One Way

[Tariki]

Apparently we are not allowed to promote alternate beliefs on this forum, so I am not able to explain this in terms of Buddhist non-dualism.........

I say this with a deep sigh of relief. Non-Dualism, just like practicing the precepts, never was my strongpoint, as far as any intellectual understanding is concerned! Some of those Mahayana texts can turn your head to jelly............or even worse..........

 

[Tariki]

Just a few more words........(I have probably said enough!)......but I am here for dialogue..........and on the "One Way" theme of this topic.....

Christianity speaks of the Word becoming flesh within time and space........following on from this..."no man comes to the Father but by me" These words are from the Gospel of St John.The prelude to this Gospel speaks of the "light that lights everyone who comes into the world"......the Eternal Word, the living Word, that the words of the Bible proclaim. Can the "me" only be the carpenter from Nazareth?

Perhaps I am allowed to say this of the Pure Land faith............the basis of our "beliefs" - the Universal Vow of Amida - can be seen as being enacted within time, or as being a representation of what is eternally true. An actual event, or as a Myth that represents the truth of "Reality-as-is".This is left to the devotee.........the path is wide for trust/grace/faith to be the basis of life as lived and experienced. And the "Pure Land" can be believed to be an actual place that lies beyond death, or as this world itself when our hearts have been opened by wisdom and compassion.

"Faith does not arise
From within oneself.
The entrusting heart is itself
Given by the Other-Power"

(one of the poems of Rennyo, one of the founders of Pure Land Buddhism)

Come just as you are......just as you are.........I will come to welcome you......I can make bits of rubble change into gold...................acceptance...........

 

[HomeBound]

Nag-ar-june-ah was a person, not a plant... though should it be, i do believe that it may be a bit much..

I know, I was just joking

Namaste homebound,

i'm afraid that i cannot expound that on this forum for a few reasons, perhaps the most important is that we are not permitted to promote alternate beliefs here. suffice it to say that, in my tradition, there is no mystery in the dying process.. we believe we have a very good understanding of what goes on and why...

Thank you for your response, I forgot we couldn't post anything that may promote other beliefs.

I too believe I have a good understanding of what occurs in the dying process as well as beyond. I'm not sure if you guys believe in reincarnation, but I do. This isn't accepted by my Christian friends, which is a shame, because the early christians held to the belief of repeatedly coming back to this earth (not as anything other than a human) as a way of correcting their soul. It answers a lot of unanswerable questions we Christians have, or in my case, have had.

As for the "ONE WAY" thing, Jesus is at that doorway (to Heaven)

I believe he welcomes ALL of us HOME with the warmest and most loving spiritual embrace we could ever possibly imagine. This overwhelming gift of love and grace sees through us and right to our hearts. At this point, a person also sees their true self, their inner good and bad. If a person went through life just pleasing themself and ignoring the very golden rule of loving others, helping others etc, then they start to condemn themselves. This self-condemnation is ultimately their ticket back here to earth (lake of fire) as another human being, or into a silent darkness. Whichever is better suited for learning what needs to be learned. It explains why some are born with handicaps or deformations.

The key to not having to come back to this earth is listening to what Jesus taught when he was here, to love as he loved. The gospel is what Jesus taught about God and the kingdom of God, NOT the biography of Jesus (as many Christians think). Merely believing that Jesus existed and is the Son of God is not what is meant as the "ONE WAY" but to TRY to live and love as Jesus did, and to know of Gods unconditional love.

 

[Tariki]

Homebound,

This is what I love about forums such as this.............I make unfortunate asumptions concerning the people who post, based upon my own conditioning and experience. Anyway, thank you for your post.

I would just like to say that in general the Buddhist view of "rebirth" is totally different from your own ideas concerning reincarnation. We are our karma, it is not a "force" outside of ourselves............and the Buddhist view concerning the "workings" of karma is extremely subtle - as expounded in such texts as the Majjhima Nikaya. In my understanding there is no way in which it could be used to explain those human beings born with handicaps or deformations.

Just a quick question...............do you therefore see those currently living as a mixture of "new souls" just created, and "old souls" who never "made it"? Not a "trick" question, I am just curious.

Thank you.



P.S. As far as the Theravada tradition is concerned, "karma-result" is one of the four unthinkables..........Acinteyya........."such thinking is senseless, has nothing to do with genuine pure conduct, does not lead to..........peace, enlightenment, nirvana........."

 

[chipdouglas]

Hi all!

I find it very strange that any self-respecting monotheistic religion that upholds truth, mercy and justice could claim, "Our way or the highway..to hell." To me, this smacks of spiritual arrogance. (Isn't humility a virtue?) I cannot believe that a just, merciful and loving God could teach such a thing.

Judaism most definitely does NOT believe that it's "our way or the highway...to hell" (i.e. We don't believe that all non-Jews will go to hell). Our Sages say that, "The righteous of all nations have a share in the world-to-come." Doesn't Jonah 4:10-11 show us that God cares for all of humanity?

We believe that whereas there are 613 precepts/commandments in the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy; our most basic scripture) that are incumbent/binding on Jews, there are only 7 that are binding on non-Jews. Using the traditional methods of Jewish Biblical exegesis, our Sages infer these 7 precepts from Genesis 9:1-17 & believe that God gave them to Noah & his sons. Since Noah & sons were not Jewish, we refer to these 7 precepts as the 7 Noahide Precepts. The 7 are: 1) To establish courts of justice; 2) No blasphemy; 3) No idolatry; 4) No incest/adultery; 5) Do not shed blood; 6) Do not steal & 7) Do not cut meat from a living animal.

Be well!

ssv

i keep hearing non-Christians say (in short) "If God is such a just and merciful God, then why would he let anyone go to hell" (whether it be temporarily or permanently). do you really think this is enough "evidence" to invalidate the religion? just because God is said to be just and merciful, does that mean that he's not permitted to draw the line anywhere; that he never really means business? i'm not exactly sure about my religion, but i do believe there is an afterlife and i do believe there is a God. i have yet to decide whether Judaism or Christianity best fits my beliefs overall, but i find it bizarre that this many people think the fact that God could potentially mean business is ample proof that Christianity is flawed. and i just have to say something about an argument like this that is so flawed from the beginning. i guess this could go for christians and jews.

 

[Tariki]

i keep hearing non-Christians say (in short) "If God is such a just and merciful God, then why would he let anyone go to hell" (whether it be temporarily or permanently). do you really think this is enough "evidence" to invalidate the religion? just because God is said to be just and merciful, does that mean that he's not permitted to draw the line anywhere; that he never really means business? i'm not exactly sure about my religion, but i do believe there is an afterlife and i do believe there is a God. i have yet to decide whether Judaism or Christianity best fits my beliefs overall, but i find it bizarre that this many people think the fact that God could potentially mean business is ample proof that Christianity is flawed. and i just have to say something about an argument like this that is so flawed from the beginning. i guess this could go for christians and jews.

Perhaps its a case of what anyone really believes God's "business" is..............

 

[vajradhara]

Thank you for your response, I forgot we couldn't post anything that may promote other beliefs.

I too believe I have a good understanding of what occurs in the dying process as well as beyond. I'm not sure if you guys believe in reincarnation, but I do. This isn't accepted by my Christian friends, which is a shame, because the early christians held to the belief of repeatedly coming back to this earth (not as anything other than a human) as a way of correcting their soul. It answers a lot of unanswerable questions we Christians have, or in my case, have had.

As for the "ONE WAY" thing, Jesus is at that doorway (to Heaven)

I believe he welcomes ALL of us HOME with the warmest and most loving spiritual embrace we could ever possibly imagine. This overwhelming gift of love and grace sees through us and right to our hearts. At this point, a person also sees their true self, their inner good and bad. If a person went through life just pleasing themself and ignoring the very golden rule of loving others, helping others etc, then they start to condemn themselves. This self-condemnation is ultimately their ticket back here to earth (lake of fire) as another human being, or into a silent darkness. Whichever is better suited for learning what needs to be learned. It explains why some are born with handicaps or deformations.

The key to not having to come back to this earth is listening to what Jesus taught when he was here, to love as he loved. The gospel is what Jesus taught about God and the kingdom of God, NOT the biography of Jesus (as many Christians think). Merely believing that Jesus existed and is the Son of God is not what is meant as the "ONE WAY" but to TRY to live and love as Jesus did, and to know of Gods unconditional love.

Namaste homebound,

i've posted two threads related to the concept of rebirth or reincarnation in other traditions, specifically Christian and Judaism. you should be able to find them on the site...

reincarnation and rebirth are understood differently... basically, reincarnation would mean that you, this entity keeps coming back until things are such that you don't. whereas rebirth is something more subtle than that.. it's not "you" coming back, i.e. this same entity, though it's a part of this entity, it is, in a way, the divine spark, that keeps coming back, manifesting in whichever form is indicated by it's karmic influences.

as i posted in another thread, we (Vajrayana) Buddhists would consider Jesus to be a Bodhisattva.. one that has vowed to save all sentient beings from suffering! this is a valid spiritual path that can lead one, eventually to enlightenment. there would, perhaps, be some Buddhist schools that would not concur with this sentiment.

tariki, thank you for your contribution to the forum

i had rather thought you were a Pure Land Buddhist from your postings... i didn't realize you had practiced the Theravedan tradition prior to that. it would appear that we have a different view of karma and how it works, as i believe that it quite adequately accounts for the differences in birth between high and low, prodigy and idiot, heathly or ill.

i look forward to your postings!

gassho.

 

[Tariki]

tariki, thank you for your contribution to the forum

i had rather thought you were a Pure Land Buddhist from your postings... i didn't realize you had practiced the Theravedan tradition prior to that. it would appear that we have a different view of karma and how it works, as i believe that it quite adequately accounts for the differences in birth between high and low, prodigy and idiot, heathly or ill.

i look forward to your postings!

gassho.

Vaj,

To be honest, I did come to think that my previous words about Buddhist teachings that "could" never be used to explain people with handicaps etc should have been modifed to "should" or "would"............as I said, in the Theravada tradition there are the four unthinkables, one of which is "karma-vipaka".....the consequences of karma.........over which, the Buddha said, it was senseless to brood or think upon, as not leading to the heartwood of the dharma.

I think I was more influenced by the opinions of Homebound in terms of classic "reincarnation" and wishing to disassociate the Buddhist teachings from them. In terms of "souls" returning again and again........the "same" person"...........this would seem to imply for me a sickening judgement of others that has no place in the development of wisdom and compassion ( I would just add that this is what it implies for me, I accuse Homebound of nothing...........I'll even give him/her the few blessings I have left!!)

(I would say that if you stir in a heady mixture of different "dharma gates" where, for instance, Bodhisattvas come to rebirth voluntarily,in various guises to bring all to awakening..................I think it becomes very problamatic to make any judgement about anyone concerning what they may or may not have "learnt" in a previous life and why they are as they are in this one!...........anyone may be an "angel" in disguise, calling us not to judgement of them, but to enter into the mutuality of compassion and understanding..........giving and receiving.....leaning upon each other and learning from each other........)

Thanks

P.S. I am off on holiday for a week.............perhaps unable to access a PC.

 

[JEREMY O'ROURKE]

Jesus is the only way because he is the only one that raised himself from the dead. He healed the sick and did alot of miracles. He is the only true God.

 

[mo.mentum]

Jeremy.

Jesus did all those miracles with God's Leave, not by his own volition or will. Just as Moses split the seas and Noah built the arc. All miraculous acts performed by men like you and I, but whom God blessed and Willed them to be successful in this world and the Hereafter.

If a miracle is the only prerequisite to Godliness..then all the prophets should be labelled as Gods.

The only true God, is God.

PS: I might be a tad off topic as i skipped the first 4 pages of this post

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

ChipDouglas posted:

i keep hearing non-Christians say (in short) "If God is such a just and merciful God, then why would he let anyone go to hell" (whether it be temporarily or permanently). do you really think this is enough "evidence" to invalidate the religion? just because God is said to be just and merciful, does that mean that he's not permitted to draw the line anywhere; that he never really means business? i'm not exactly sure about my religion, but i do believe there is an afterlife and i do believe there is a God. i have yet to decide whether Judaism or Christianity best fits my beliefs overall, but i find it bizarre that this many people think the fact that God could potentially mean business is ample proof that Christianity is flawed. and i just have to say something about an argument like this that is so flawed from the beginning. i guess this could go for christians and jews.

Well, we certainly believe that God is just & merciful and we believe thatHe's permitted to draw the line & mean business (so to speak). The question, I think, is do you believe that God draws the line, means business, etc. based on what we believe or what we actually do. Look at Jonah 3:10, regarding the residents of Nineveh:

"And God saw their ACTIONS, that they turned from their evil way..."

Judaism believes that we are defined by our actions, not our beliefs (see Exodus 24:7, "...and they said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will DO and we will hear"; first we said that we would DO and then we said that we would hear). We believe that no Jew will necessarily be rewarded because of what he/she believes, just as we believe that no non-Jew will be condemned to Hell because of what he/she believes. Rather, the question of reward & punishment is based on what we, as Jews and non-Jews, DO. Thus, our Sages saying that, "The righteous of ALL nations have a share in the world-to-come," with "righteous" meaning "righteous in actions" not "righteous in beliefs."

Be well!

ssv

 

[mo.mentum]

In order to resolve the ONE WAY dilemma, it is imperative that we seperate Jesus from God.

If we consider God to be God, then it is easy to concieve that He gave different cultures and poeples their own ways of worshipping Him, hence creating no conflict between different faiths, but a quest for greater understanding.

By combining the two into one being, we would be asking other faiths to concede to Christ as the only way to salvation and also to compromise their own beliefs. Obviously, not something everyone is happy to do.

As long as a faith promotes mercy, love, peace and some sort of belief in a higher, unique and transcendantal power..than it must be a valid religion, to a certain extent! But who are we to judge, He is the best of Judges in the end anyway....

This approach would create a big family of faiths instead of a clash....IN MY OPINION

A Union of Faiths to combat the rising tide of atheisms and immoral practices in society. Stem the tide of warmongering, oppression and economic exploitation. Aaaahhhh one day.....

 

[mo.mentum]

Judaism believes that we are defined by our actions, not our beliefs (see Exodus 24:7, "...and they said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will DO and we will hear"; first we said that we would DO and then we said that we would hear). We believe that no Jew will necessarily be rewarded because of what he/she believes, just as we believe that no non-Jew will be condemned to Hell because of what he/she believes. Rather, the question of reward & punishment is based on what we, as Jews and non-Jews, DO. Thus, our Sages saying that, "The righteous of ALL nations have a share in the world-to-come," with "righteous" meaning "righteous in actions" not "righteous in beliefs."

I am 100% with you on this one. Deeds take precedence over belief. A non-believing person who is good in general may yet receive salvation. But a believing person who spreads corruption upon the earth will have no place in heaven.

Yet another common ground for Muslims and Jews = Deeds over Belief.

Salaam. Shalom. Peace.

 

[supermagdalena]

No one's still answered my question. How do you define good? Where do you draw the line?

Mo.mentum, what faith are you? I can't tell yet and am curious.

 

[mo.mentum]

No one's still answered my question. How do you define good? Where do you draw the line?

Mo.mentum, what faith are you? I can't tell yet and am curious.

Hey Mag.

Hmm good question. Humans cannot define what is good or evil on their own. They cannot because they don't have the capacity for Absolute understanding. We can't see both sides of the coin at the same time.

That is why God has sent us His prophets, messengers and saints as guides to all of mankind. Throughout time, as part of His covenant with mankind, God has sent to all people in all places their own prophets.

The line between good and evil is drawn by God through His messengers. In every case, the messengers are rejected by their own poeple. And when the people do succumb and follow their prophet, a few generations later they revert to superstitious beliefs and man-made laws which cause harm and oppression.

This is the patter.

PS: I am a Muslim, which simply means "One who submits to the Will of God" in Arabic.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Mo.mentum posted:

Deeds take precedence over belief. A non-believing person who is good in general may yet receive salvation. But a believing person who spreads corruption upon the earth will have no place in heaven.

Well said!

Yet another common ground for Muslims and Jews = Deeds over Belief.

Correct!

Be well!

ssv

 

[vajradhara]

Vaj,

To be honest, I did come to think that my previous words about Buddhist teachings that "could" never be used to explain people with handicaps etc should have been modifed to "should" or "would"............as I said, in the Theravada tradition there are the four unthinkables, one of which is "karma-vipaka".....the consequences of karma.........over which, the Buddha said, it was senseless to brood or think upon, as not leading to the heartwood of the dharma.

I think I was more influenced by the opinions of Homebound in terms of classic "reincarnation" and wishing to disassociate the Buddhist teachings from them. In terms of "souls" returning again and again........the "same" person"...........this would seem to imply for me a sickening judgement of others that has no place in the development of wisdom and compassion ( I would just add that this is what it implies for me, I accuse Homebound of nothing...........I'll even give him/her the few blessings I have left!!)

(I would say that if you stir in a heady mixture of different "dharma gates" where, for instance, Bodhisattvas come to rebirth voluntarily,in various guises to bring all to awakening..................I think it becomes very problamatic to make any judgement about anyone concerning what they may or may not have "learnt" in a previous life and why they are as they are in this one!...........anyone may be an "angel" in disguise, calling us not to judgement of them, but to enter into the mutuality of compassion and understanding..........giving and receiving.....leaning upon each other and learning from each other........)

Thanks

P.S. I am off on holiday for a week.............perhaps unable to access a PC.

Namaste Tariki,

i hope you enjoy your vacation!

in our school, it's not so much that one cannot think of the reprecussions of karma, rather, it's that one cannot fully fathom their workings. some understanding of the fuction of karma and how it works is, in our opinion, required.. though only a completely enlightened being and truly understand all the ramifications of karma. so.. we engage in some analysis of how and why karma is generated and leave it at that

i absolutely agree with you concerning reincarnation. it's quite often interchangeably used with rebirth to mean the same thing... when it doesn't i'm having a very interesting discussion with a few people on another site concerning Zen and their non-belief in rebirth. they are, apparantly, following a teacher that claims that rebirth is nonsense... even though it's plainly expounded in the Sutrayana. it's been an interesting discussion so far...

indeed... in the final analysis, all we can really ascertain is that the consciousness has manifested once more... and we cannot know why. not to say that some people can't know why, however, that is far beyond my capability.

 

[supermagdalena]

Glad to see you here, mo.mentum.

I differ in belief...I believe that deep down we do know right from wrong, we just ignore it most of the time. It's easier to be sure. That why I believe in Jesus...I believe He sent His Son to save us because we could not save ourselves. I think that good works are good, but they're icing on the cake. By themselves, they're worth nothing, just as much as faith without works is useless. For me, it goes together. Nothing we can do can make God love us more or less because we did nothing to make Him love us in the first place!

That's really my only response is to share my doctrine.

So, you're a muslim, that interests me in itself. What kind of faith do you follow...rules, traditions, etc.?

Everytime I get on here I find that I know so little about other religions. I like to be informed and it interests me.

Thanks!
-Supermag

 

[mo.mentum]

Glad to see you here, mo.mentum.

I differ in belief...I believe that deep down we do know right from wrong, we just ignore it most of the time. It's easier to be sure. That why I believe in Jesus...I believe He sent His Son to save us because we could not save ourselves. I think that good works are good, but they're icing on the cake. By themselves, they're worth nothing, just as much as faith without works is useless. For me, it goes together. Nothing we can do can make God love us more or less because we did nothing to make Him love us in the first place!

That's really my only response is to share my doctrine.

So, you're a muslim, that interests me in itself. What kind of faith do you follow...rules, traditions, etc.?

Everytime I get on here I find that I know so little about other religions. I like to be informed and it interests me.

Thanks!
-Supermag

Hey SuperMag Peace unto you.

Your reasoning is sound and the way you explained sure does make sense. Much better than some of the bigots I've encountered on these forums

A good life has several pillars, these include faith, deeds and struggle. Not one of these can be complete without the other. Now as to what will gain you repentance and atonement, we each have our own views and i respect that!

Hi, My name Mo.Mentum and I'm a Muslim.

Hmmm your question about Islam is too wide to sum up in this post. But basics, Muslims see God as Asbolutely and Eternally Unique and One. So the concept of Trinity of Jesus as Son of God poses a little problem for us.

But, we do believe that God has sent 1000s of prophets to mankind since Adam and Eve (yes we believe in them too). Every prophet came with the same message to mankind "Your Lord God is One" and to basiclaly be modest in our actions and behaviour towards others.

Jesus is one of the 5 highly honored Messengers of God. (Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, Muhammad)

Islam doesn't see itself as a new religion, but the original faith given to Abraham (the first true Monotheist). Since mankind tends to fall back into ignorance and supersitious beliefs, the original teachings of God always get lost, hence the many prophets. Muhammad is considered to be the "Seal of Prophets" and his mission was to restablish the Abrahamic faith once and for all.

Oh ya, our holy book is the Qur'an which means "The Recited Book" and is God's literal Word, which Muhammad received through the Archangel Gabriel.

I fear I've said too much off topic. PM me if needed.

 

[supermagdalena]

Wow, how much of that I didn't know scares me I like to learn about other faiths...I think it could do us all good to learn about beliefs that differ from ours so we aren't judging the whole by a few bad apples or just acting in ignorance. Cultures and religions also interest me personally.

I don't think you're too off topic! I love hearing about this stuff. I apologize for any bigots you've encountered...some people act out of haste and give Christians a bad name. A lot of people are just misinformed and immature in their faith, I'm pretty half-grown faithwise myself!

Thanks and God Bless,
-Supermag