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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
HomeBound
Learning in the meantime
Well at face value it doesn't seem just. I agree to that.
However, there are other religions that have that DOOR into Heaven. For most of us westerners, it is Jesus, I don't mean to believe he existed and was killed (Which most Christians think)
But to express the love he taught us. All the right religions have this "love your neighbor" KEY
It's amazing how much it is ignored, and instead they think the KEY is to accept him as lord and savior.
However, there are other religions that have that DOOR into Heaven. For most of us westerners, it is Jesus, I don't mean to believe he existed and was killed (Which most Christians think)
But to express the love he taught us. All the right religions have this "love your neighbor" KEY
It's amazing how much it is ignored, and instead they think the KEY is to accept him as lord and savior.
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mo.mentum said:
I have to interject here. Although this a Christian perspective, the main content applies accross the board.
The main problem with your statement is belief. It is easy to belive. That's a passive mental activity. It is the time to act on that belief that speaks volumes of you. It is only by faith that you can authenticate God's word. Faith puts you on the battlefield, i.e., spiritually speaking. You then know if God is real or not and if He is to be trusted. Without faith, the scriptures are just words. They may give you a sense of security and comfort, but no advancement to God's glory.
You said, "A non-believing person who is good in general may yet receive salvation". Absolutely not! Jesus clearly defines the path of salvation in terms that eliminate guesswork or uncertainity.
You said, "Deeds take precedence over belief." Absolutely not unless perhaps you don't care about eternity. 1st comes belief, 2nd: faith (action based upon that belief) and 3rd:deeds (produced from the fruit of The Holy Spirit). A fourth element is confidence which keeps faith going.
According to Mat 7:22, good works of your own will are futile attempts to please God and have no eternal gains. You can do all of the good you want, but eternally, you loose. Why is that so hard of a concept to understand?
When you put your works on the table as an attempt to find favor with God, you are, in essence, saying that this is what I have deemed to be good enough for you, God. I didn't have to ask God what was good, because what I have done is something positive in my eyes. It has helped someone; so now be happy God; after all, I did it for you, God.
You expose yourself to the assumption that all good comes from God. And clearly, it doesn't. Since something produces a good result, it is therefore, good. Nope! I feel it is Good, so it must be. Nope! By your very attempt, you fail to see that you are making the judgement and not God. You judge something to be good and then boldly assume that it's OK. NOPE!
All matters of eternity are dictated by God. He tells us what is good and what isn't good - not you or me. His standards of goodness are supreme. He plainly tells us in the Bible. Why do people want to put things in their authority and not let God define the method and means for them?
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Well, since God gave us reason, intellect and a freedom to choose, why can we only be good through a Holy Spirit? He was arguing that through our faith, the Holy Spirit guides us to good deeds, not ourselves. This is contradictory to the freedom of choice. And that all good deeds done by one's own volition is fruitless.
But since many non-Christians do good deeds in their lives, there must be good in us without need for the Holy Spirit. So why do we need it?
Yes all of us have been created by God's Breath, and we all have Souls that are holy because they stem from Him. I don't see how we'd need another spirit to come upon us to incite us to do good if we're capable of doing it anyway.
It would be such a waste that all these poeple would go to Hell just because they didn't accept or know Jesus to be the saviour. If in fact He is a Merciful and Just God, then everyone must have an equal shot.
But since many non-Christians do good deeds in their lives, there must be good in us without need for the Holy Spirit. So why do we need it?
Yes all of us have been created by God's Breath, and we all have Souls that are holy because they stem from Him. I don't see how we'd need another spirit to come upon us to incite us to do good if we're capable of doing it anyway.
It would be such a waste that all these poeple would go to Hell just because they didn't accept or know Jesus to be the saviour. If in fact He is a Merciful and Just God, then everyone must have an equal shot.
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supermagdalena
The Shrubs and the Flan.
Homebound, sorry if this seems rude or something...your profile says you attend a Baptist church and that surprises me with your beliefs (I once attended Baptist church). That just confuses me a bit.
How are your beliefs justified by God's Word the Bible? I'd like to see some.
Thanks!
God Bless,
-Supermag
How are your beliefs justified by God's Word the Bible? I'd like to see some.
Thanks!
God Bless,
-Supermag
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Other religions and beliefes have truth in them and are respected for that, but only Jesus is the Truth.
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And you can prove that extraordinary claim right?
No??
Well then it's really nothing more than an unsupported claim.
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There's the key. You "proved" it for yourself but not in a way that could be meaningful to an objective scrutiney. In other words you formed a belief based on your experiences. You still havn't actually "proved" anything.
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HomeBound
Learning in the meantime
BIBLE VERSE: "Jesus answered them, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" (John 14:6)
Jesus was certainly not an egotist. Because he often spoke in parables, it would be wise to interpret this verse in light of the other teachings of Christ. Jesus came to show the way to heaven and that way is God, the light that is love. Nobody can come to God except through the example set by Christ, a life lived in unconditional love for everyone. This is God. The light of Jesus is God and God is love. Jesus is the way-shower, the example we must follow, the life of love we must live, that leads us to God.
Jesus was certainly not an egotist. Because he often spoke in parables, it would be wise to interpret this verse in light of the other teachings of Christ. Jesus came to show the way to heaven and that way is God, the light that is love. Nobody can come to God except through the example set by Christ, a life lived in unconditional love for everyone. This is God. The light of Jesus is God and God is love. Jesus is the way-shower, the example we must follow, the life of love we must live, that leads us to God.
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Except we really don't know what Christ taught, or said, or did. All we have is a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of a copy of a lost manuscript of a copy of an oral tradition of a story of a man whom some people think is God.
If you could show some substantive evidence that the Bible is an accurate reflection of Christ maybe then we could reasonably debate the merits of what he may have said.
If you could show some substantive evidence that the Bible is an accurate reflection of Christ maybe then we could reasonably debate the merits of what he may have said.
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I have to agree with Havoc on this one. There's too much interference between what we have in the Bible and the real events. Too many translations and too many copies along the way.
It's normal for a person translating from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to interpret the "son of God" as "The Son of God". Or to take the aramaic "Nabi" as in "prophet of", and misread it to be "Bani" or "child of".
It's normal for a person translating from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to interpret the "son of God" as "The Son of God". Or to take the aramaic "Nabi" as in "prophet of", and misread it to be "Bani" or "child of".
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While we have the original Koran written on banana leaves I suppose.
The irony here is that I accept the basic accuracy of the Koran because, as with the NT, there is not a shred of evidence it was tampered with aside from a few verses at the end of Mark which appear in some translations and not others. There are no other major differences in the versions. Saying all we have is "a copy of a copy" proves nothing. If there were divergent concurrent stories, how come we don't have copies of copies of the the others????
Oh wait I know. They were all tracked down and burned by the Catholics before Nicea. They found every last one in the world and burned them while leaving the writings of 50 other heretics intact. NOT! It doesn't take the brightest bulb in the chandalier to expose the intellectual hypocrisy in these theories.
And the very fact that scholars know WHAT was tampered with only helps to verify the pedigree.
Nice try though Momentum. At least now we know you don't believe anything we do because you have no way to verify it, while we of course must venerate the flawless Koran.
Rad
The irony here is that I accept the basic accuracy of the Koran because, as with the NT, there is not a shred of evidence it was tampered with aside from a few verses at the end of Mark which appear in some translations and not others. There are no other major differences in the versions. Saying all we have is "a copy of a copy" proves nothing. If there were divergent concurrent stories, how come we don't have copies of copies of the the others????
Oh wait I know. They were all tracked down and burned by the Catholics before Nicea. They found every last one in the world and burned them while leaving the writings of 50 other heretics intact. NOT! It doesn't take the brightest bulb in the chandalier to expose the intellectual hypocrisy in these theories.
And the very fact that scholars know WHAT was tampered with only helps to verify the pedigree.
Nice try though Momentum. At least now we know you don't believe anything we do because you have no way to verify it, while we of course must venerate the flawless Koran.
Rad
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Momentum of course fails to report that at one point, all copies of the Koran not approved by Caliph Uthman were recalled and burned. The pedigree of the Koran is unsure. There WERE variant versions and copies by the Caliph's own admission so Momentum has a few bats in his own belfry here.
Nevertheless, I see no witch worthy of burning, but then I don't depend on conjecture and cynical innuendo to arrive at my conclusions about the Koran. It is essentially accurate, a real time account, being first hand or taken from first hand sources and notes, written in the lifetime of those near Muhammed, just as the NT was.
The hadith and some traditions are another story, much like the come lately gospel of Thomas.
Rad
Nevertheless, I see no witch worthy of burning, but then I don't depend on conjecture and cynical innuendo to arrive at my conclusions about the Koran. It is essentially accurate, a real time account, being first hand or taken from first hand sources and notes, written in the lifetime of those near Muhammed, just as the NT was.
The hadith and some traditions are another story, much like the come lately gospel of Thomas.
Rad
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Around 50 AD a non Christian historian tried to explain the darkness which came over the land during the crucifixion, asserting it was a purely natural phenomena. Thus the darkness was a subject of widespread debate.
Then we have the non-Christian refs to Christ, to wit:
The Roman official Tacitus:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures a class hated for their abominations, people called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [AD 14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals 15.44.
Seutonius, a Roman Historian.
"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]." Life of Claudius.
The Jewish Talmud:
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged. . . but since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover." Babylonia Sanhedrin 43A
Phlegin, a historian who lived in the 1st century:
"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." De. opif. mund. II21
Lucian, a person hostile to Christians in the 2nd Century:
"The Christians. . . worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced this new cult, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt for death and self devotion . . . their lawgiver [taught] they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take on faith . . . " The Passing Peregrinus"
Pliny, a roman senator:
Christians were "meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to do wicked deeds, never commit fraud, theft, adultery, not to lie nor to deny a trust. . . " Epistles X96
The following quote from Book 20 Chapter 9 Paragraph 1 of Josephus work is interesting:
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."
Thus we have independent verification he existed, did things which caused huge numbers of followers to go to their deaths (unlike the small numbers which follow nuts like Jim Jones) that there was at least a solar eclipse as the NT records on the day of his death, that Christ's vision of human brotherhood is documented, that converts sung hymns to him as to God, that Jews were converted by his message, that he was crucified (which Islam laughably denies), and that he had a brother named James, whose writings we have as well.
The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is not mentioned in the NT writings, and unless you can prove the cynical assumption they were edited to appear to have been written earlier, we know they were written within about 40 years of Jesus' death.
Rad
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