One Way

[Hank]

My two cents.

I still read the bible. It philosophy differs from Buddhism and Hinduism, but it does apply to humans, and I do use for my life at times, it fits me.

Sample
Proverbs 15:21-23 (NIV)
Folly delights a man who lacks judgment,
but a man of understanding keeps a straight course.
Plans fail for lack of counsel,
but with many advisers they succeed.
A man finds joy in giving an apt reply-
and how good is a timely word!

In other words, rejecting one philosophy for another after reviewing both is quite valid. If you believe in a God, I think the Christian explanation of our existence is the most powerful. The advantage to use the Bible as a foundation for philosophy is that the book is comprised from various sources and writers. In essence there are many ways described in it and not just one way.

Hinduism accepts Christ as send from god to attempt bring peace. Diplomatic as always.

Buddhism, oh well – speaking about truths, and one way – to put it mildly: It clearly is one loser's definition about the truths of life and how to deal with it.

 

[Tariki]

Okay. Question. How do you define a "good person"? Where do you draw the line?

I would say that a truly good person would be someone who had no idea that they were "good"..................self-righteousness is a great enemy.

Hank,

The Buddha declared.............."I teach this and this alone, suffering and the ending of suffering." It speaks of 84000 gateways to such an ending...........in effect that there is a path for all...........or perhaps, all who stand at the door and knock?.............(although as far as Pure Land Buddhism is concerned, even "knocking" would be seen as "self-power" rather than ultimate reliance upon "other-power"...........as the Christian John Donne wrote............"Grace, if though repent, thou cans't not lack...yet who shall give ye that grace to begin?"..............and Rennyo, one of the founders of Pure Land (Shin Buddhism)........."Faith does not arise from within one's self. The entrusting heart is itself given by the Other-Power."

To walk a path towards the end of suffering for oneself - leading to seeking the end of suffering for all, as the mind/heart opens...........

Is this the way of a "loser"?

 

[Hank]

Hank,

The Buddha declared.............."I teach this and this alone, suffering and the ending of suffering." It speaks of 84000 gateways to such an ending...........in effect that there is a path for all...........or perhaps, all who stand at the door and knock?.............(although as far as Pure Land Buddhism is concerned, even "knocking" would be seen as "self-power" rather than ultimate reliance upon "other-power"...........as the Christian John Donne wrote............"Grace, if though repent, thou cans't not lack...yet who shall give ye that grace to begin?"..............and Rennyo, one of the founders of Pure Land (Shin Buddhism)........."Faith does not arise from within one's self. The entrusting heart is itself given by the Other-Power."

To walk a path towards the end of suffering for oneself - leading to seeking the end of suffering for all, as the mind/heart opens...........

Is this the way of a "loser"?

Prolly to strongly worded. :o

I do not accept Buddha's findings as true or applicable to my life.

If you like I tone down my assertions and we can debate Buddhism. I think it teaches avoidance of inevitable conflicts of life. It teaches that life is a perception and the biggest problem is one self. (as shown partly in your post)

I think suffering is temporary and part of life. To end it one needs to end life. I prefer to struggle through, be greedy and be angered and alter injustice rather then stand by and accept it.

 

[supermagdalena]

I would say that a truly good person would be someone who had no idea that they were "good"..................self-righteousness is a great enemy.

I agree with that to a point, but I have to modify it. Your way, the only way to "make it", so to speak, would be to know that you won't. Humility to the point of pessimism, which is no way to live. It's a happy philosophy but it doesn't work.

All of us make mistakes, and all of us blatantly have done things wrong. It's how we are.

So I would say that a truly good person is one who knows that they are not good, and can acknowledge that they can't "make the grade" on their own. In other words, one who can admit that they are not good and can not be, because even if you don't do or say anything wrong, you're going to think something wrong.

Here's a way that makes sense to me...There's a glass of pure, clean water and a glass of dirty water. If you pour that dirty water into the clean water, the whole thing's dirty, right? Well, say the dirty water only had a little bit of dirt in it compared to the other dirty water. It's still dirty, correct? And it still can't be poured into the other water without making the whole thing dirty.

Tariki, I really hope I'm not just babbling and that I'm making sense!

God Bless,
-Supermag

 

[bigfws]

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it

 

[Tariki]

Prolly to strongly worded. :o

I do not accept Buddha's findings as true or applicable to my life.

If you like I tone down my assertions and we can debate Buddhism. I think it teaches avoidance of inevitable conflicts of life. It teaches that life is a perception and the biggest problem is one self. (as shown partly in your post)

I think suffering is temporary and part of life. To end it one needs to end life. I prefer to struggle through, be greedy and be angered and alter injustice rather then stand by and accept it.

Hank,

Thanks for the feedback!

From what I have seen and experienced, I would say that anyone's faith, philosophy, creed (or whatever) can lead to avoiding conflict...............I detect it often in myself. Whether or not Buddhism inevitably leads to such avoidance is open to question................the dharma says "ehipassiko"..........a sanskrit word meaning "come and see (for oneself)" . The invitation is an open one!

As far as the problem being ones "self"...............from the point of view of the full implications of Grace, I would say yes. Pure Land Buddhism teaches that it is a necessary stage on the path where "self-power" is also appreciated, in reflection, as the working of "Other-Power". We can look back at what we have "accepted", "learnt", "accumulated" - as a bee stores its honey!.........yet all this is ultimately the work of Grace. I believe in Ephesians it says that "we were chosen before the foundation of the world"................as Desmond Tutu once said...........this means that nothing we can do can make God love us more, nothing we can do can make God love us less. Pure grace. The "self" is always a problem............

Just a word on "suffering and the ending of suffering"..............the word suffering is a transaltion of the word Dukkha.............it can also be translated as unsatisfactoriness. "Duh".............a prefix meaning anything not good - bad, ill or wrong. "Kha"........derived from "chakra", meaning wheel..........so, an ill-fitting wheel, giving us a jarring ride, never totally comfortable, never at ones ease. The Buddha's insight was that a life lived from "I" , "me" or "mine", thinking that a little more of what we like and little less of what we hate will bring us ultimate joy.........that this context for living is "suffering"....that there is no way out, round or through within such dualities. That in a relative sense, there is joy and sorrow, happiness and sadness..............this is not denied. Consider the words put into a Christian context................"I teach this and this alone, the Fall of Man and his total depravity...and redemption/new creation in Christ"

In part, salvation/enlightenment/trancending of the opposites, comes from acceptance, not avoidence of the conflict............or as the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart said......"They can truly enjoy the feast who would just as willingly fast."

Thanks

 

[Tariki]

I agree with that to a point, but I have to modify it. Your way, the only way to "make it", so to speak, would be to know that you won't. Humility to the point of pessimism, which is no way to live. It's a happy philosophy but it doesn't work.

All of us make mistakes, and all of us blatantly have done things wrong. It's how we are.

So I would say that a truly good person is one who knows that they are not good, and can acknowledge that they can't "make the grade" on their own. In other words, one who can admit that they are not good and can not be, because even if you don't do or say anything wrong, you're going to think something wrong.

Here's a way that makes sense to me...There's a glass of pure, clean water and a glass of dirty water. If you pour that dirty water into the clean water, the whole thing's dirty, right? Well, say the dirty water only had a little bit of dirt in it compared to the other dirty water. It's still dirty, correct? And it still can't be poured into the other water without making the whole thing dirty.

Tariki, I really hope I'm not just babbling and that I'm making sense!

God Bless,
-Supermag

Dear supermagdalena - BTW, what a glorious name!!!! - you can leave the babbling to me, I do enough of it! You do make sense....................if my defintion implied any conflict with your words then there is misunderstanding. To be human is to be imperfect..............to accept our imperfections is the first step to the acceptance of others, all imperfect like ourselves.... "Mutual forgiveness of each vice opens the gates to paradise" (William Blake)

Often Buddhist "enlightenment" is misunderstood as some kind of exalted "perfection".................yet when asked to give a description of the miracles of the Buddhist faith the master said.........."When I'm happy I laugh, when I'm sad I cry....these are the miracles of my religion"

And a Zen Koan.........."A clearly enlightened person falls into a well.How is this so?"

There is a book you might like to read..........."The Spirituality of Imperfection" by Ernest Kurtz and Katherine Ketcham. It is sub-titled "Storytelling and the Journey to Wholeness". Full of wonderful Hasidic tales and other stories and wisdom from around the world......

One of the "Buddhist" stories..............

Master Shaku Soen liked to take an evening stroll through a nearby village. One day he heard loud lamentation from a house and , on entering quietly, realized that the householder had died and the family and neighbours were crying. He sat down and cried with them. An old man noticed him and remarked, rather shaken on seeing the famous master crying with them: "I would have thought that you at least were beyond such things." "But it is this which puts me beyond it," replied the Master between his tears.

(And another word to Hank.............the above story gives a good idea of what a Buddhist would mean by "reaching the end of suffering".........or "the transcending of the opposites")

Thanks

 

[Tariki]

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it

BIGFWS,

Buddhists would call it the "middle way"............yes, very narrow indeed, easy to miss and to fall either side. Yet there is always a lot to learn from the fall..............

"If there be anywhere on earth a lover of God who is always kept safe, I know nothing of it, for it was not shown to me. But this was shown: that in falling and rising again we are always kept in that same precious love." (Julian of Norwich)

And while quoting the Christian mystics...........

"If we wish to be sure of the road we tread on, we should close our eyes and walk in the dark" (St John of the Cross)

Thanks

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Thank you for bearing with me. Lessee here...

TWells posted:

The straw man I was referring to was your simplified view of the Christian doctrine of Hell.

You wouldn't believe how many Christians I've met in various cyberforums who have told me that I am definitely going to hell simply because I do not accept/recognize/acknowledge Jesus (although I've met very manner Christians who disagree vehemently).

I find it odd that a monotheistic religion with central truths like the Shema and Decalogue no longer finds it neccesary to worship and serve that Lord only.

Jews MUST serve & worship that Lord only but we believe that non-Jews need not as long as they adhere to the 7 precepts that I referred to in my first (I think) post.

I would agree with you that we have no way to comprehend the vastness of God other than what He has revealed to us.

We agree on something! Let's go get a beer!

ssv...Im at work and typed my reply up in a hurry so if my "tone" sounded harsh or flippant I apologize as that wasnt my intent

Let's get a (kosher, please) pizza to go with that beer!

Be well!

ssv

 

[supermagdalena]

Dear supermagdalena - BTW, what a glorious name!!!! - you can leave the babbling to me, I do enough of it! You do make sense....................if my defintion implied any conflict with your words then there is misunderstanding. To be human is to be imperfect..............to accept our imperfections is the first step to the acceptance of others, all imperfect like ourselves.... "Mutual forgiveness of each vice opens the gates to paradise" (William Blake)

Often Buddhist "enlightenment" is misunderstood as some kind of exalted "perfection".................yet when asked to give a description of the miracles of the Buddhist faith the master said.........."When I'm happy I laugh, when I'm sad I cry....these are the miracles of my religion"

And a Zen Koan.........."A clearly enlightened person falls into a well.How is this so?"

There is a book you might like to read..........."The Spirituality of Imperfection" by Ernest Kurtz and Katherine Ketcham. It is sub-titled "Storytelling and the Journey to Wholeness". Full of wonderful Hasidic tales and other stories and wisdom from around the world......

One of the "Buddhist" stories..............

Master Shaku Soen liked to take an evening stroll through a nearby village. One day he heard loud lamentation from a house and , on entering quietly, realized that the householder had died and the family and neighbours were crying. He sat down and cried with them. An old man noticed him and remarked, rather shaken on seeing the famous master crying with them: "I would have thought that you at least were beyond such things." "But it is this which puts me beyond it," replied the Master between his tears.

Despite our religious differences, I do believe we agree. Thanks a lot. This has been a rather mild-mannered thread. Give yourselves a pat on the back for discussing, not arguing.

God Bless,
-Supermag

 

[HomeBound]

We will all die someday, and when we do, whether we are Christian, Budhist, Muslim etc... we will come to see Jesus (even mohomad claimed to have seen Jesus when he went to heaven)

He is there waiting. Our convictions when face to face with Jesus will be what determines whether we Get past him or not.

 

[Tariki]

We will all die someday, and when we do, whether we are Christian, Budhist, Muslim etc... we will come to see Jesus (even mohomad claimed to have seen Jesus when he went to heaven)

He is there waiting. Our convictions when face to face with Jesus will be what determines whether we Get past him or not.

From Karl Barth, the great exponent of the free Grace of God............"Thus the prospect of going before the judge can only be consoling for us if and when we hold fast to this one fact that Christ has accepted these very ones who have not deserved it of him............that he has loved us too as his enemies, and loves us and will love us still."

We are speaking of Grace.....................I think this is what you mean by "convictions"?

 

[HomeBound]

a persons convictions is not the same as when one is consoled.

So.........um.........no.

The consoling nature spoken of in that passage, is comfort at the thaught of seeing God.

The Convictions I'm talking about are when actually there, in front of Jesus.

 

[Tariki]

Homebound................"as swans that leave the lake, we leave home after home behind........"

My point was that perhaps our only "conviction" need be that we rely totally upon grace............and perhaps, in the end, even our "reliance" is an optional extra...........or at least, our reliance upon it!

Thanks

 

[supermagdalena]

My point was that perhaps our only "conviction" need be that we rely totally upon grace............and perhaps, in the end, even our "reliance" is an optional extra...........or at least, our reliance upon it!

Tariki, could you please clarify that a little? I'm not sure I'm clear what you mean.

Thanks.

God Bless,
-Supermag

 

[vajradhara]

Prolly to strongly worded. :o

I do not accept Buddha's findings as true or applicable to my life.

If you like I tone down my assertions and we can debate Buddhism. I think it teaches avoidance of inevitable conflicts of life. It teaches that life is a perception and the biggest problem is one self. (as shown partly in your post)

I think suffering is temporary and part of life. To end it one needs to end life. I prefer to struggle through, be greedy and be angered and alter injustice rather then stand by and accept it.

namaste hank,

thank you for the post.

i'm not sure why you think that this is a teaching of any of the buddhist sutras... as far as i know, this is nothing like the buddhist teachings.

actually, to get to the "nuts and bolts" so to speak, it teaches that life is characterized by suffering and longing. it then says that there is a way to stop that suffering and longing and then it provides the methodology to do so. there are some other things that are taught, but this is not the time to discuss those.

one need not end life to end suffering this is a false assertion. it is true that suffering, like all mental states, is impermenant and subject to change... and that's why we can end it.

 

[vajradhara]

We will all die someday, and when we do, whether we are Christian, Budhist, Muslim etc... we will come to see Jesus (even mohomad claimed to have seen Jesus when he went to heaven)

He is there waiting. Our convictions when face to face with Jesus will be what determines whether we Get past him or not.

Namaste homebound,

thank you for the post.

whilst this is, it would appear, your belief, it is not shared by many on this forum

in any event, the Buddhist tradition does not see the death and dying process in the same way that it is viewed in the Abrahamaic traditions.

 

[HomeBound]

In which way does the Buddhist tradition see the "death and dying process"?


Never smoked Nagarjuna before. Might be a bit much.

 

[vajradhara]

In which way does the Buddhist tradition see the "death and dying process"?


Never smoked Nagarjuna before. Might be a bit much.

Namaste homebound,

i'm afraid that i cannot expound that on this forum for a few reasons, perhaps the most important is that we are not permitted to promote alternate beliefs here. suffice it to say that, in my tradition, there is no mystery in the dying process.. we believe we have a very good understanding of what goes on and why.

if you are interested in this topic of discussion, we can continue it at www.comparative-religion.com if you'd like.

Nag-ar-june-ah was a person, not a plant... though should it be, i do believe that it may be a bit much..

 

[Tariki]

Tariki, could you please clarify that a little? I'm not sure I'm clear what you mean.

Thanks.

God Bless,
-Supermag

Dear Supermag........

Please do not embarrass me in this way...........asking me to explain myself!!! I find it very difficult to understand others, let alone myself...................

An attempt.....

For a number of years I followed the Theravada tradition of the Buddhist Faith...................basically, the Buddha as "teacher" not "saviour" or even a cosmic principle. Its famous "catch-phrase" is "Buddha's can only point the way, each has to walk the path themseves." It is a path of self-power (jariki), the way of the Sages. Over the past couple of years I have moved over to Shin Buddhism, the Buddhism of "Other-Power" (tariki)......even of "faith" and "grace"...............(I began using the word "grace" on Buddhist discussion forums, and was asked to explain myself!!!)

When you have relied upon your own efforts and "techniques" for many years, meditating and suchlike, practicing the precepts - or trying to, never was much cop at this! - and then to throw them aside..............well, the implications of "grace" become overwhelming within life as lived and experienced.

There is a passage in the New Testament that says that we were chosen before the foundation of the world.......I think in Ephesians. The implications of this are profound................Desmond Tutu said of these words............."Therefore, nothing we can do can make God love us more, nothing we can do can make God love us less." This corresponds with the Pure Land teaching that "we are already enlightened"...........at a certain level, a totally ridiculous statement!

The implications of grace do grow within us in Time, yet it is a necessary stage on the path where self-power is also appreciated, looking back, as the working of "other-power"........I have quoted this before, from the Christian poet John Donne............"Grace, if thou repent, thou cans't not lack, yet who shall give ye that grace to begin?"

(I know from my Christian fundamentalist days that there is a practice amongst some of writing dates in diaries when "the Lord was asked to come into my heart"...........to retain a sense of full assurance of salvation? To my mind, this is to a certain extent to trust in our own "invitation"...our own "conviction"...............our own memory of the minute and the hour.............)

Apparently we are not allowed to promote alternate beliefs on this forum, so I am not able to explain this in terms of Buddhist non-dualism.........

Perhaps I am allowed to quote from the journals of Saichi, one of the Myokonin, a Pure land devotee.............

"O Saichi, won't you tell us about Other-Power?
Yes, but there is neither Other-Power nor Self-Power,
What is, is the graceful acceptance only."

I would never wish to rely upon my own convictions. The graceful acceptance is Amida.

Sorry if I have still not explained myself.

Thanks