One Way

[HomeBound]

Vaj,

To be honest, I did come to think that my previous words about Buddhist teachings that "could" never be used to explain people with handicaps etc should have been modifed to "should" or "would"............as I said, in the Theravada tradition there are the four unthinkables, one of which is "karma-vipaka".....the consequences of karma.........over which, the Buddha said, it was senseless to brood or think upon, as not leading to the heartwood of the dharma.

I think I was more influenced by the opinions of Homebound in terms of classic "reincarnation" and wishing to disassociate the Buddhist teachings from them. In terms of "souls" returning again and again........the "same" person"...........this would seem to imply for me a sickening judgement of others that has no place in the development of wisdom and compassion ( I would just add that this is what it implies for me, I accuse Homebound of nothing...........I'll even give him/her the few blessings I have left!!)

(I would say that if you stir in a heady mixture of different "dharma gates" where, for instance, Bodhisattvas come to rebirth voluntarily,in various guises to bring all to awakening..................I think it becomes very problamatic to make any judgement about anyone concerning what they may or may not have "learnt" in a previous life and why they are as they are in this one!...........anyone may be an "angel" in disguise, calling us not to judgement of them, but to enter into the mutuality of compassion and understanding..........giving and receiving.....leaning upon each other and learning from each other........)

Thanks

P.S. I am off on holiday for a week.............perhaps unable to access a PC.

I guess it's up to me to clearify. Sorry I haven't been here for a while.

I do believe that people are given some type of choice, fitting to the self condemnation they may feel. Being placed back on earth not as a punishment, but as a developemental decision eagerly welcomed by the person (soul) knowing that what is needed to be learned would take reletively shorter time on earth than it would in any other method.

I believe the person is very willing to return, and become the best enlightened spirit they could possibly be. And may choose to come to earth as a cripple person to be enlightened that much quicker.

Understand that this is the very basics, and this activity may be much more advanced and involved than I make it appear.

 

[vajradhara]

I guess it's up to me to clearify. Sorry I haven't been here for a while.

I do believe that people are given some type of choice, fitting to the self condemnation they may feel. Being placed back on earth not as a punishment, but as a developemental decision eagerly welcomed by the person (soul) knowing that what is needed to be learned would take reletively shorter time on earth than it would in any other method.

I believe the person is very willing to return, and become the best enlightened spirit they could possibly be. And may choose to come to earth as a cripple person to be enlightened that much quicker.

Understand that this is the very basics, and this activity may be much more advanced and involved than I make it appear.

Namaste homebound,

nice to see you back

this sounds like the Atman Doctrine of Rebirth in the aspect of an enduring soul or spirit that transmigrates from birth to birth.

however, the choosing to come back to help others is one of the primary buddhist paths.. that of the Bodhisattva

in any event, the Buddha specifically refuted the Atman Doctrine (with what is known as the Anatman Doctrine), that of an enduring self or soul that continues to be reborn. according to the Buddhist teachings on rebirth, there is nothing that "transmigrates" from one existence to the next.

recall that in the Buddhist tradition we do not believe that there is a permenantly existing self which perhaps makes our view a bit more clear.

 

[HomeBound]

Namaste homebound,

nice to see you back

this sounds like the Atman Doctrine of Rebirth in the aspect of an enduring soul or spirit that transmigrates from birth to birth.

however, the choosing to come back to help others is one of the primary buddhist paths.. that of the Bodhisattva

in any event, the Buddha specifically refuted the Atman Doctrine (with what is known as the Anatman Doctrine), that of an enduring self or soul that continues to be reborn. according to the Buddhist teachings on rebirth, there is nothing that "transmigrates" from one existence to the next.

recall that in the Buddhist tradition we do not believe that there is a permenantly existing self which perhaps makes our view a bit more clear.

That is interesting indeed. A belief as peaceful as Buddha's can't be all wrong. And not to step on anyones toes, I strongly believe our spirits are eternal, and no offence, I believe this makes my view a heck of a lot clearer. It is the meaning of life. It is our purpose. Not to come back to help others (well in a sense I guess it is) but to grow ourselves through overcoming, and enduring all while increasing in our love for our fellow man. A man's true heart is clear in times of adversity.

Purpose in man (which is known deep within us all) is to make the outward as the good within.

There is good in all men, and we are here in earth (the fire) to be purged of the evil. Eventually all will come to realize there is no real benefit from our inner evil, thus it must be purged.

Jesus tried to explain this all, but peoples hearts were too hardened to understand. (no offense to my fellow Christians)

 

[vajradhara]

That is interesting indeed. A belief as peaceful as Buddha's can't be all wrong. And not to step on anyones toes, I strongly believe our spirits are eternal, and no offence, I believe this makes my view a heck of a lot clearer. It is the meaning of life. It is our purpose. Not to come back to help others (well in a sense I guess it is) but to grow ourselves through overcoming, and enduring all while increasing in our love for our fellow man. A man's true heart is clear in times of adversity.

Purpose in man (which is known deep within us all) is to make the outward as the good within.

There is good in all men, and we are here in earth (the fire) to be purged of the evil. Eventually all will come to realize there is no real benefit from our inner evil, thus it must be purged.

Jesus tried to explain this all, but peoples hearts were too hardened to understand. (no offense to my fellow Christians)

Namaste homebound,

i have no doubt that your view is more clear to you.. it's simply not one shared by Buddhists the thing is... you can't find an eternal spirit when you search for one... why presume such a thing is there? just musing.. no answer required

 

[HomeBound]

good point

I guess that's where my faith in the word comes in.

 

[Michali]

The same is true with God. He is spirit. We cannot search and find Him as we cannot search and find our own spirit. It is only by faith that we presume there is such an unseen substance.

 

[Tariki]

Just back from hols...........thanks Vaj, it was a good break........

Just reading thorugh the thread since I've been away, thanks for all the posts........unable to really answer any specific one.

As far as "souls" and "no-self/soul".........reincarnation or rebirth......essence or no essence..........for me this can come down to our own relationship with "knowledge".........of our need to know or grasp at Truth, the wish for certitude in a very uncertain world! For me, to define something precisely is sometimes to put a price on it.........In my understanding the Buddhist teachings of anatta is that we are unable to find any essence - within or without........no "substance".........this inability means that we "drop into a depth that continues infinitely into the heart of things, never halting at something but also never coming to a stop at nothing...(As Stephen Batchelor says) I love quotes and reflecting upon them...........another from Bronowski, speaking of knowledge........."there is no absolute knowledge....and those who claim it, whether they are scientists or dogmatists, open the door to tragedy.........all information is imperfect.........we have to treat it with humility.........this is the human condition..."

When we think we "Know" we can cease to truly trust, have faith, or rely upon Grace.............to quote St John of the Cross........."If we wish to be sure of the road we tread on, we must close our eyes and walk in the dark." Or as we Buddhists would say............"...we rest upon the firm ground of emptyness!"

Well, perhaps I have waffled enough................although someone mentioned miracles, which brought to mind another few words, from Albert Einstein.........."There are two ways to live, one is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as if everything is." Personally, I cannot relate to thinking of just some things as miracles and not others.........

Deeds or belief?............I see Christianity as practicing an "ethics of gratitude"...........Pure Land very much falls in line with this. Self consciously "doing good" can separate ourselves from others....in judgement and self-righteousness.........For me, human beings are joined by their imperfections, not separated by their deeds..........."mutual forgiveness of each vice opens the gates to paradise..." (Blake)

Anyway, here endeth today's sermon!

Thanks for the discussion

 

[HomeBound]

And thank you Tariki.

Did anyone here know that reincarnation was believed in by the early church, as well as gnostics?

Why would something that makes so much sense, and give the Bible so much more understanding, be removed from present Christian doctrines?

 

[supermagdalena]

Homebound, are you referring to the Gospel of Thomas?

There are many reasons it's not included in the canon, including sexism and mischaracterizing Jesus. Have you read these books? Because if you haven't you shouldn't say they shoudl be included. I read some of Thomas and was shocked. Not many nonChristians would support the theories in there either.

As for the reincarnation thing, the gnostics were not the same thing as early Christianity. It was a shoot-off and even a bit of a cult, combining "mystery religions" with some Christian elements. Reincarnation was not a part of the early Church's beliefs. Please back up your statement if you can, but if you can't, don't bother saying it

 

[HomeBound]

No, not the Gospel of Thomas.

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/reincar/re-imo.htm

And I said "as well as Gnostics" not that they were the sole group to believe in it.

 

[supermagdalena]

All the link basically does is give examples of Christians who have believed it and made Bible verses fit. 1) Small percentages of Christians belief many things. That proves nothing other than people can not accept a religion unless they alter it to fit their happiness and lifestyle. 2) the only Bible verses are twisted. Jesus in speaking of the blind man, for example, did not imply reincarnation but rather that his blindness worked into God's plan for him. "in order that the works of God may be made manifest in the blind man"...how do you get reincarnation out of that? It means that it was going to work to the glory of God. In theory, you can make any words mean anything you want.

After that point the essay is pointless, it's just giving examples of Christians who might've believed it. I believe the moon is made of cheese. Does this validate it, simply because I believe it? Most people disagree. Most early Christians did not have reincarnation as a doctrine.

Too many holes in the argument. Try working one out yourself rather than listening to a website.

 

[HomeBound]

Without any websites involved, I believe in reincarnation. Theres no real reason not to. I wasn't posting that site to prove reincarnation but to point out that some early Christians believed in it.

It makes a lot of sense. Most of the beliefs Christians hold to now are from what they've learned from their church. Very little is discerned from their own intellect.

Then someone comes along that has a belief that may not agree with theirs, and all of a sudden that person is heretic. It's insane.

 

[mo.mentum]

It makes a lot of sense. Most of the beliefs Christians hold to now are from what they've learned from their church. Very little is discerned from their own intellect.

Then someone comes along that has a belief that may not agree with theirs, and all of a sudden that person is heretic. It's insane.

You said it brother!!

God is known through reason and intellect! Gifts He bestowed on mankind and no other! We have the tools to decide. We only need Him. Why rely on what other people have reasoned if we have the same tools and may feel Him differently.

We must all connect to that inner Self and find God within and for a moment forget what we've been taught, and discover for ourselves.

Ameen.

 

[Tariki]

In theory, you can make any words mean anything you want.

In theory...............and in practice! The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The Catholic Church held the Bible together by its own interpretation - as guided by the Holy Spirit through time. Since the Reformation, when each believer was left to interpret for themselves, we have the multitude of Protestant churches, divisions.......perhaps it could be called a Tower of Babel?

Buddhism would hold that whatever beliefs we hold, they will merely be expressions of our own desires....the grasping of our minds........minds clothed in ignorance. And even if what we believe happens to be true? As the Chinese saying goes.........."When wrong person uses right means, right means works in wrong way". Words are fingers that point at the moon, not the moon itself........ How do we truly "see" the moon? One way.........or many?

I have a great respect for Thomas Merton, the Catholic monk...........in the introduction to his collection of letters..."The Hidden Ground of Love".......it is said......"It is at the level of doctrinal formulations that we recognise our differences; it is at the level of the religious experience that we come to realize our oneness."

Thomas Merton speaks of meeting the Zen Buddhist D. T. Suzuki..........

"I saw Dr Suzuki only in two brief visits and I did not feel I ought to waste time exploring abstract, doctrinal explanations of his tradition. But I did feel that I was speaking to someone who, in a tradition completely different from my own, had matured, had become complete and found his way. One cannot understand Buddhism until one meets it in this existential manner, in a person in whom it is alive. Then there is no longer a problem of understanding doctrines which cannot help being a bit exotic for a Westerner, but only a question of appreciating a value which is self-evident..........."

Appreciating a value that is self-evident.........

P.S. There is a book by Osho, called "The Mustard Seed", that is a series of essays/discourses on various sayings from the Gospel of Thomas. Osho is not a favorite of mine, but his book is worth a look for anyone interested.(Personally I find many of the sayings found in this Gospel beyond my experience and understanding)

Thanks

 

[vajradhara]

And thank you Tariki.

Did anyone here know that reincarnation was believed in by the early church, as well as gnostics?

Why would something that makes so much sense, and give the Bible so much more understanding, be removed from present Christian doctrines?

Namaste Homebound,

indeed! not only am i aware of it, i've even posted a thread on this very subject! there were some replies.. but not many... and most just attacked me or the conclusions that were drawn

it was removed from the Bible because it directly conflicts with a bodily ressurrection...

i've also posted in a related thread the Jewish understanding of reincarnation.. though no one has chosen to repond one way or the other to that information...

here are the two relevant links, should you want to review them:
http://www.christianforums.com/t48353

http://www.christianforums.com/t48356

 

[HomeBound]

Great! thanks vajradhara, you're very kind.

Maybe we can discuss reincarnation some day.

 

[vajradhara]

Great! thanks vajradhara, you're very kind.

Maybe we can discuss reincarnation some day.

Namaste homebound,

my pleasure

as always.. when i post information, it's to sustain my own understanding.. i would encourage anyone interested to investigate for themselves and draw their own conclusions...

i'd be happy to discuss reincarnation or rebirth with you

 

[supermagdalena]

Homebound, I was expressing my opinion, not calling you a heretic. I simply expressed that I would rather hear your own opinions. Since you want to hear my opinions not my church's, that's what I'd like from you. By the way, I feel free to disagree with my church and have as a result switched churches independently. My family followed. Just because I don't buy it doesn't mean I don't think independently. I haven't seen any proof, and "there's no reason not to" is not proof.

I am, however, curious as to what proof can be found and will look at those links, vajradhara. I do want to know more of what can be found.

Homebound, I meant no offense and was not calling you a heretic, though I do disagree with you. I was really addressing the website you sent me. Sorry if I'm not allowed to reply to that. Put a note if you don't want opinions other than your own expressed.

 

[HomeBound]

Homebound, I was expressing my opinion, not calling you a heretic. I simply expressed that I would rather hear your own opinions. Since you want to hear my opinions not my church's, that's what I'd like from you. By the way, I feel free to disagree with my church and have as a result switched churches independently. My family followed. Just because I don't buy it doesn't mean I don't think independently. I haven't seen any proof, and "there's no reason not to" is not proof.

I am, however, curious as to what proof can be found and will look at those links, vajradhara. I do want to know more of what can be found.

Homebound, I meant no offense and was not calling you a heretic, though I do disagree with you. I was really addressing the website you sent me. Sorry if I'm not allowed to reply to that. Put a note if you don't want opinions other than your own expressed.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't talking about you. It wasn't you who offended me. I was being general about what early thinkers had to go through, such as Justin Martyr (AD 100-l65), St. Clement of Alexandria ( AD 150-220), and Origen ( AD 185-254) who believed in pre-existence of souls.

Of course there's no way for me to prove reincarnation. I go by what I read in the Bible and what I feel in my spirit.

The only thing that comes near proof is in NDE's (of course using discernment as to which accounts may be fraudulant)

 

[HomeBound]

Namaste Homebound,

here are the two relevant links, should you want to review them:
http://www.christianforums.com/t48353

http://www.christianforums.com/t48356

Very good, I wasn't aware of any threads like these. Good stuff.