One thing I don't understand about the creationist position

[BobRyan]

Again, could God have not manipulated time in some fashion (eg 2 Peter 3:8)?

What fashion do you propose given that in legal code it is the same as the 24 hour day of Ex 20

Ex 20 "six days you shall labor...for in SIX DAYS the LORD MADE" --

God is the one that set the time limit
And the scope of the project "from dust to fully functioning adult human"

Evolution stories offered so far do not play at all withing such limits.

 

[Speedwell]

until you read it.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is irrefutable

Instead of saying "nothing appears to be made any more than 2+2 appears to be supernaturally design to be 4" -- it says that Creation is seen to "be made" it says that not only is it "seen" to be made - but the characteristics of the maker - the designer -- the creator - are clearly seen by looking at "what He has made".

That is ID "and then some".

No, that's what theistic evolutionists believe. Nothing there about design, irreducible complexity, specified information or anything else about ID.

 

[BobRyan]

How does this rule out evolution as a process by which God created species?

That was a response to ID being in Romans 1 -- your topic is in Genesis 1-2 and Ex 20:8-11.

I was merely supporting your argument made about Theistic Evolutionism

which was this --

Oh I know. I don't just consider theistic evolutionists to be "creationists" as per the common usage in these forums.

I think there is someone in the process of making that Romans 1 case for me "yet again" even as I speak -- and it goes to your point as well.

 

[BobRyan]

There is nothing in Romans 1 about ID.

until you read it.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is irrefutable

Instead of saying "nothing appears to be made any more than 2+2 appears to be supernaturally design to be 4" -- it says that Creation is seen to "be made" it says that not only is it "seen" to be made - but the characteristics of the maker - the designer -- the creator - are clearly seen by looking at "what He has made".

That is ID "and then some".

No, that's what theistic evolutionists believe. Nothing there about design, irreducible complexity, specified information or anything else about ID.

Until you notice the details. The details go far beyond "the maker/designer is obviously not stupid".

ID "Intelligent Design" is the most minimal statement - it falls far short of Romans 1. A person who claims to fail to accept ID "Seen in the things that have been MADE" - is claiming to fall far short of the much more complex and advanced concept that Paul claims the pagans can clearly see in Romans 1.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

If that is the argument then it is too late --- "we noticed".

=================

An ID denying argument would rewrite Romans 1 something like this

1. First of all I don't see anything that appears to have been made
2. Secondly if it was made - it does not indicate that the person who made it had much of any intelligence at all.

So then they reduce Paul's argument to

"ok well then that person whom you find to be revealed has having no IQ at all - is clearly by that observation - all knowing and all powerful and rightfully judges your moral failures and then dooms you to fiery hell --- and all of this is clearly supported by what you admit you clearly see as you observe that the maker has no IQ".

In other words denying ID is clearly NOT what the pagans are doomed to conclude according to Paul in Romans 1. Rather his argument goes way to the other end of that scale.

 

[pitabread]

What fashion do you propose given that in legal code it is the same as the 24 hour day of Ex 20

2 Peter 3:8

be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day
​

God is the one that set the time limit
And the scope of the project "from dust to fully functioning adult human"

Evolution stories offered so far do not play at all withing such limits.

This still doesn't rule out an accelerated process. Again, you appear to be constraining God is a way that doesn't make sense given your claim of them being "all powerful".

​

 

[pitabread]

Let's try the thought experiment.

God holds out his hand over some dust - and underneath his hand the dust rises up self-organizes into the shape of an adult human... God breathes on it 'the breath of life" and all the clay/dust "turns into" living human tissue functioning organs and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.

So using the computer model you could say the brain was downloaded with the patterns facts memories to function as an adult - but it does not show any path for how evolution simply does that to a pile of clay in 24 hours.

Where in the Bible does it say that this process was instantaneous? Where does it say that God put their hand over some dust?

I mean, I've read Genesis 2 so I'm familiar with the story. But it seems you're adding a bunch of details not found in the originating text.

 

[prodromos]

That's not the point. The point is that if we don't actually know how* God created species, why assume God didn't use evolution?

Because evolution presupposes death, and lots of it, yet the Scriptures tell us that death did not enter into the equation until the fall, when all the different kinds of animals already existed.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Peter 3:8

be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day​

The text above cuts both ways "a thousand years is as a day" - AND - "a day is as a 1000 years" - it does not allow for "six days you shall labor... for in six days the Lord made". because it would mean that Israel at Sinai "would still be working off their first 6000 years" before getting a day of rest.

Neither Moses no the those at Sinai were using "day" that way.

And even if that eisegetical "insert" could be crammed into the text it would not satisfy evolution - but there is no science of evolution known to mankind today that starts with dust - and ends up with a fully functioning adult human in 1000 years.

Your "solution" is to rewrite both the bible and all of evolution

 

[pitabread]

Because evolution presupposes death, and lots of it, yet the Scriptures tell us that death did not enter into the equation until the fall, when all the different kinds of animals already existed.

Literal death or spiritual death? Because if you're assuming literal death, there are a whole host of other issues that raises.

 

[pitabread]

And even if that eisegetical "insert" could be crammed into the text it would not satisfy evolution - but there is no science of evolution known to mankind today that starts with dust - and ends up with a fully functioning adult human in 1000 years.

Okay, let's assume it was a literal 24 hour day for argument's sake. Why couldn't God have simply used an accelerated evolutionary process within that time frame?

 

[BobRyan]

Where in the Bible does it say that this process was instantaneous?

I did not use the term "instantaneous" - I said 24 hours. One evening and one morning

Do you have such a process in any evolution text book for going from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours.

============================

BobRyan said: ↑
Let's try the thought experiment.

God holds out his hand over some dust - and underneath his hand the dust rises up self-organizes into the shape of an adult human... God breathes on it 'the breath of life" and all the clay/dust "turns into" living human tissue functioning organs and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.

So using the computer model you could say the brain was downloaded with the patterns facts memories to function as an adult - but it does not show any path for how evolution simply does that to a pile of clay in 24 hours.

Where does it say that God put their hand over some dust?

1. It says He made man of the dust of the ground.
2. That was me indulging your fiction for a moment in that gratis "thought experiment"

 

[BobRyan]

Okay, let's assume it was a literal 24 hour day for argument's sake. Why couldn't God have simply used an accelerated evolutionary process within that time frame?

what would be the point? What problem would that solve?

Is your claim that all the evolution text books are claiming "evolution" stories for going from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours??

Since there is no such thing as that - Why not direct-manufacture??

Since now you would have to make everything up from scratch then why not just claim "well yes direct-manufacture but I want to use the term evolution for it"?

Since nothing you are proposing is actually evolution in any text book known to mankind at this point.

 

[Speedwell]

I did not use the term "instantaneous" - I said 24 hours. One evening and one morning

Do you have such a process in any evolution text book for going from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours.

============================

BobRyan said: ↑
Let's try the thought experiment.

God holds out his hand over some dust - and underneath his hand the dust rises up self-organizes into the shape of an adult human... God breathes on it 'the breath of life" and all the clay/dust "turns into" living human tissue functioning organs and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.

So using the computer model you could say the brain was downloaded with the patterns facts memories to function as an adult - but it does not show any path for how evolution simply does that to a pile of clay in 24 hours.



1. It says He made man of the dust of the ground.
2. That was me indulging your fiction for a moment in that gratis "thought experiment"

A pun.

 

[pitabread]

I did not use the term "instantaneous" - I said 24 hours. One evening and one morning

You used the term "instantly":

God holds out his hand over some dust - and underneath his hand the dust rises up self-organizes into the shape of an adult human... God breathes on it 'the breath of life" and all the clay/dust "turns into" living human tissue functioning organs and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.

Do you have such a process in any evolution text book for going from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours.

Again, could God have accelerated the evolutionary process?

 

[pitabread]

what would be the point? What problem would that solve?

Why not direct-manufacture??

That's what I'm asking you. Why couldn't God have used an evolutionary process? Even for arguments sake a hyper-evolutionary process that fit in a 24-ish time frame?

When an answer to question is another question, it's not an answer.

 

[Speedwell]

What nonsense. Genesis says nothing about a "hand." It just says God formed man.

 

[BobRyan]

Okay, let's assume it was a literal 24 hour day for argument's sake. Why couldn't God have simply used an accelerated evolutionary process within that time frame?

what would be the point? What problem would that solve?

Is your claim that all the evolution text books are claiming "evolution" stories for going from dust to fully functioning adult human in 24 hours??

Since there is no such thing as that - Why not direct-manufacture??

Since now you would have to make everything up from scratch then why not just claim "well yes direct-manufacture but I want to use the term evolution for it"?

Since nothing you are proposing is actually evolution in any text book known to mankind at this point.

That's what I'm asking you. Why couldn't God have used an evolutionary process? Even for arguments sake a hyper-evolutionary process that fit in a 24-ish time frame?

When an answer to question is another question, it's not an answer.

What much-imagined hyper-evolutionary process would fit in a 24 hour window for going from dust-to-adult human?

And in what ways would it differ from direct manufacture since you can't have anything other than super intelligent design salutations . All of manufacturing today is "super abrupt hyper saltation" by that standard.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because evolution presupposes death, and lots of it, yet the Scriptures tell us that death did not enter into the equation until the fall, when all the different kinds of animals already existed.

And all of the evidence tells us there was death on the Earth for billions of years before humans even showed up.

 

[BobRyan]

In this example I induldge the proposed evolution "story" trying to swap out God's work in 24 hourse with the only-imagined-sort-of-evolution in a gratis "thought experiment"

BobRyan said: ↑
Let's try the thought experiment.

God holds out his hand over some dust - and underneath his hand the dust rises up self-organizes into the shape of an adult human... God breathes on it 'the breath of life" and all the clay/dust "turns into" living human tissue functioning organs and the human instantly has speech, the ability to walk, and is capable of abstract thought concepts.

So using the computer model you could say the brain was downloaded with the patterns facts memories to function as an adult - but it does not show any path for how evolution simply does that to a pile of clay in 24 hours.

1. It says He made man of the dust of the ground.
2. That was me indulging your fiction for a moment in that gratis "thought experiment"

What nonsense. Genesis says nothing about a "hand." It just says God formed man.

Indeed He formed man of the dust - He spoke and it was - that's because I don't think speaking or holding out a hand interferes with evolutionism.

 

[Speedwell]

And all of the evidence tells us there was death on the Earth for billions of years before humans even showed up.

Not really. There was cessation of life for individual forms, but there was no 'death' before there was a creature which could contemplate its own mortality.