One thing I don't understand about the creationist position

[pitabread]

never heard of it.

Sounds like you are slapping the label "evolution" on direct-manufacture of a fully functioning adult human in less then one evening-and-morning 24 period

So? Is your God only capable of doing things you have personally heard of? Is your God so limited?

It is how evolutionist tell themselves that the evolution-story broke and is little more than direct-manufacture.

Try Googling that term. You won't find anything.

 

[Speedwell]

BobRyan said: ↑
what Bible detail did I add?? And how did it impact your hyper saltation suggestion?



1. The term I used "thought experiment" is not a euphemism for "Bible detail" or "Bible text"
2. you didn't answer the question -- what impact does "speak" vs "hand held out" have on your hyper-saltation evolution solution?

There is nothing recorded about God having spoken at that time. The only verb used was "formed." The only possible correct answer is, "We don't know how God formed man and have no basis for speculating about it."

 

[pitabread]

Indeed - "thought experiment" is not the same as "here is the Bible text"

Sure.

But as a similar thought experiment, why couldn't God have done the same using an accelerated evolutionary process? (E.g. the premise of the thread.)

 

[prodromos]

That cuts both ways doesn't it?

Where did I claim to know with certainty anything prior to the fall except the absence of death (which is revealed to us in the Scriptures). I simply made a suggestion why there would not be an overpopulation issue.

 

[BobRyan]

Nothing in there about God holding their hand over anything. Nothing about dust rising up and self-organizing. Nothing there about the clay/dust turning into living human tissue. Nothing about the human instantly having speech, etc. .

God speaks the humans in both Gen 1 and 2 and the humans do things and say things .. they "instantly have speech" the moment they come to life they can walk, speak, hold conversation, name animals etc.

Is this hampering your hyper-saltation-evolution proposal?

 

[pitabread]

Where did I claim to know with certainty anything prior to the fall except the absence of death (which is revealed to us in the Scriptures). I simply made a suggestion why there would not be an overpopulation issue.

Which you're basing on post-Fall observations. But if we can't use post-Fall observations to describe a pre-Fall world, then such suggestions are moot.

 

[BobRyan]

Sure.

But as a similar thought experiment, why couldn't God have done the same using an accelerated evolutionary process? (E.g. the premise of the thread.)

Because you have not defined what that would be and because all you have done so far is take direct-manufacture in a hyper-saltation fashion and slam the label "evolution" on it for which there is no evolution text known to mankind that has such an "evolution" theory/story/idea

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Like I said, that causes a whole host of other other problems. For example, God commanded living things to be fruitful and multiply. Without death, you'd rapidly run into some population issues.

God created some things to be eaten by other things, thus the balance of nature. He also created other population controls as well.

Perhaps the biggest strike against evolution is the organization of interdependent life on a global scale (across time, distance, seasons, even the influence of the heavenly bodies).

 

[BobRyan]

prodromos said: ↑
Where did I claim to know with certainty anything prior to the fall except the absence of death (which is revealed to us in the Scriptures). I simply made a suggestion why there would not be an overpopulation issue.

Which you're basing on post-Fall observations. But if we can't use post-Fall observations to describe a pre-Fall world, then such suggestions are moot.

false -- obviously

Adam and Eve were warned about the tree of knowledge of evil and yet had not yet committed evil.

We on the other hand are very familiar with death so knowing that there is no death before the fall -- is absolutely knowable once God says it.

 

[pitabread]

God speaks the humans in both Gen 1 and 2 and the humans do things and say things .. they "instantly have speech" the moment they come to life they can walk, speak, hold conversation, name animals etc.

Is this hampering your hyper-saltation-evolution proposal?

No since again, it doesn't say anything about God doing things in an accelerated fashion.

 

[pitabread]

false

That post wasn't directed to you. Go back through the thread for the context.

 

[pitabread]

God created some things to be eaten by other things, thus the balance of nature. He also created other population controls as well.

Of course. Which contradicts the whole "no death before the fall" bit if one assumes that applies literally to living things.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not really. There was cessation of life for individual forms, but there was no 'death' before there was a creature which could contemplate its own mortality.

That is a rather odd definition of "death". Why is there a need for a creature to contemplate its own mortality?

 

[BobRyan]

That post wasn't directed to you. Go back through the thread for the context.

Thanks... looks like this to me --

==================================================

prodromos said: ↑
Where did I claim to know with certainty anything prior to the fall except the absence of death (which is revealed to us in the Scriptures). I simply made a suggestion why there would not be an overpopulation issue.

Which you're basing on post-Fall observations. But if we can't use post-Fall observations to describe a pre-Fall world, then such suggestions are moot.

false -- obviously

Adam and Eve were warned about the tree of knowledge of evil and yet had not yet committed evil.

We on the other hand are very familiar with death so knowing that there is no death before the fall -- is absolutely knowable once God says it.

 

[pitabread]

false -- obviously

Adam and Eve were warned about the tree of knowledge of evil and yet had not yet committed evil.

We on the other hand are very familiar with death so knowing that there is no death before the fall -- is absolutely knowable once God says it.

Again, you're jumping into the middle of a conversation. Go back and read the original context for that particular discussion (e.g. post #46). You're just responding to things out of context.

 

[prodromos]

Which you're basing on post-Fall observations. But if we can't use post-Fall observations to describe a pre-Fall world, then such suggestions are moot.

So you have answered your own question. This thread is done. All your suggestions about how God may have done things is entirely moot.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
God speaks the humans in both Gen 1 and 2 and the humans do things and say things .. they "instantly have speech" the moment they come to life they can walk, speak, hold conversation, name animals etc.

Is this hampering your hyper-saltation-evolution proposal?

No since again, it doesn't say anything about God doing things in an accelerated fashion.

Fine then we are both happy with it and you have yet to explain an evolutionary solution that can take dust and turn it into a fully functioning adult human in one evening-morning 24 hour day.

Your stuck slapping the "evolution" label on God's direct manufacture of a human in one evening-morning 24 hour period. - your hyper-saltation as evolution suggestion is not viable given that no evolution text book knows about it or even has a model for it.

so then what problem are you solving by slapping the term "evolution" on what God does in a single evening-morning day that is the same as the 24 hour day at Sinai?

 

[pitabread]

So you have answered your own question. This thread is done. All your suggestions about how God may have done things is entirely moot.

I'm simply asking why God couldn't have used an evolutionary process to produce living species.

If the answer is "we can't know", then that's not overly helpful but it also clearly doesn't rule it out. Despite the fact that some creationists here seem really set on limiting what God can or can't do.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Of course. Which contradicts the whole "no death before the fall" bit if one assumes that applies literally to living things.

There was no eternal death before the fall, but there was preordained morality from creation. "It is given for all men (including Adam) once to die, after that the judgment"; eternal life or eternal death.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm simply asking why God couldn't have used an evolutionary process to produce living species.

If the answer is "we can't know", then that's not overly helpful but it also clearly doesn't rule it out. Despite the fact that some creationists here seem really set on limiting what God can or can't do.

24 hour days rule it out..

No evolution suggestion for that short of hyper-saltation suggestions (ie miracle) condemned in almost all evolutionary texts