One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[mark kennedy]

After going through every passage posted by the lose your salvation or give up your salvation belief group, from what I see they are starting out without a proper understanding of a few major items in scripture. Some of these include:

1.) That a belief that you are a Christian, and even believing Jesus is your Lord and that you are doing as He would desire, even doing signs and wonders, miracles … in His name is no proof that you were ever a Christian.

a. Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

i. Notice that it is not a matter of them “being Christian” and then giving up or losing their Christianity, but rather that in spite of all they did and all they believed, “In Jesus name”, they NEVER WERE Christians.

ii. This covers a lot of people believing they are Christians but not really being Christians.

2.) There are a number of people who seemingly leave the faith that never see any consequences at all.

The key here is 'I never knew you', there was no personal relationship. Not I knew you once but you left. The message of the gospel is to whosoever will but many are called and few are chosen. The path to eternal life is narrow and few there be that enter to gate, the path that leads to destruction is broad and many who go that way. Israel goes out of Egypt and enter into the only legitimate theocracy that ever existed on earth, when it came time to enter the promised land only a handful of believers from the Exodus entered the promised land, the issue being faith:

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:8)​

Faith is too much to ask of most people, it's not mere persuasion, it's believing the one who makes the promise is faithful. When Jesus feed the 5,000 they wanted to make him king, since Saul that had always on insisted on having a king like everyone else.

And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. (1 Sam. 8:7)
​

When Jesus explains this to them that they must believe in him, most of them left.

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:28,29)​

Same situation with Jesus but just as the believer, a child of perdition is born of his father the devil (John 8:44). Then speaking of Judas he says:

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. (John 6:70,71)
​

If Judas was saved and then lost, how is it that he is already a child of perdition?

a. 1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

b.The point being, all of the passages that pertain to people seemingly hearing the word, seemingly believing, seemingly doing all the things that Christians do … and then leaving with no consequences at all, never were really Christians at all.

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)
​

It's at the top of the ten commandments and it's the bottom line wherever the gospel is preached. Isn't it interesting that John goes to great lengths to emphasize that if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us and then tells us unless we practice righteousness we practice lawlessness?

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)​

To be born again is to be born of the Spirit, you will bear fruit. If we do not have love one for another we are none of his. The new nature is sinless, it's the righteousness of God in Christ but we still have to deal with our earthly nature.

3.) This brings up an issue that many Christians do not understand. The issue of how God treats His kids/Christians, when they sin. This is dealt with in 1Co. 11:28-32

a.1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

i. In this passage we have how God judges His kids. Revoking their sonship or them being able to say, “I quit, I am no longer your child.” Is not a part of the options here.

ii. Understand that the reason we Christians, REAL Christians, are judged NOW, on this earth, and receive consequences NOW, while we are on this earth, is so that we don’t have to be judged with everyone else. (Not real Christians)

iii. That said, when God judges His REAL kids, the judgment takes the form of weakness, sickness and physical death … notice the word sleep. We aren’t referring to an extra nap. We are talking physical death even though you are still saved. Don’t trust me. Do a word study on the Greek root words.

They were denying the poor in the love feasts, the passage in James 2 is dealing with the same problem. Most people in the Greco-Roman world were slaves, treating them like second class citizens in the New Testament church wasn't an option. James calls it the royal law (James 2:8), Paul calls it the perfect thing (1 Cor. 13:10), Jesus calls it the mark of a disciple (John 13:35) and Paul calls it the bond of perfection (Col. 3:12-14).

1. If you want an example of this, read 1Co 5:1-5. In this segment we have a non-repentant Christian in the church, practicing sins even the Gentiles find abhorrent, sleeping with your father’s wife. No repentance, no sorrow, living in sin in the church. Obviously headed for hell, right? Nope. Falls in the “many sleep” category from 1Co 11. 1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2. Question: If you can practice sins that EVERYONE, even the Gentiles find repugnant, with everyone in the church knowing, and not repent, and still not lose your Christianity, what does one have to do to lose or give up your salvation?

b. Heb 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

i. Understand that a failure to see this is not proof that you “gave up your sonship” or Christianity, but rather that you never were a legitimate child of God in the first place.

ii. According to the passage, does renouncing your Christianity keep you from seeing the reproof of God? If you do not see the reproof of God, what does it prove? It proves you NEVER WERE a child of God, just like the end of Mat. 7, right … “I NEVER knew you.”

Another good example and of course the bottom line, I never knew you, not I knew you and you fell away.

4.) This brings us to some more involved passages that are also answered by the passages we just covered.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

i. This isn’t really a problem. I agree wholeheartedly with this EXACTLY as it is written. If you are a real Christian and you knew all this and you have the Holy Spirit AND YOU DO THIS … you are done. You can’t get back. Since you are a real child of God, and God reproves every child, and the reproof of God takes the form of weakness, sickness and … nap time … forever, what will you see? Can’t repent … nap time boys.

ii. One more thing. Notice the word “close” … yes, I know, if you want to believe people lose their salvation and go to hell, you really do NOT want to see that word n verse 8, but it’s there. Now if I was close to getting in a car accident, did I get in the accident? No, right. If I put a little dent in the fender, was I “close” to having an accident? Nope. Had one, but it was minor. The old saying about being a little bit pregnant applies. No such thing. Cursed or not boys, what does it say, what does it mean? How “Close” to being cursed can you be … without being cursed? Saved by the skin of your chinny chin, chin. Squeaking in with no rewards at all. By the way, Paul uses this illustration in 1Co 3:10-15. Notice verse 15 … still saved. Plus it is the stuff “On” the field that is burned up in the Hebrews passage. The field itself is not destroyed.

b. Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

i. If you sin and do not judge yourself, and you make God judge you, what should you expect based on Heb. 12 and 1Co 11? Come on, you’ve got this. The judgement of God, right, sickness, weakness, physical death. What do you think you should expect if you are a real child and you trample under foot the blood of Christ? Sorry … you are on your own …. I don’t want the blood spatter on my clothes … good luck with that …

c. 2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." This one is a lot like this passage:

d. Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

e. Tie both of those in with this one:

f. Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

i. So, what’s the key here? Only one group is really saved. Those that figured out the will of God/Christ and followed it as a habit and way of life. Knowing the will of God, and then not doing it, only guarantees you a greater condemnation. Knowledge doesn’t help the lost. It results in greater eternal consequences.

I don’t believe there are any passages that do not, in some way, relate to what is covered here. That said, if ANYONE has any verse that isn’t covered by the information here, or isn’t a simple matter of looking at the context and seeing that these people were never Christians in the first place, regardless of their beliefs or profession, or simply looking at the context of the passage, let me know.

Not too bad at all, just one thing though. The passage in Romans 2 is actually speaking to very pious Jews who made the annual pilgrimage to Israel for the fall feasts. They were ceremonially clean and observed the minutia of the Law. These are probably the people or part of their congregation of the Jews who repented at the preaching of Paul at Pentecost. Paul levels them with a scathing indictment that goes on for two almost three chapters. Right up until he makes this statement:

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:21-23)
​

That expression, 'but now', is the most important transition of the book. From there he will go onto ask the question, 'What shall we say then', which is a way of saying what do we teach. Romans 6, 7 and 8 are an answer to that question. Paul may seem like he is being a bit harsh here but Priscilla and Aquila were in Rome when the Jews were expelled, they ended up in Ephesus. They and Apollo founded the most missionary minded churches in the first century. Paul would return to find a thriving missionary effort that he naturally spent three and a half years nurturing. John would Pastor that church in Ephesus to a ripe old age and later in life, when he was very old, he was known as John the Elder. Jesus would send a scroll to this body of believers that he both praised and criticized, making the most sweeping prophetic predictions of the New Testament regarding the end of the age.

In addition to the literary context there is an historical context. We should take note and take heed.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[NeedyFollower]

Scripture also warns against apostasy, turning away from Christ, and not shipwrecking our faith.

The question shouldn't then be which set of Scriptures is true, but rather how do we confess all of Scripture?

As a Lutheran I believe that we have complete confidence and assurance in Christ, through faith, on account of the indelible and irrevocable promises of God. I can therefore, because of the Gospel, have every confidence that I am saved, I belong to Christ, and if I am Christ's then I belong to God. And there is nothing which can pluck me from His hand, neither is there any power which can separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. But that does not mean it is impossible for me to fall away, if I deny my baptism, turn away from Christ, throw away my faith, then I throw away my salvation and become apostate.

If one says, "Well, then you never believed in the first place." Then we deny the confidence and assurance of the Gospel, no longer depending on God's grace and word to hold us and keep us, but rather holding to our own ability.

The problem with Eternal Security, as popularly taught, is that it denies the severe warning in Scripture about falling away and when confronted with the fact of real world apostasy it must attempt to rationalize it away which actually thwarts the assurance and hope of the Gospel. If two people are baptized and have faith in the same Christ, hoping in the same Gospel, and one of them jumps ship and abandons their faith and the other says, "Well they had no faith in the first place, and their baptism was ineffective, and the Gospel did nothing at all" then it denies all confidence in the Gospel and abandons all assurance found in Christ and His Word.

It is only in Christ and His Word that we have this hope, this confidence, this assurance--and we can indeed be confidence and have assurance in Him. That it is, in fact true, that none can pluck us from His hand--because His Word is true and certain and sure. And it is true, certain, and sure even of those who, at some point in their lives, throw it all away to shipwreck their faith--the Word of God is not made null because of the faithlessness of sinful man. The same Gospel falls upon the same soil, that in some cases weeds and thistles grow and choke it out, or birds come and eat the seed, does not make the seed worthless, or the Farmer who sowed that seed ineffective or false.

The apostate has not received a defective Gospel. And it is this same Gospel that we hope and pray will return him back--for we have One who will run to greet the long-lost prodigal. We have a Shepherd who will travel mile over mile over mile to find one lost little lamb.


-CryptoLutheran

I hope not to contribute to any form of false doctrine or by my testimony give another member of the body a less careful observation and following of the narrow way that leads to life . With that said , I am a sheep which got lost in the world for over 20 years and yet He came and found me . Not because of who I am but because of who HE is . I was not really even looking as I was quite happy ( as the world counts happiness )living a very successful and sinful life ..the American dream . When He awoke me to the fact that I was lost ( along with my whole family ) , I returned (albeit without my wife and children ) . I did not count the cost and was not quite prepared for the reaction of those I formerly cherished . They have continued down the path of the riches of this world and it is very grievous ( as they also practice religion and have confidence in outward practices while still following the world . ) How deceitful false religion can be . Atheism is no threat to belief ...false belief is far more dangerous. How this speaks to OSAS I am not sure but I do believe God's Word and understand it/He does not change. Nor has the new covenant changed God's nature nor has it made Him a respecter of people . All the things which happened to the children of Israel , happened for OUR sakes ..so that we may believe Him and cling to Him . ( The devils believe He exist but do not believe His Word . )

 

[SBC]

One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

"Once" the Lord's Saving, has been accomplished, YES, it is forever.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Danthemailman]

One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

"Once" the Lord's Saving, has been accomplished, YES, it is forever.

God Bless,
SBC

Amen! Believers are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).

 

[jerry kelso]

One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

"Once" the Lord's Saving, has been accomplished, YES, it is forever.

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

Eternal life is an eternal substance
but the possession of it depends upon the individual's choice for whoever one yields themselves to is their master Romans 6.
The parable of the woman who lost her coin and found it shows salvation can be lost and found again and repeat again.
Can not one get lost in the woods and be found and if so then it can happen many times?

2. Christ will keep us saved if we cooperate with him 1 John 2:23-24. Jerry kelso

 

[SBC]

sbc,

Eternal life is an eternal substance
but the possession of it depends upon the individual's choice for whoever one yields themselves to is their master Romans 6.

"ONCE" Saved, IS, a result of an individual's choice of their master.

The parable of the woman who lost her coin and found it shows salvation can be lost and found again and repeat again.

First you would have to know what Salvation IS and provided BY whom and HOW one receives IT.

Salvation is provided for the life of ALL sinful flesh body's.
Salvation is provided BY Jesus offering His pure body, for mankind's sinful flesh body's.
There! That is what is provided. Period.

Oh, ya, wait a minute. There is that little caveat.
You know, of one repenting, because one BELIEVES, one submitting, because one BELIEVES, and one receiving Gods Salvation, because one BELIEVES.
And the accounting, of their name remaining in Gods Book of Life.

Believe, don't believe, believe, doubt, believe, stop believing, believe, walk away, believe, deny..... Yes, that is a series of what MANY people do.

Do you see the missing caveat? It is the people, unsure, believing, then doubting, denying, stopping, walking away, and popping in at their pleasure.

Do you see the missing caveat for them to RECEIVE the Salvation God provides?

Where did the "woman" submit and receive?

The point is;
Salvation is provided for all, but ONLY those who submit and receive it, HAVE IT.
Those WHO DO NOT give their own word to receive IT ~ LOSE IT.

God provides Salvation, but He does not FORCE anyone to accept it.
If one does accept it, "they give" their "own word" TO God to accept it.
God does not accept "your provided Salvation" for you. You do, or you do not. Period.

Jas 5
[12] let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay;

The giving is ONCE, the receiving is ONCE. And ONCE a person accepts their Salvation, it is permanent.

Christ will keep us saved if we cooperate with him 1 John 2:23-24.

No. Christ KEEPS YOU, because you "cooperated", ie BELIEVED.
No. Your power (of cooperation) does not KEEP you.
Christ's Power KEEPS you.

1 John 2 [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

"ONCE" Saved, IS, a result of an individual's choice of their master.



First you would have to know what Salvation IS and provided BY whom and HOW one receives IT.

Salvation is provided for the life of ALL sinful flesh body's.
Salvation is provided BY Jesus offering His pure body, for mankind's sinful flesh body's.
There! That is what is provided. Period.

Oh, ya, wait a minute. There is that little caveat.
You know, of one repenting, because one BELIEVES, one submitting, because one BELIEVES, and one receiving Gods Salvation, because one BELIEVES.
And the accounting, of their name remaining in Gods Book of Life.

Believe, don't believe, believe, doubt, believe, stop believing, believe, walk away, believe, deny..... Yes, that is a serious of what MANY people do.

Do you see the missing caveat? It is the people, unsure, believing, then doubting, denying, stopping, walking away, and popping in at their pleasure.

Do you see the missing caveat for them to RECEIVE the Salvation God provides?

Where did the "woman" submit and receive?

The point is;
Salvation is provided for all, but ONLY those who submit and receive it, HAVE IT.
Those WHO DO NOT give their own word to receive IT ~ LOSE IT.

God provides Salvation, but He does not FORCE anyone to accept it.
If one does accept it, "they give" their "own word" TO God to accept it.
God does not accept "your provided Salvation" for you. You do, or you do not. Period.

Jas 5
[12] let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay;

The giving is ONCE, the receiving is ONCE. And ONCE a person accepts their Salvation, it is permanent.



No. Christ KEEPS YOU, because you "cooperated", ie BELIEVED.
No. Your power (of cooperation) does not KEEP you.
Christ's Power KEEPS you.

1 John 2 [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1. Moses said in Exodus 32:32 when the children of Israel sinned and God was going to kill them, to blot his name out of the book also.
God said he would not do that but only those who sinned.

2. In the Ezekiel passages he said he would not remember their righteousness no more if they did not Repent.
The righteousness of the law was the man that doeth them shall live in them Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:12.
God is no respect or of persons in the Old and New Testaments both.

3. To be true love we must freely choose to cooperate with God. He will not make us do what we don't want to.
He has given us all the tools to overcome but we must cooperate with him.
Calvin believed in complete sovereignty of God to save the saved no matter if they turned completely back to serving Satan in which state they would be unregenerate just like the wicked.
Ephesians 5:7 says do not be partakers with the sinners for you know what their punishment is.
1 John 2:23-24 gives the condition for eternal life by using the word if. Jerry kelso

 

[SBC]

3. To be true love we must freely choose to cooperate with God. He will not make us do what we don't want to.

And what exactly do you believe is "freely choosing to cooperate with God" ?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

And what exactly do you believe is "freely choosing to cooperate with God" ?

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1. Choose you this day whom you will serve? Joshua posed this question to Israel if they thought it was evil to serve God.

2. A relationship takes two people cooperating to make it work.
To be the truest kind of love is for both to voluntarily choose of one's own volition of desire, purpose and goal.
1 Corinthians 13:5: Charity doesn't behave itself unseemly. True love doesn't force itself on anyone.
Love wil do everything in having patience and be kind, and not envy and doesn't push itself forward or puff up with pride.
It doesn't behave itself out of character or is not easily provoked, thinking no evil or not ready to suspect evil or gives the benefit of the doubt.
It doesn't rejeoice in sin but it does in truth.
Love bears, believes, hopeth and endureth all things.
Love doesn't coerce or force in a mandatory way if the person makes up their mind they don't want to serve God.

3. 1 John 2:23-25; Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledge the Son hath the Father also.
Let that therefore abide in you which ye had heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the father.
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
This passage is about deniers and acknowledgers of the Son and the Father.
The previous passage was talking more about professors and not true believers.
However, in verse 24 is directly talking about believers.
What abides in those Christians from the beginning goes back to 1 John 1:1-2 which was talking about the apostles personal experience with Christ and the fact of the gospel of the cross, resurrection and eternal life.
The word if is a word of condition.
If that which ye have heard from the beginning (which is eternal life) shall remain in you, ye shall also continue in the Son and in the Father.
Obviously, if you don't let salvation remain in you then you would lose salvation because of not meeting the condition.
And this is that promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
John 17:3; And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent.

4. Ephesians 5:1-7; starts out out encouraging to walk in love as Children of God.
The misconduct of sin as Christians we are not to commit.
Verse 5 shows that these sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
These sins can be commit these sins and fall into strongholds.
Verse 6 Paul warns to not let man deceive Christians with vain words. Why? Because of these things come th the wrath of God upon the children of obedience. These are the result is sin.
Verse 7; Paul says point blank, Be not partakers with them.
In essence if one partakes with the sinners and forsakes God and becomes a servant of sin again then they would have to suffer the same consequences as sinners.

5. James 5:19-20; Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converters the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul from death and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Sinners who have never been saved cannot err from the truth for they have not the truth to begin with. Jerry kelso

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1. Moses said in Exodus 32:32 when the children of Israel sinned and God was going to kill them, to blot his name out of the book also.
God said he would not do that but only those who sinned.

2. In the Ezekiel passages he said he would not remember their righteousness no more if they did not Repent.
The righteousness of the law was the man that doeth them shall live in them Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:12.
God is no respect or of persons in the Old and New Testaments both.

3. To be true love we must freely choose to cooperate with God. He will not make us do what we don't want to.
He has given us all the tools to overcome but we must cooperate with him.
Calvin believed in complete sovereignty of God to save the saved no matter if they turned completely back to serving Satan in which state they would be unregenerate just like the wicked.
Ephesians 5:7 says do not be partakers with the sinners for you know what their punishment is.

1 John 2:23-24 gives the condition for eternal life by using the word if. Jerry kelso[/QUOTE]

3. To be true love we must freely choose to cooperate with God.

Well my friend ~ Everything hinges on "IF"....'IF" one BELIEVES.
The greatest thing a man can DO, is lay down his life for a friend.
"IF" he believes Jesus accounts him as a friend.
"IF" he believes and accounts Jesus as his friend AND lays down his life for his friend, Jesus, that man has accomplished, his reasonable service to God.

John 15
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 15
[15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

James 2
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Rom 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Gal 2
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It is not about you striving to "cooperate". It is about you believing and you giving your life to God. It is God that KEEPS you. You haven't the power to keep yourself. It's Gods POWER within you that KEEPS you.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

1 John 2:23-24 gives the condition for eternal life by using the word if. Jerry kelso

Well my friend ~ Everything hinges on "IF"....'IF" one BELIEVES.
The greatest thing a man can DO, is lay down his life for a friend.
"IF" he believes Jesus accounts him as a friend.
"IF" he believes and accounts Jesus as his friend AND lays down his life for his friend, Jesus, that man has accomplished, his reasonable service to God.

John 15
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 15
[15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

James 2
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Rom 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Gal 2
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It is not about you striving to "cooperate". It is about you believing and you giving your life to God. It is God that KEEPS you. You haven't the power to keep yourself. It's Gods POWER within you that KEEPS you.

God Bless,
SBC[/QUOTE]

sbc,

1. You didn't disprove 1 John 2:232-25.
God does keep us if we cooperate by believing. If we are believing we are abiding because our seed remains in him and if not then our seed would not be in him.

2. I don't believe that one can keep themselves saved but even in salvation when the Spirit draws us and convicts us we have to make a free will choice and believe by faith and confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead.
God wants us to cooperate.
If he makes us do everything as in compulsion then we are robots.

3. Calvin says that man is totally depraved and because God is sovereign we have no choice in whether or not we are saved, and atonement was only for those chosen to be saved and grace was irresistible to keep them saved and persevere no matter how sinful they lived.
Now Calvinist would not explain it quite that way but Calvin did not not believe in evangelism of witnessing because God chose who would be saved and who wasn't.
He was very legalistic with people in the church.
He also had Servitus and others burned at the stake for not agreeing with his views on the Bible thinking he was doing God's service. This is sorta like the crusades and even Paul who said he kept the law perfectly and killed Christians at the same time thinking he was doing God service and found out he was wrong and fortunately God gave him grace.
For a long time many Calvinist fundamentalist churches were very legalistic.
I am not indicting everyone or just trying to be merely stereotypical towards Calvinist or that none of them were saved etc. I do think that it was interesting in the time frame of churches that I used to perform in.
I do realize that there were other period of times many years ago that didn't believe in Calvinism and were just as legalistic. Not understanding law and grace is usually the culprit anyway.

4. I want to say that I believe one could live free from sin because of the overcoming power of God is so powerful. It is a possibility not a probability. Why? Not God's fault. Man's fault because of disobedience of his own choice.
God hates sin and saved us from sin. If he is sovereign in everything why wouldn't he be sovereign in keeping us from sinning at all.
We don't have to sin to learn a lesson. We can make mistakes because of lack of knowledge and learn lessons from them.
I've talked to some Calvinist who don't mind falling into sin because God can get more glory from it when we repent.
According to Romans 6 this is not true.
Paul said to abstain from all evil but that doesn't always happen. So when we sin I guess God's sovereignty failed?

5. The point is that most Christians are not trying to run away and go awol on God no matter how much they sin.
God looks at the heart more than trying to tally up how much you sin. We will be judged on how we built upon the foundation of the church on works such as wood, hay, and stubble or silver and gold etc. That won't effect our souls.
But if we defile the temple to the point where we change masters read Romans 6 about yielding to and we stay in the state of apostasy then we are no longer God's child and we will reap what we sow Galatians 6:7-8. It is a possibility but not a probability with most Christians. Jerry kelso

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1. Choose you this day whom you will serve? Joshua posed this question to Israel if they thought it was evil to serve God.

2. A relationship takes two people cooperating to make it work.
To be the truest kind of love is for both to voluntarily choose of one's own volition of desire, purpose and goal.
1 Corinthians 13:5: Charity doesn't behave itself unseemly. True love doesn't force itself on anyone.
Love wil do everything in having patience and be kind, and not envy and doesn't push itself forward or puff up with pride.
It doesn't behave itself out of character or is not easily provoked, thinking no evil or not ready to suspect evil or gives the benefit of the doubt.
It doesn't rejeoice in sin but it does in truth.
Love bears, believes, hopeth and endureth all things.
Love doesn't coerce or force in a mandatory way if the person makes up their mind they don't want to serve God.

3. 1 John 2:23-25; Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledge the Son hath the Father also.
Let that therefore abide in you which ye had heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the father.
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
This passage is about deniers and acknowledgers of the Son and the Father.
The previous passage was talking more about professors and not true believers.
However, in verse 24 is directly talking about believers.
What abides in those Christians from the beginning goes back to 1 John 1:1-2 which was talking about the apostles personal experience with Christ and the fact of the gospel of the cross, resurrection and eternal life.
The word if is a word of condition.
If that which ye have heard from the beginning (which is eternal life) shall remain in you, ye shall also continue in the Son and in the Father.
Obviously, if you don't let salvation remain in you then you would lose salvation because of not meeting the condition.
And this is that promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
John 17:3; And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent.

4. Ephesians 5:1-7; starts out out encouraging to walk in love as Children of God.
The misconduct of sin as Christians we are not to commit.
Verse 5 shows that these sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
These sins can be commit these sins and fall into strongholds.
Verse 6 Paul warns to not let man deceive Christians with vain words. Why? Because of these things come th the wrath of God upon the children of obedience. These are the result is sin.
Verse 7; Paul says point blank, Be not partakers with them.
In essence if one partakes with the sinners and forsakes God and becomes a servant of sin again then they would have to suffer the same consequences as sinners.

5. James 5:19-20; Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converters the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul from death and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Sinners who have never been saved cannot err from the truth for they have not the truth to begin with. Jerry kelso

2. A relationship takes two people cooperating to make it work.
To be the truest kind of love is for both to voluntarily choose of one's own volition of desire, purpose and goal.

Thanks for your response.

I see the relationship between two humans, precisely how you describe.
~ declaring love OF and FOR each other, and hope it be so.
~ declaring agreements between each other, and hope it be so.

~ such declarations are by the word of, "yes", of the humans.

I see the relationship between a human and the Lord a bit different;
Meaning;
~ A human who chooses to have a relationship with the Lord is about the human declaring true belief, from the heart, IN the Lord.

~ such declarations are by the word of, "yes", of the humans.

The "hope", is not part of the equation.
There is no question, or hope, that the Lord loves the man.
There is no question, or hope, that the man loves the Lord.

A human has not the power, to be perfectly faithful to another human.
Nor does a human have the power, to be perfectly faithful to the Lord.

However the Lord DOES have the power to be perfectly faithful to a human.

And a man who, declares, from his heart, true belief IN the Lord, the human is giving themselves TO the Lord, for the Lord's Power, to KEEP the man in perfect faithfulness, TO the Lord.

This IS the difference. A man does not HOPE the Lord will keep him in perfect faithfulness. The man TRUSTS, without doubt, it is so.

Rom 8 [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Your "cooperation" comment, is suitable between humans, each controlling their own thoughts and actions, by their own power.

However, I disagree, there is a "cooperation" element between, a human and the Lord, once a mans belief has been declared to the Lord. I believe the man is submitting his LIFE to the Lords perfect POWER, to for the Lord to KEEP the man unto the Lord, forever.

Summarizing:
The Lord DOES have the power to be perfectly faithful to a human.
A human DOES, with Gods power, have the power to be perfectly faithful to the Lord.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1. You didn't disprove 1 John 2:232-25.
God does keep us if we cooperate by believing. If we are believing we are abiding because our seed remains in him and if not then our seed would not be in him.

Friend, you are barking up the wrong tree, if you think I have ANY intent to disprove Scripture.

WHO said, to not BELIEVE? Did you MISS, my beginning comment to YOU?
Allow me to REPEAT.

Well my friend ~ Everything hinges on "IF"....'IF" one BELIEVES.

It appeared as "your" cooperation comment, was about a man, with belief, having to rely on his OWN power to "cooperate" with the Lord.

If that BE the case, I disagree. I believe a man who IS in belief, is KEPT in faithfulness TO the Lord, of and by the Lords Power.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

Friend, you are barking up the wrong tree, if you think I have ANY intent to disprove Scripture.

WHO said, to not BELIEVE? Did you MISS, my beginning comment to YOU?
Allow me to REPEAT.

Well my friend ~ Everything hinges on "IF"....'IF" one BELIEVES.

It appeared as "your" cooperation comment, was about a man, with belief, having to rely on his OWN power to "cooperate" with the Lord.

If that BE the case, I disagree. I believe a man who IS in belief, is KEPT in faithfulness TO the Lord, of and by the Lords Power.

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1. A man who is in belief is the state he is in a to be faithful.
This has nothing to do with not being able to changing their mind to go completely apostate and stay in that state.
I have to go but I'll be back. Jerry kelso

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1. A man who is in belief is the state he is in a to be faithful.
This has nothing to do with not being able to changing their mind to go completely apostate and stay in that state.
I have to go but I'll be back. Jerry kelso

I have spoken extensively on the difference between belief and a mans true heartfelt submission of his belief unto the Lord.

A man simply in belief, without submission, without the Lords forgiving and changing the man; can fall away in belief;

However not so, for a man in submission, with the Lords forgiveness and changing.

cul8er

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Dan61861]

It is not about you striving to "cooperate". It is about you believing and you giving your life to God. It is God that KEEPS you. You haven't the power to keep yourself. It's Gods POWER within you that KEEPS you.

God Bless,
SBC

Amen...Amen...SBC.

I can do NOTHING without Christ.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[jerry kelso]

I have spoken extensively on the difference between belief and a mans true heartfelt submission of his belief unto the Lord.

A man simply in belief, without submission, without the Lords forgiving and changing the man; can fall away in belief;

However not so, for a man in submission, with the Lords forgiveness and changing.

cul8er

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1. A man in belief and submission to God will always be kept secure.
At the same time, a man in belief and submission to God can also fall from grace Galatians 5:1-5 and go into apostasy by being entangled by the snares of the enemy by changing his mind and heart and life back to the enemy and not repenting.
Those that commit the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21 will not enter the Kingdom of God. This was spoken to Christians.
Got to again. Jerry kelso

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1. A man in belief and submission to God will always be kept secure.
At the same time, a man in belief and submission to God can also fall from grace Galatians 5:1-5 and go into apostasy by being entangled by the snares of the enemy by changing his mind and heart and life back to the enemy and not repenting.
Those that commit the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21 will not enter the Kingdom of God. This was spoken to Christians.
Got to again. Jerry kelso

Gal.5
[1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Keep in Context.
Nothing mentions Christians. Nothing in scripture ever says, the Disciples, the Apostles CALLED themselves Christians. Paul spoke to mixed crowds of Jews and Gentiles; believers and unbelievers.

Who Paul is speaking TO, ARE, people gathered, WHO HAVE come to BELIEVE and HAVE accepted Christ....which Paul calls them "us", calls them "you". Paul is being specific of himself, and only the ones listening who HAVE accepted Christ Jesus. Others in the crowd, who have not accepted Christ, are not the "us".

Gal 5:1 - specific to "us", believers.
Gal 5:1 - specific to "us", NOT being yoked with "those who are NOT us", believers in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:2 - circumcision - Paul is speaking to male Jews specific, not Gentiles. Male Jews, by Jewish Law, were foreskin circumcised. Paul is telling them, THAT foreskin circumcision was ACCORDING to the law. Paul is telling them, THAT foreskin profits, gained/gains them NOTHING.
IOW- Foreskin circumcision, for them, for their children, according to OT law, according to Jewish tradition, is no longer necessary. A new KIND of circumcision is what profits a man who has submitted to Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:3 - expounds on the Jewish foreskin circumcision. Preaching, foreskin circumcision as a promise to OBEY the whole OT Law, KEEPS one subject TO the WHOLE OT LAW, which is fulfilled by Christ, thus, the subjection to it, is now superseded, by what is required hence Christ-forward.

Gal 5:4 - continues expounding - that it doesn't work both ways - foreskin circumcision of the OT law, keeps you subjected TO the OT Law. Trusting Jesus fulfilled the OT LAW, thus subjects one to Christ Jesus, and NOT the OT LAW.

Gal 5:5 - is Paul speaking to Jews and Gentiles, as "us", those in belief, Jews specific WHO HAVE set aside foreskin circumcision in subjection to the OT law, as all listening WHO HAVE received the Spirit of God....AND are waiting "for the hope of righteousness by faith."

What are they who have submitted and received the Spirit of God, "hoping for"?

Precisely what every man receiving the Spirit of God, "waits and hopes" for.
God giving "us" faith, giving us "FULL" faithFULLness.
God giving "us" such FULL faithfulness, AS WE keep following and learning, His giving increase of our FAITH.
And the expectation of receiving FULLNESS of faith, which results in our being accounted, according to God, in righteousness.

The DIFFERENCE, between what you and I believe IS;

You Believe -

A man in belief and submission to God will always be kept secure.
At the same time, a man in belief and submission to God can also fall from grace

I Believe, what you teach is an oxymoron. Saying kept secure, but can fall from grace.

A man SECURE, does not FALL from anything, NOT belief, NOT faith, NOT grace.
A man SECURE, IS SECURE BECAUSE of the mans BELIEF, Gods GRACE, Gods giving of FAITH.

A man who submits, in his own full truth of his heart - IS what causes God to act TO secure the man.

ONCE a man IS SECURED with GOD......GOD UNDOES NOTHING....God is faithful.

Pay attention to WHO Paul is teaching. He is teaching men "young, new, in faith".
Any person "young, new in faith", ARE NOT STEEPED, in faith. And why Paul repeatedly in his teaching, WARNS them, hang with others IN FAITH, keep learning, keep following along WITH those IN FAITH, "so their faith will grow, become deepened". He teaches, to STAY AWAY from, those NOT in faith, BECAUSE, their faith is NOT yet strong enough, to resist temptations of unbelievers who can negatively influence them.

Personally, I see you as teaching with a struggle -
Saying one thing, but truly believing another.

"will always be kept secure.
can also fall from grace"

If I were a person, wanting to learn about Christ Jesus, and sought out a teacher to teach me about Christ, and HEARD what you say. My reaction would be ~
what is the point of submission ~ the submission of belief and security is a lie and can be revoked.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

Gal.5
[1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Keep in Context.
Nothing mentions Christians. Nothing in scripture ever says, the Disciples, the Apostles CALLED themselves Christians. Paul spoke to mixed crowds of Jews and Gentiles; believers and unbelievers.

Who Paul is speaking TO, ARE, people gathered, WHO HAVE come to BELIEVE and HAVE accepted Christ....which Paul calls them "us", calls them "you". Paul is being specific of himself, and only the ones listening who HAVE accepted Christ Jesus. Others in the crowd, who have not accepted Christ, are not the "us".

Gal 5:1 - specific to "us", believers.
Gal 5:1 - specific to "us", NOT being yoked with "those who are NOT us", believers in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:2 - circumcision - Paul is speaking to male Jews specific, not Gentiles. Male Jews, by Jewish Law, were foreskin circumcised. Paul is telling them, THAT foreskin circumcision was ACCORDING to the law. Paul is telling them, THAT foreskin profits, gained/gains them NOTHING.
IOW- Foreskin circumcision, for them, for their children, according to OT law, according to Jewish tradition, is no longer necessary. A new KIND of circumcision is what profits a man who has submitted to Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:3 - expounds on the Jewish foreskin circumcision. Preaching, foreskin circumcision as a promise to OBEY the whole OT Law, KEEPS one subject TO the WHOLE OT LAW, which is fulfilled by Christ, thus, the subjection to it, is now superseded, by what is required hence Christ-forward.

Gal 5:4 - continues expounding - that it doesn't work both ways - foreskin circumcision of the OT law, keeps you subjected TO the OT Law. Trusting Jesus fulfilled the OT LAW, thus subjects one to Christ Jesus, and NOT the OT LAW.

Gal 5:5 - is Paul speaking to Jews and Gentiles, as "us", those in belief, Jews specific WHO HAVE set aside foreskin circumcision in subjection to the OT law, as all listening WHO HAVE received the Spirit of God....AND are waiting "for the hope of righteousness by faith."

What are they who have submitted and received the Spirit of God, "hoping for"?

Precisely what every man receiving the Spirit of God, "waits and hopes" for.
God giving "us" faith, giving us "FULL" faithFULLness.
God giving "us" such FULL faithfulness, AS WE keep following and learning, His giving increase of our FAITH.
And the expectation of receiving FULLNESS of faith, which results in our being accounted, according to God, in righteousness.

The DIFFERENCE, between what you and I believe IS;

You Believe -



I Believe, what you teach is an oxymoron. Saying kept secure, but can fall from grace.

A man SECURE, does not FALL from anything, NOT belief, NOT faith, NOT grace.
A man SECURE, IS SECURE BECAUSE of the mans BELIEF, Gods GRACE, Gods giving of FAITH.

A man who submits, in his own full truth of his heart - IS what causes God to act TO secure the man.

ONCE a man IS SECURED with GOD......GOD UNDOES NOTHING....God is faithful.

Pay attention to WHO Paul is teaching. He is teaching men "young, new, in faith".
Any person "young, new in faith", ARE NOT STEEPED, in faith. And why Paul repeatedly in his teaching, WARNS them, hang with others IN FAITH, keep learning, keep following along WITH those IN FAITH, "so their faith will grow, become deepened". He teaches, to STAY AWAY from, those NOT in faith, BECAUSE, their faith is NOT yet strong enough, to resist temptations of unbelievers who can negatively influence them.

Personally, I see you as teaching with a struggle -
Saying one thing, but truly believing another.



If I were a person, wanting to learn about Christ Jesus, and sought out a teacher to teach me about Christ, and HEARD what you say. My reaction would be ~
what is the point of submission ~ the submission of belief and security is a lie and can be revoked.

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1. No Christians mentioned in scripture?
Acts 11:26 in the latter part of the verse; AND THE DISCIPLES WERE CALLED CHRISTIANS FIRST IN ANTIOCH.

2. Galatians 1:6; I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.
Verse 7; which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel.
Paul is trying to correct, warn and get them back to the truth from which they erred.
Galatians 5:1; Christians stand fast in liberty which makes us free which is salvation. They can be entangled again with the yoke of bondage not unbelievers.
Paul said they were entangled again and needed to get back to the truth that sets them free. This is the context scripturally.

3. V2, if a person is circumcised Christ shall not profit because of the spiritual circumcision made without hands Colossians 2:11.

4. V3; Those who circumcise the flesh is a debtor to the law.

5. V4; Those Jewish believers had fell away from grace by trying to be justified by the law from which they were saved in the first place. So they were NC believers gone astray.
The unbeliever who believes and has not been saved cannot fall from grace.
V5; the righteousness of faith is through the Spirit.
V 6; Circumcision and uncircumcision availeth to anything
V7; ye did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth? They obeyed the truth and then didn't.

6. It is not an oxymoron that God expects us to cooperate with him in our relationship so it will be a real love relationship. We are not robots.

7. If God uses his sovereignty to make things happen then why do Christians sin and backslide and apostasize?
If a flower is not given sunshine and water it will die.
All nature is dependent upon proper and the right amount of air, sunshine, and normal conditions to keep it alive.
God allows us to make decisions right or wrong. If we choose to continue to sin and end up in a stronghold and the more a Christian sins the more we justify the sin till the conscience is seated and then goes into apostasy without God.
This is not a probability with Christians but it is a possibility with some. It all depends on cultivating your relationship with Christ.
The average Christian has a made up mind to keep serving God.
A Christian shouldn't fear loss of salvation because of missing the mark if they are having an ongoing relationship with God.
They should fear if they change masters as in back to Satan and the life of sin because they are reprobates or at least unregenerate. They are not living a Holy life and without Holiness no man shall see the Lord Hebrews 12:14. Jerry kelso

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1. No Christians mentioned in scripture?

Irrelevant question.
Keep in Context.
Galations is the text, not Acts.

2. Galatians 1:6; I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.
Verse 7; which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel.
Paul is trying to correct, warn and get them back to the truth from which they erred.
Galatians 5:1; Christians stand fast in liberty which makes us free which is salvation. They can be entangled again with the yoke of bondage not unbelievers.
Paul said they were entangled again and needed to get back to the truth that sets them free. This is the context scripturally.

And? Your NEW point? Nothing new. I already addressed that.
"be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

3. V2, if a person is circumcised Christ shall not profit because of the spiritual circumcision made without hands Colossians 2:11.

And? Your NEW point? Already addressed that.
"A new KIND of circumcision"

IF you wanted to add, add something relevant, revealing the NEW KIND of circumcision.
It is a CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART.
Rom 2; [29] circumcision is that of the heart

4. V3; Those who circumcise the flesh is a debtor to the law.
5. V4; Those Jewish believers had fell away from grace by trying to be justified by the law from which they were saved in the first place. So they were NC believers gone astray.
The unbeliever who believes and has not been saved cannot fall from grace.
V5; the righteousness of faith is through the Spirit.
V 6; Circumcision and uncircumcision availeth to anything
V7; ye did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth? They obeyed the truth and then didn't.

6. It is not an oxymoron that God expects us to cooperate with him in our relationship so it will be a real love relationship. We are not robots.

I will retract, oxymoron.
Additionally, I prefer using scriptural words. Conform, Obey, Agree, Commit, Submit.
Additionally, I do not believe God expects, but demands and knows we whom He has forgiven will OBEY.
Additionally, I believe God is Patient, to whom He has forgiven, to LEARN obedience, and has provided teachers to teach and remind.

Matt 5: [37] But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay:
Gal 6 [7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked:
God is patient. God is patient WHILE a forgiven man is learning obedience.

You appear to put upon a man, that the man is in control to "cooperate", as you say.
However, I BELIEVE, a man WHO submits to God, "gives" God "control" of his life.
I BELIEVE, God accepts the control, to use His POWER over a mans life.
I BELIEVE, God TEACHES the man, according to GODS working within the man HOW TO,
acceptably OBEY God, and that HOW God works within a man, IS according to Gods own Patience, and is not the works of the individual man.

7. If God uses his sovereignty to make things happen then why do Christians sin and backslide and apostasize?

Ignoring your mention of Christian - and rather focusing on "whosoever" is born of God,
is forgiven ALL of his sins. His old sinful body is DEAD. His new body is ALIVE in Christ's body. Dead body's do not sin. Body's in Christ, do not sin.

You are trying to claim; You have;
A forgiven dead body (crucified with Christ).
But yet still live "with Christ", in that old dead body.
That OLD DEAD BODY, "is DEAD", yet it still has it's natural life. (its' blood).
You "don't trust", what you can not see.
You 'don't see a dead physical body, void of it's blood', but that IS WHAT God sees.
That IS what God ACCOUNTS.
God has given you a NEW BODY, to live in, which ALSO you can not see.

1 Cor 12
[27] Now ye are the body of Christ.

Your old body IS DEAD.
The Sins of your old body are mortified, KILLED, DEAD, FORGIVEN, REMEMBERED NO MORE.
Your NEW body IS Christ's risen, pure, perfect body, without sin, that CAN NOT SIN.
You CAN NOT SEE Christ's BODY.
You CAN NOT SEE the BODY God has prepared for you.
You CAN NOT SEE, with your human eyes......AND WHY TRUSTING GOD, TRUSTING GODS WORD of TRUTH is necessary.

Pretending - YOUR old body IS alive IN CHRIST, and remaining the same, but try really hard to not sin - IS A HOAX.

Your OLD BODY, was DEAD to God, BEFORE you became forgiven.
Your OLD BODY, was DEAD to God, WHEN you became forgiven.
Your OLD BODY, is DEAD to God, AFTER your OLD DEAD BODY became forgiven.
Your OLD BODY, is NOW, forgiven, washed, sanctified, justified, covered, and STILL DEAD TO God.
Your OLD DEAD BODY, is NOW, "in waiting" to be REDEEMED and CHANGED, together with ALL OLD DEAD BODY'S, of the faithful, born of God.

Your NEW BODY, is CHRIST'S BODY.
Your NEW BODY, doesn't "hope" it doesn't sin.
Your NEW BODY, doesn't "try" not to sin.
Your NEW BODY, CAN NOT SIN!

OXYMORON -
pretending you STILL LIVE, in your old dead body of sin...
WHILE claiming YOU LIVE, in Christ's pure body.

God allows us to make decisions right or wrong.

God allows His Patience, for a man to learn how to serve Him.

If we choose to continue to sin

Then you have;
1) not BEEN forgiven, not had your old body mortified, not become born of God, and do not live in Christ' pure body.
or
2) have not Trusted to know, or believe, Gods TRUTH.
and
3) do not teach, in His NAME, his truth and understanding.

God IS PATIENT, for an individual, to come to understanding.

God is NOT PATIENT, for an individual, to use HIS NAME, and teach, the UNDERSTANDING of the created, trumps the UNDERSTANDING of God.

Matt 7
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Who IS born of God, and IN Gods NAME; says God cleansed them with Christ's blood, forgave their sins, sanctified they body, covered their sin, gave them a new body of Christ to dwell in and they can not sin......but hey, all the Word of God was true..... BUT, what is more TRUE, is man's word, saying they DO continue to sin?

Who says; a man born of God, continues to sin?

According to scripture; a man the Lord does not know, and is a worker of iniquity.

the more a Christian sins

A man born of God, CAN NOT SIN.

the more we justify the sin till the conscience is seated and then goes into apostasy without God.

Agree, you sin and justify your sin.

However, Men born of God, do not claim to sin, BECAUSE they can not sin. Because they LIVE IN CHRIST and CHRIST LIVES IN THEM.

This is not a probability with Christians but it is a possibility with some. It all depends on cultivating your relationship with Christ.

No. The "depending", is on being "BORN OF GOD".

The average Christian has a made up mind to keep serving God.

That is too bad, for the "average Christian", to rely on "his mind".

Rom 8: [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:

A Christian shouldn't fear loss of salvation because of missing the mark if they are having an ongoing relationship with God.
They should fear if they change masters as in back to Satan and the life of sin because they are reprobates or at least unregenerate. They are not living a Holy life and without Holiness no man shall see the Lord Hebrews 12:14. Jerry kelso

Your "Christians" have a dilemma.
Because a man WHO has been given SALVATION, is born of God, and NOTHING can cause a man "born of God", to "change masters", or otherwise DENY God is His master.

According to Scripture, Gods Word; a man born of God, can not sin.
According to you, a man born of God; claims he does continue to sin, and the mans own word justifies his sin.

According to Scripture, what you teach, is NOT the WILL of God, nor what you are doing by your teaching, is the WILL of God.

God Bless,
SBC