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Saved from what?
Ultimately, perishing in the lake of fire. The Second Death.
While the scriptures do refer to some people who were false converts, it is a logical fallacy to assert that all of those were false converts. That would be like saying since those chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. The sample may not be representative of the whole, otherwise known as an overgeneralization.Yes, it is referring to false converts.
Are you suggesting that once they are in his hand all free will is removed from them ?Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 6:37-6:40
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 10:27-29
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?
Not really the subject of the point I was making. See Matthew 18:15-20Rebuke? I'm going to have to look that up.
A Christian forgives sins against them as they themselves are forgiven sins. It's what makes us sons (and daughters) of God. It's what grace is.
His sheep hear His voice.Yes there is eternal security, but it can be lost once you allow the thief in. So accepting safety (accepted Jesus as Savior) is part of the picture of salvation, but to continually be protected (accepting Jesus as our Lord) is just as crucial.
I agree it is trust and obey for a servant and child of God.But until then you best watch how you live because not every one who says lord Lord will recieve salvation.
He is only coming back for those who love him and prove it through consistent obedience.
Good questions.I've been on phone for a while so I'll have to get back and scan the thread later. But for now dropping off 1 Peter 1:23
"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
For those that do not ascribe to OSAS, how would you explain this verse? If one is born again of that which is of God, which is imperishable, then that is everlasting. God will not reconsider His decision for those he claims as His children. A father loves His child unconditionally, even when they make a mess :^) (fail to attain sinless perfection by their own efforts)
That's just how I feel. I believe if one has enough sensitivity to sin they will come to realize that it is impossible to be sinless before God without full and utter dependance on Christ's propitiation, whom we would spend eons here striving to be and would never attain.
Pardon the interruption...which texts are you discussing?Nonsense, the text states that they "stand fast through faith". It says nothing about them "not quite fully believing."
Hebrews 12:No, He was remorseful and hated what he had done before he killed himself.I think he killed himself because he could not live with himself after betraying his Lord.
Romans 3-5 might be a good reference to discuss the meaning of Justification. Our standing with God.then we are not really saved are we... at best we have a promise of salvation. of course once we actually are saved we cannot be "unsaved" but until then all we can be is recipients of Christ's grace.
You bring up a good point. Jesus taught from a "positive" perspective. Matthew 5 starts with Blessed.Well.. if there was ANY verse about saved always vs lose your salvation.. we would not be talk now. No one here has "been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"
So much if not all most have no idea what it really means or is referring to. But know this.. this GIFT? Comes from a GOD..you and me are no God. And we dont see the heart we see one moment in time and we judge based on that moment. We do use the word at times to SCARE people.. God can not.
This is a gift given by God.. by grace. You took it received it by faith. Angels that fell knew God.. stood with GOD in all his Glory and power.. they tasted of it.. for..who knows how long. There is no hope for them. What could God say? They KNOW what they were giving up.
God never talks like this. There is no fear in God. I have never thought like this other then when I was 1st saved. Came from satan that can only lie. Then God telling me teaching me about "righteousness" that didnt come from anything I do buy my belief in His son.
I doubt anyone can just walk away..lol..never shared with the sweet sweet Holy Spirit or tasted of the power of the world to come... yeah.. NOT that many in this whole earth. But I PRAISE MY GOD in JESUS name I cant read the heart. Its HIS kids.. were talking about being away from Him for ever... not the kind of subject I really want to just CHAT with a Father about....
peace out
Can you point me to a NT example of someone losing the Holy Spirit. An example of one becoming "unborn again?"While the scriptures do refer to some people who were false converts, it is a logical fallacy to assert that all of those were false converts. That would be like saying since those chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. The sample may not be representative of the whole, otherwise known as an overgeneralization.
Our will is either in bondage to sin and death or slaves to righteousness.Are you suggesting that once they are in his hand all free will is removed from them ?
Just because no one can be “Taken” out of his hand does not mean they cannot choose to remove themselves because they love present pleasure of sin more.
Jn 3:16 - the word "believes" in this verse is from the Greek word "pisteuōn" which is a present participle better translated as "believing." Thus one has eternal life as long as one continues believing. If a Christian for any reason stops believing, then eternal life is no longer to be had.
What does continuing to believe mean as I don't see that in the text nor tense?Jn 6:37-40 - same as above as "believes" is "pisteuōn" in v.40. Eternal life and being raised up at the last day is contingent on continuing to believe.
An understanding of the verb tenses is important
If salvation were only based upon a one-time moment of belief made in the past, only the aorist tense would be used in verses describing how to be saved. Such is not the case
Jn 10:27-29 - the promises contained in vs. 27-29 are only promised to those sheep who "listen" and "follow." Conversely those sheep who do not listen and follow do not have the assurance of eternal life and not being plucked out of Gods' hand.
Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
You said:John 6:37-6:40
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
You said:John 10:27-29
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
You said:Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?
I agree it is trust and obey for a servant and child of God.
With that said, how do you quantify consistent obedience?
Jesus said pick up your cross, deny yourself, and come follow me. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:2 says we are to live the rest of our time here (on this Earth) not to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Why is the Father perfect? Because He is holy and does not sin. In 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Yet, you want me to believe otherwise?
Most excellent quotes.
How can one quantity the above?
Sinless perfection?
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