One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

mmbattlestar said:

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 10:27-29


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."


Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

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This has been debated since at least the reformation , the advent of Calvinism and Arminianism , etc. ( I see some of my catholic brothers/sisters commenting so maybe the debate has been even longer. ) I guess it is only normal to " make our election and calling sure " . Am I saved -have I been saved -am I being saved , etc. ? Maybe the better question is , " What kind of relationship do I have with the Father , through the Son by His Holy Spirit ? Have I received a love for the TRUTH ? Am I being conformed into His image ? Am I striving to enter the straight gate ( because of the Love He showed me ) ? Do I desire to manifest Him ? Or is my salvation all about ME ? What about His Holy Name ? What about His beloved Son ?
My fear is we have even turned salvation into another reason to glory in our flesh rather than to glory in God the Father and His Love/ Sacrifice , Jesus of Nazareth .
If we strive for the TRUTH and do love . mercy, meekness and humility ( by His Spirit ) , won't salvation take care of itself ? I may believe anything I want but yet the truth remains....faith and belief although closely related are not synonyms.

Halbhh said:

Was he being given more time? It would seem very likely.

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Personally.....I believe God is patient with humanity and allows us as much time as necessary to fulfill His will:

Ronald said:

As one goes through this list, you will come across parables which clearly teach that some fall away from the God, an apparent faith and are cut off, BUT they were never saved to begin with. As in the 10 Virgins or the Sower of the Seed, those who are born again cannot lose their salvation, they have been baptized by the Holy Spirit, spiritually cleansed and born from above and now part of the Body of Christ. There are many who will fall, but their seeds were never planted in fertile soil, they did not produce fruit - they were never true believers. Many attend church and go through the motions but live fully in and of the world throughout the week. Many are lukewarm - we know what happens to them. Faith is a gift, once given is not taken back, it is permanent. If we had to earn this gift, then maybe we could also lose it. But it is not earned and not based on what we did or do, it is based on what Christ did.
It is impossible to have your spirit cleansed and quickened with the Holy Spirit living in you and then later on He decides to move out! This He does not change! This would also imply that He made a mistake.

Listen, God does not change His mind. He knows who will be saved and who will not be saved, therefore only cleanses and baptizes His own! It doesn't make sense that He would do something and He already knows won't work!
He holds onto His sheep and NO ONE can snatch them out of His hand.
"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38
Our salvation once saved is eternal. Otherwise faith would be uncertain, the gift would be uncertain, the promise would be uncertain, fear would be present and worry for the rest of our lives. Faith is foundational and it's true some are weak in the faith but nevertheless, a gift from God is for certain and eternal. "If you believe in Me, you will have eternal life." That promise is not conditional, His love is unconditional.
The apparent warnings, the cutting off, blotting out are for the half-heated unbelievers. Maybe they got excited for a while, maybe they studied, got degrees attended church and looked like believers, but there are tares among the wheat. People who when tested, when troubles come, fail and fall away.
In the United States, 80% of Americans would say they believe in the God of the Bible, but really maybe half of them are born again. We see so called Christians going to gay churches, protesting for pro-choice rights and rallying for wicked liberal ways, even revising, editing and omitting Biblical truths, picking and choosing the scriptures they like and discarding the rest!
I question if they have real faith, if their seed was planted in fertile soil, if they have the Holy Spirit living in them.

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No, at Romans 11, which I quoted above, the gentiles were grafted into Christ and had faith. St. Paul warns them that they too can be cut off for unbelief, as were the Jews who preceded them.

PeaceB said:

No, most Protestants who reject OSAS would say that salvation can be lost through a loss of faith. Most would not say that it can also be lost through sin, which is the Catholic view.

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What exactly is a 'loss of faith.' How much do we need to 'lose' for our faith to endanger our standing with God? No one seems to quantify these statements. (note: I'm not asking you in particular to answer such questions).

On sin? We are told to rebuke our brothers and sisters who sin and if they are not repentant to discharge them from fellowship until repentant.

Matthew and Mark both explain where being saved is.

16 ¶ k]">[k]Behold, I send you as l]">[l]sheep in the midst of the wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and m]">[m]innocent as doves.
17 But beware of n]">[n]men, for they will deliver you up to the Councils, and will scourge you in their Synagogues.
18 And ye shall be brought to the governors and kings for my sake, in witness to them, and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour, what ye shall say.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son, and the children shall rise against their parents, and shall cause them to die.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my Name: but he that endureth to the end, he shall be saved.

He doesn't say we will be hated by men, but by ALL men. One can see this hate if they know it. I see this in many early church fathers, and their writings. I don't see it in those gnostics that were sheep, and died at the hands of Romes church. The promise was real to them.

Being saved is a continuous path of promise to seek out the spiritual will of the Father. It's not something that happens and you are locked in. This is the false teachings of men who seek followers. Christ said seek. But there are those who say "we did the seeking for you, join us".

There is no hierarchy of spirit on Earth. Just hierarchy of flesh.

Orthodoxy teaches we are saved by grace. But that is only part of the picture. Grace is the Fathers love, through patience, because we are weak. Yet as sinners, we love him above all. But our love is not perfect, as his is.

Romans:
23 a]">[a]And not only the creature, but we also which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we do sigh in b]">[b]ourselves, waiting for the adoption, even c]">[c]the redemption of our body.

24 d]">[d]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen, is not hope: for how can a man hope for that which he seeth?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, we do with patience abide for it.

Romans:
13 r]">[r]For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved.

14 But how shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? s]">[s]and how shall they believe in him, of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them which bring glad tidings of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 t]">[t]But they have not all obeyed the Gospel: for Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 v]">[v]Then faith is by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans verse 13 is always thrown around. But few refuse to see the full picture. Verse 13 "word of God" is not the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit.

John:
Howbeit, when he is come which is the spirit of truth, he will lead you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, shall he speak, and he will show you the things to come.

John:
For I have not spoken of myself: but the father which sent me, he gave me a commandment what I should say, and what I should speak.

There is a reason you can get away with blasphemy of Christ, but not the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit speaks the sons of God hears her voice. Those that don't or won't is dead in sin anyway, so unforgivable sin doesn't matter.

Being saved is the continued seeking of the will of God through the spiritual knowledge obtained through and by the Spirit. The flesh profits nothing. The Spirit quickens us.

redleghunter said:

What exactly is a 'loss of faith.' How much do we need to 'lose' for our faith to endanger our standing with God? No one seems to quantify these statements. (note: I'm not asking you in particular to answer such questions).

On sin? We are told to rebuke our brothers and sisters who sin and if they are not repentant to discharge them from fellowship until repentant.

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Rebuke? I'm going to have to look that up.

A Christian forgives sins against them as they themselves are forgiven sins. It's what makes us sons (and daughters) of God. It's what grace is.

Halbhh said:

There are mysteries involved to me. It does really seem we get more than just one chance to turn around, when conditions make us really feel differently, and able to chose a new direction than we usually do. Mysterious in a way, because I certainly cannot say it's 100% only controlled from above, or whether we also participate at all, so that there is some of our own real choice (not predetermined), and I'm ok with not being sure, and I'm definitely ok with others having a different guess than my own about what isn't entirely revealed. Thanks for telling me more of your views. With love, your brother.

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Recommend reading the canons of the Council of Orange. Let me know what you think.

The Canons of the Council of Orange
(529 AD)

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

Yes there is eternal security, but it can be lost once you allow the thief in. So accepting safety (accepted Jesus as Savior) is part of the picture of salvation, but to continually be protected (accepting Jesus as our Lord) is just as crucial.

mmbattlestar said:

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 10:27-29


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."


Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

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I agree and believe the scriptures teach eternal security because a person who has trusted in Christ as their Savior and been born again, regenerated, and a is new creation in Christ cannot become unborn, unregenerated, or go back to being an old creation since the believer has died, having their life hidden in Christ.
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Colossians 3:3-4

mmbattlestar said:

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 10:27-29


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."


Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

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I'm Hebrew and Greek the word believe trust and obey are all of the same root word.

Peter states that while by faith (which is an action one does) we grasp the hope of salvation.. That we recieve when Christ comes..not before.
Once he comes he will gather the sheep to himself.
At that point..we will literally HAVE salvation..until then we have this HOPE.

Once he returns and we HAVE salvation....then from that point forward we cannot lose it.

But until then you best watch how you live because not every one who says lord Lord will recieve salvation.
He is only coming back for those who love him and prove it through consistent obedience.

PeaceB said:

No, at Romans 11, which I quoted above, the gentiles were grafted into Christ and had faith. St. Paul warns them that they too can be cut off for unbelief, as were the Jews who preceded them.

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Right cut off for unbelief.
In Rom. 11:13. Paul says, "For I speak to you Gentiles ..."
His message was to all Gentiles, believers and unbelievers who now are parttakers of the Word of God, when prior to Christ only Jews, the chosen nation were nourished from the vine. The Bible message goes out to the world. Jesus is the source of life and truth and the world. In Him all things consist and the world is connected to the vine, life, not just spiritual life, but physical life.
Kolasis (cutting off) is used in reference to those who are then thrown into the fire, the second death. The cutting off is death, due to the wages of sin, the biggest of which is unbelief in the source of life, Jesus.

I've been on phone for a while so I'll have to get back and scan the thread later. But for now dropping off 1 Peter 1:23

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

For those that do not ascribe to OSAS, how would you explain this verse? If one is born again of that which is of God, which is imperishable, then that is everlasting. God will not reconsider His decision for those he claims as His children. A father loves His child unconditionally, even when they make a mess :^) (fail to attain sinless perfection by their own efforts)

That's just how I feel. I believe if one has enough sensitivity to sin they will come to realize that it is impossible to be sinless before God without full and utter dependance on Christ's propitiation, whom we would spend eons here striving to be and would never attain.

friend of said:

I've been on phone for a while so I'll have to get back and scan the thread later. But for now dropping off 1 Peter 1:23

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

For those that do not ascribe to OSAS, how would you explain this verse? If one is born again of that which is of God, which is imperishable, then that is everlasting. God will not reconsider His decision for those he claims as His children. A father loves His child unconditionally, even when they make a mess :^) (fail to attain sinless perfection by their own efforts)

That's just how I feel. I believe if one has enough sensitivity to sin they will come to realize that it is impossible to be sinless before God without full and utter dependance on Christ's propitiation, whom we would spend eons here striving to be and would never attain.

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Free will trumps all.

/sarcasm

Ronald said:

Right cut off for unbelief. His seed ( the Word) is thrown on Rocky or shallow soil and it grows for a while, but isn't nourished properly and withers and dies( is cut off).
Briefly, they were grafted in, given the opportunity, called, but they didn't quite fully believe.

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Nonsense, the text states that they "stand fast through faith". It says nothing about them "not quite fully believing."

Handmaid for Jesus said:

But, Judas repented.

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I hope you're not assuming that he repented because he killed himself. He was possessed by Satan when he did the deed. As has been seen in scripture, people possessed by demons can be in the habit of harming or attempting to kill themselves, and it has nothing to do with repentance.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

I hope you're not assuming that he repented because he killed himself. He was possessed by Satan when he did the deed. As has been seen in scripture, people possessed by demons can be in the habit of harming or attempting to kill themselves, and it has nothing to do with repentance.

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No, He was remorseful and hated what he had done before he killed himself.I think he killed himself because he could not live with himself after betraying his Lord.

WilliamBo said:

These are all verses stating that you CAN lose your salvation-

Matthew 13:20-21
Matthew 24:44-51
Matthew 18:28-35
Mark 4:16-18; Mark 11:25;
Mark 13:20-23;
Luke 8:13
Luke 12:42-46; John 6:60-71
John 12:44-48; John 15:5-6;
John 17:12; Acts 20:28-30;
Romans 6:12-13,16;
Romans 8:12-13;
Romans 11:20-22;
1 Corinthians 3:13-17
1 Corinthians 6:8-11
1 Corinthians 6:15-18
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
1 Corinthians 10:2,9
1 Corinthians 10:11-12
1 Corinthians 11:28-30
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
2 Corinthians 15:1-2
2 Corinthians 5: 20- 6:2
2 Corinthians 11:2
2 Corinthians 13:5
Galatians 1:6-9
Galatians 4:8-9
Galatians 5:19-21
Galatians 6: 7-9
Ephesians 5:2-6
Philippians 2: 12-16
Philippians 3:10-13
Colossians 1:21-23
Colossians 3:5-9, 24-25
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-2
1Timothy 5:8
1Timothy 5:14-15
1Tim. 6:9-10
1Tim. 6: 20-21
2 Tim. 2:11-12
Titus 3:8-11
Hebrews 2:1-3
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 3:18-4:1
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:23-29
Hebrews 12:12-17, 25
James 1:14-16
James 2:12-13
James 4:4
James 5:8-9, 19-20
2 Peter 1:3-4
2 Peter 2:1-2, 14-15, 20-22
2 Peter 3:17
1 John 2:3-4
1 John 3:14-18
1 John 5:17
2 John 8:9
Revelation 2:4-5

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Many of those are not talking about salvation but false converts.

WilliamBo said:

The NT says over and over ''do not be deceived.'' Many people are self-deceived in thinking they are saved but are not saved. Jesus said ''not all who say to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom.'' That is a very frightening passage that we all need to pay close attention to

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Yes, it is referring to false converts.

mmbattlestar said:

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 10:27-29


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."


Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

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Without love faith is worthless.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.