One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

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bbbbbb,

1. Hermeneutics. Proper exegesis is necessary to learn the truth. Of course this is basic and basis for all theologians.

2. The Law Of Moses was abolished 2 Corinthians 3:13-16.
Israel had to do 613 Commandments and a 1000 or more other statutes and commandments.
There were specific penalties if certain commandments were not done like for committing adultery was death by stoning Leviticus 20:10; John 8:1-11.
I am sure you don’t keep all those laws and you couldn’t if you wanted to and even the Jews can’t because they have no temple to sacrifice the blood of bulls and goats.
Christ came to fulfill the law is true Matthew 5:17-18
He had to fulfill what was said to him as Messiah and he did at the cross.

3. Galatians 4 not 3:24; Wherefore the law was as our schoolmaster to bring us into Christ that we might be justified by faith.
This is in the past tense which verse 23 bears out.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
The faith which should afterwards be revealed was speaking of the New Covenant which is different than the Old Covenant Hebrews 8:6-7.

4. Revelation 21:8 is New Covenant and the Old Covenant was abolished 1 Corinthians 3:13-16, Hebrews 8:6-7.
Jerry Kelso

So, why do you think only nine of the ten commandments are moral and the other one is not?

 

[jerry kelso]

So, why do you think only nine of the ten commandments are moral and the other one is not?

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1. Before I answer your question you should try to prove the scriptures that I gave you are wrong. Jerry Kelso

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbbb,

1. Before I answer your question you should try to prove the scriptures that I gave you are wrong. Jerry Kelso

1. They are irrelevant to the question at hand. Concerning the Sabbath commandments they are neither right nor wrong, unless somehow you wish to read into them some sort of theological basis for the "Moral Law".

 

[jerry kelso]

1. They are irrelevant to the question at hand. Concerning the Sabbath commandments they are neither right nor wrong, unless somehow you wish to read into them some sort of theological basis for the "Moral Law".

bbbbbb,

1. Why do you believe the Old Covenant was not abolished 1 Corinthians 3:13-16 when Hebrews 8:6-7 makes it clear that they are two different Covenants?
You can disagree but if you can’t give proof according to proper scripture it is more likely your opinion.
I believe in proper debate and rebuttal but you haven’t rebutted anything except by your opinion.
Since there are two different Covenants they are not the same law. That makes your POV irrelevant about the sabbath irrelevant.

2. I understand different POV and I am sure I understand yours already and that is why it seems you are a little buffaloed of how to answer.
Answer to Hebrews 8:6-7 Jerry Kelso

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbbb,

1. Why do you believe the Old Covenant was not abolished 1 Corinthians 3:13-16 when Hebrews 8:6-7 makes it clear that they are two different Covenants?
You can disagree but if you can’t give proof according to proper scripture it is more likely your opinion.
I believe in proper debate and rebuttal but you haven’t rebutted anything except by your opinion.
Since there are two different Covenants they are not the same law. That makes your POV irrelevant about the sabbath irrelevant.

2. I understand different POV and I am sure I understand yours already and that is why it seems you are a little buffaloed of how to answer.
Answer to Hebrews 8:6-7 Jerry Kelso

Perhaps we are talking past one another. I do maintain that the Law was fulfilled completely by Jesus Christ and that there never was, nor now is, a "Moral Law" spelled out as separate from the Law.

 

[jerry kelso]

Perhaps we are talking past one another. I do maintain that the Law was fulfilled completely by Jesus Christ and that there never was, nor now is, a "Moral Law" spelled out as separate from the Law.

bbbbbb,

1. Jesus did fulfill the Law and we are not disagreeing with that Matthew 5:17.
You seem to believe in New Covenant Theology for Jesus teachings which we would disagree with for Jesus taught the Old Covenant for he would have been accused of being a false teacher and he had to fulfill it and Israel had not yet rejected to him.
Their also had to be the death of the testator for the New Covenant
to be ratified Hebrews 9:16-17. This took place at the cross for the NC is the death, burial and resurrection message.
This was the reason the Judaizers wanted the disciples to quit preaching about it Acts 4:2.

2. Moral law is in the New Covenant but in Jesus day it was the Old Covenant he was teaching. They are two separate contexts.
Roman’s 10:4: For Christ is the end of the law (Old Covenant) for righteousness.
Then he explains that Old Covenant law of righteousness which was with Moses, which was Old Covenant.
Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant when it’s time expired and the New Covenant (his teachings to Israel under the first commission which was the KoH Matthew 4:17; 10:6-7 and the KoG Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:19-20 message. This message of Jesus of the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant in his blood Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 8:6-7.
Jerry Kelso

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbbb,

1. Jesus did fulfill the Law and we are not disagreeing with that Matthew 5:17.
You seem to believe in New Covenant Theology for Jesus teachings which we would disagree with for Jesus taught the Old Covenant for he would have been accused of being a false teacher and he had to fulfill it and Israel had not yet rejected to him.
Their also had to be the death of the testator for the New Covenant
to be ratified Hebrews 9:16-17. This took place at the cross for the NC is the death, burial and resurrection message.
This was the reason the Judaizers wanted the disciples to quit preaching about it Acts 4:2.

2. Moral law is in the New Covenant but in Jesus day it was the Old Covenant he was teaching. They are two separate contexts.
Roman’s 10:4: For Christ is the end of the law (Old Covenant) for righteousness.
Then he explains that Old Covenant law of righteousness which was with Moses, which was Old Covenant.
Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant when it’s time expired and the New Covenant (his teachings to Israel under the first commission which was the KoH Matthew 4:17; 10:6-7 and the KoG Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:19-20 message. This message of Jesus of the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant in his blood Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 8:6-7.
Jerry Kelso

"Moral Law" is a theological construct created by theologians to place believers in Jesus Christ under a yoke of bondage. Its contents vary widely according to theological schools. Unlike the Law, the "Moral Law" is nowhere enunciated as a set of defined commandments. Rather, it is a loose set of precepts and commandments gathered from various verses sprinkled in the New Testament.

 

[SBC]

"Moral Law" is a theological construct created by theologians to place believers in Jesus Christ under a yoke of bondage. Its contents vary widely according to theological schools. Unlike the Law, the "Moral Law" is nowhere enunciated as a set of defined commandments. Rather, it is a loose set of precepts and commandments gathered from various verses sprinkled in the New Testament.

Agree about supposed "moral law"; or "moral code".

Scripture speaks of the Oracles of God; ie:
His Word, as the primary factor in the Principles set forth in Christ's Doctrine.

Heb 5 ~ Heb 6

Freewill is primary to a mans election to choose.

God sets a standard that is pleasing to Him, so a man who desires to Serve God, will know what is or is not a pleasing service UNTO God, whom, will bless with rewards for a pleasing service.

Part of serving God has to do with gained ability to serve Him via His Oracles; His Word.
Babes are the primary students.
The Wise are the primary teachers.

The pleasing UNTO God is via His Word according to His Principles of Christ's doctrine.

Morals, are subjective; sort of like doing the wrong thing, for what some may consider the right reason.
That which is WRONG never plays into Gods Word.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

"Moral Law" is a theological construct created by theologians to place believers in Jesus Christ under a yoke of bondage. Its contents vary widely according to theological schools. Unlike the Law, the "Moral Law" is nowhere enunciated as a set of defined commandments. Rather, it is a loose set of precepts and commandments gathered from various verses sprinkled in the New Testament.

bbbbbb,

1. You disagree with opinions but you haven’t prove anything by scripture.
You haven’t proved your scriptural position and haven’t disproved my scriptural position. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Agree about supposed "moral law"; or "moral code".

Scripture speaks of the Oracles of God; ie:
His Word, as the primary factor in the Principles set forth in Christ's Doctrine.

Heb 5 ~ Heb 6

Freewill is primary to a mans election to choose.

God sets a standard that is pleasing to Him, so a man who desires to Serve God, will know what is or is not a pleasing service UNTO God, whom, will bless with rewards for a pleasing service.

Part of serving God has to do with gained ability to serve Him via His Oracles; His Word.
Babes are the primary students.
The Wise are the primary teachers.

The pleasing UNTO God is via His Word according to His Principles of Christ's doctrine.

Morals, are subjective; sort of like doing the wrong thing, for what some may consider the right reason.
That which is WRONG never plays into Gods Word.

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1. Romans 3:1-2 was talking about the Jewish nation were given the oracles of God which was the Old Covenant that God gave to Moses not Christ who was the Savior of the world for the New Covenant. Hebrews 5-6

2. What scripture says morals are subjective by your definition of doing the wrong thing for the right reason?
Jerry Kelso

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1. Romans 3:1-2 was talking about the Jewish nation were given the oracles of God which was the Old Covenant that God gave to Moses not Christ who was the Savior of the world for the New Covenant. Hebrews 5-6

2. What scripture says morals are subjective by your definition of doing the wrong thing for the right reason?
Jerry Kelso

The word "morals" is not in scripture, or defined in scripture.

I didn't define morals, I gave an example, that not all have the same conclusion.

Morals ~
Are in regard to good or bad behavior.
Are subjective because not everyone has the same conclusion of what good or bad behavior means to them.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

The word "morals" is not in scripture, or defined in scripture.

I didn't define morals, I gave an example, that not all have the same conclusion.

Morals ~
Are in regard to good or bad behavior.
Are subjective because not everyone has the same conclusion of what good or bad behavior means to them.

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1 The word morals doesn’t have to be in the Bible.

2. Morals; good or bad?
Virtuous in marriage is a good moral and adultery is a bad moral.

3. Conclusionsre definitive; good or bad. The Ten Commandments are moral and those who break them have committed a sin. Jerry Kelso

 

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bbbbbb,

1. You disagree with opinions but you haven’t prove anything by scripture.
You haven’t proved your scriptural position and haven’t disproved my scriptural position. Jerry Kelso

It is impossible to conclusively prove anything using an argument from silence. It is quite impossible to prove that anything called the "Moral Law" is in the Bible because it is not. You have yet to elucidate any biblical passages which clearly enunciate this thing you call the "Moral Law".

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1 The word morals doesn’t have to be in the Bible.

2. Morals; good or bad?
Virtuous in marriage is a good moral and adultery is a bad moral.

3. Conclusionsre definitive; good or bad. The Ten Commandments are moral and those who break them have committed a sin. Jerry Kelso

I would agree with Jesus; the Big picture is about Love.

Matt 22

37: JESUS SAID unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all the heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind

38: This the first and great commandment.

39: And the second is like unto it,
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

40: On these TWO commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

It is impossible to conclusively prove anything using an argument from silence. It is quite impossible to prove that anything called the "Moral Law" is in the Bible because it is not. You have yet to elucidate any biblical passages which clearly enunciate this thing you call the "Moral Law".

bbbbbb,

1. It is not silent and you cannot prove it scripturally.
We are not talking about the words moral law for they are not there. But the morals are there such as in the 10 Commandments and all throughout the Mosaic law which Jesus taught and before the law and in the NC.

2. What you’ve posted sounds like those against Moral Government and they have the same basis.
If this is correct then I understand most likely why you believe what you say is true.
The Old Covenant was abolished because of weaknesses it had, such as the law couldn’t save a person to the uttermost Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 10:22, 40,
The moral laws are still in the NC by the actual acts that qualify moral law, whether good or bad such as being virtuous or committing adultery etc.

3. I agree that we are not to be subdued by the law of Moses, such as the 10 Commandments.
But you believe that you can sin which is a transgression of the law and the NC.
John said this and also all unrighteousness was sin 1 John 5:16 and John was a NC believer. He was not referring to the Old Covenant.

4. If like the basis for opponents of Moral Government your basis is the same principle of being subdued by OC, but the Law was Holy and Good and it was the weakness of the law of Moses that made them live to the frailty of man and his frailty as well as self effort. Read Romans 7.

5. If you sin you are most likely in one way or the other transgressing a moral law.
If you hate your brother you are worse than a murderer.
You are going to have go deeper and farther than what you have stated about elucidating and enunciating about moral law. Give scriptural examples of some kind to prove your point. Jerry Kelso

 

[SBC]

It is impossible to conclusively prove anything using an argument from silence. It is quite impossible to prove that anything called the "Moral Law" is in the Bible because it is not. You have yet to elucidate any biblical passages which clearly enunciate this thing you call the "Moral Law".

"Moral Law", is a man made concept, about ethics, and right living.

Laws do not prevent men from acting.

Men instinctively know right and wrong.
Men instinctively want to do easy over hard.

It is easy to lie, hard to tell a truth that hurts.
It is easy to take, hard to earn.
It is easy to cheat, men are weak.

Men can talk about Moral Law, few can adhere to it.

Righteous, per Scripture is about Love.

Love is doing what is best, regardless of the consequences.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[bbbbbbb]

"Moral Law", is a man made concept, about ethics, and right living.

Laws do not prevent men from acting.

Men instinctively know right and wrong.
Men instinctively want to do easy over hard.

It is easy to lie, hard to tell a truth that hurts.
It is easy to take, hard to earn.
It is easy to cheat, men are weak.

Men can talk about Moral Law, few can adhere to it.

Righteous, per Scripture is about Love.

Love is doing what is best, regardless of the consequences.

God Bless,
SBC

The problem, of course, is that morality is not universally consistent across all cultures. If it were, there would not be an ISIS or radical Islam. Much of Hinduism is amazingly immoral by Western standards. Even Paul, in Romans 1, confessed the gross immorality of humanity. He then went on to define the Law and its function. He never presented the Law as the means of achieving morality, nor did he ever assume that humanity was anything other than lawless.

Most Muslims sincerely believe that they "instinctively know right and wrong" and that includes such things as polygamy and sequestering of women. They are deeply offended by the immorality of Western culture.

So, is our goal to make people moral or do we merely sit back and let them instinctively figure it out on their own?

 

[SBC]

The problem, of course, is that morality is not universally consistent across all cultures. If it were, there would not be an ISIS or radical Islam. Much of Hinduism is amazingly immoral by Western standards. Even Paul, in Romans 1, confessed the gross immorality of humanity. He then went on to define the Law and its function. He never presented the Law as the means of achieving morality, nor did he ever assume that humanity was anything other than lawless.

Most Muslims sincerely believe that they "instinctively know right and wrong" and that includes such things as polygamy and sequestering of women. They are deeply offended by the immorality of Western culture.

So, is our goal to make people moral or do we merely sit back and let them instinctively figure it out on their own?

Moral Law is man-made.
I said it was subjective.

You pointed out some reasoning for it's subjectiveness.

IOW - ALL men do not think and believe alike.
What one believes is RIGHT another may believe it is WRONG.

Religion and Culture plays a big part in what men of the World consider right and wrong.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[bbbbbbb]

Moral Law is man-made.
I said it was subjective.

You pointed out some reasoning for it's subjectiveness.

IOW - ALL men do not think and believe alike.
What one believes is RIGHT another may believe it is WRONG.

Religion and Culture plays a big part in what men of the World consider right and wrong.

God Bless,
SBC

However, it was you who posted -

Men instinctively know right and wrong.

 

[SBC]

However, it was you who posted -

Men instinctively know right and wrong.

Correct.
When?
When did Adam know right from wrong?
As soon as he ate.
It was then, he discovered the shame of his nakedness and tried to cover himself.

Instinct, can before or after doing what is right or wrong.

Culture can teach, this is right, and this is wrong. And not all men have the same taught cultures.

Scripture teaches a principled doctrine of Jesus Christ.
Scripture also teaches, if you do this, you shall receive rewards, if you do not this, you will not receive rewards.

Point being, MEN like to label everything.
Scripture tells us HOW and in WHAT manner we can serve the Lord. He doesn't call it a moral law. But in fact we are told, not everyone is called to serve the Lord in the same manner.

Men like to criticize, what they can SEE.
The Lord knows what MEN can not SEE.

Scripture says you shall know men by their fruits. Also, Scriptures says ONLY the man and God know the mans heart.

So again, man can only know, a man, BY what he does.
One man can routinely be SEEN, in Church, hearing the Word, participating in Church activities, even Pastoring a Church.....
....Doing all the Principled teachings of Christ;
....and in secret, out of view, do the opposite.

Another man, can routinely be SEEN, never in Church, never hearing the Word, never participating in Church activities....
....Never SEEN doing the principled teachings of Christ...
....And in secret, out of view, continuously helping neighbors, strangers, reading the Word of God, praising God.

Which one according to MANS "moral code", is moral, and which is not?
Again, which is according to God, serving God according to how God purposed for that man?

God sees everything; men do not.
God rewards good behavior; men criticize everything.

I personally prefer, Gods WAY, over mans WAY.

God Bless,
SBC