One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

[sovereigngrace]

Augustine was not sure. How can he teach a certain doctrine?

All the rest claim AFTER the 6 days. None claimed the Millennium was during the 6 Days. If the 7th is a Millennium, how can it not be viewed as the same as the other 6 Days? Not a single one declared there cannot be a thousand years before everlasting began. Not a one of them declared we will continue to live in the 6th Day, and we will call it a spiritual indefinite Millennium.

For one, they were wrong that 6000 years had already passed. Only 4000 years had passed. We can read and interpret the same OT, the scholarly Jews of the first century could. The OT did not magically change in the last 1900 years to make history shorter, or give us another 2k, making it now 8k. It was 4000 then, and almost 6000 now.

And there were other nations who gave even more time to creation, adding 10's of thousands of years. Only the Hebrews were conservative in their times. They relied on Exodus 20, for that interpretation.

None of them were denying a future 1000 years. The only reason you all today think they were amil is because the Millennium never happened. You are basing their thought on an unknown future to them.

When you can produce text where they declare there is no coming Millennium, you may get your point. When they declare they were living in the Millennium and Christ had returned after 6 Days, then you can declare the Millennium null and void. Not a single one claimed the Cross was the start of the Day of rest, where all of mankind's evils were over.

Why are you using Augustine's dispensationalism, to discredit dispensationalism? Augustine did not even go by literal Day equals an age. That is why they had the wrong amount. Since Augustine was in error, and you claim an amil, is that because of the error or not?

There is no hard evidence here - just mere opinion and speculation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Then there's the bruise on Jesus' heel. Jesus fulfilled Scripture, but there is no mention of a physical bruise caused by a physical serpent.

So it must have been a spiritual bruise caused by a spiritual serpent.

As Genesis 3:15 describes.

Oh Jesus fulfilled prophecy? Satan is in the lake of fire now? We're on the new earth and Jesus returned already? News to me.
Full preterist views are not allowed on this subforum.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How is one able to conclude that from just that little bit, that he never anticipated an earthly millennial kingdom after the 6000 years has been expired? What we need to get on the same page about, what is being meant by an earthly millennial kingdom? There will only be one kingdom remaining in the end, that being the everlasting kingdom. And since I see that kingdom literally coming to earth as of the 2nd coming, thus to me it is then meaning this same "heavenly kingdom" meant, and that if there are a thousand years after the 2nd coming, it would simply be the first 1000 years of this same heavenly kingdom meant.






You're not claiming this one as an Amil, are you? Why did you even include this one?

I pretty much read through this post now. Some of what you posted, though some of them believed in 6000 years of earth history, while some of them also apparently believed in creation days involving a thousand years each, which is something I don't agree with, it does appear that a lot of them were not anticipating another thousand years following the 2nd coming. What I don't see though, unless I missed it, which is possible, but was present in Barnabas' writings, is the mention of an eighth day. We have to keep in mind that Barnabas mentioned 8 days not 7 days.

Your position here is built upon silence. You have zero references to some so-called future millennium. All of these ECFs believed in a climactic return of Christ. The burden of proof is with Premil, and alas they have nothing to support their theory. Quotes from the leaders of the Amil movement at that time (like Barnabas, Tyconius, Jerome and Augustine) nail the lie that the ‘6 days = 6,000 years theory’ was an exclusive Chiliast opinion. None of these men recognized the Premil theory.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How is one able to conclude that from just that little bit, that he never anticipated an earthly millennial kingdom after the 6000 years has been expired? What we need to get on the same page about, what is being meant by an earthly millennial kingdom? There will only be one kingdom remaining in the end, that being the everlasting kingdom. And since I see that kingdom literally coming to earth as of the 2nd coming, thus to me it is then meaning this same "heavenly kingdom" meant, and that if there are a thousand years after the 2nd coming, it would simply be the first 1000 years of this same heavenly kingdom meant.






You're not claiming this one as an Amil, are you? Why did you even include this one?

I pretty much read through this post now. Some of what you posted, though some of them believed in 6000 years of earth history, while some of them also apparently believed in creation days involving a thousand years each, which is something I don't agree with, it does appear that a lot of them were not anticipating another thousand years following the 2nd coming. What I don't see though, unless I missed it, which is possible, but was present in Barnabas' writings, is the mention of an eighth day. We have to keep in mind that Barnabas mentioned 8 days not 7 days.

Hilarianus was not an Amil. Barnabas, Cyprian, Aphrahat, Hilary, Tyconius, Jerome, Sulpicius Severus and Augustine were. I removed his quote to remove any ambiguity.

 

[Timtofly]

And guess what, it doesn't necessarily always require years of studying something in order to put 2 and 2 together. BTW, I haven't gotten around to reading the book you just pasted, because it may as well be an entire book, as lengthy as it was. I only got this far thus far, what I quoted from your post above.

Let's look at what Justin Martyr concluded since it is apparently some of the same as Barnabas concluded.
---------------------------

Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree [of life ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.' Luke 20:35f.
CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 69-88 (Justin Martyr)
------------------------------

that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem----meaning after the 2nd coming--day 7 to him.

and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place---meaning to him the great white throne judgment after the millennium.

'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.' Luke 20:35f---meaning to him the beginning of a new age, the same 8th day Barnabas referred to, obviously.

Clearly, both Barnabas and Justin held some of the same views, in regards to these 8 days in question. If Justin concluded Luke 20:35f was meaning after the great white throne judgment, then so did Barnabas conclude the same thing.


What is not clear about their views, since it seems to be absent from their writings, is how they viewed satan's little season after the millennium. They couldn't possibly have had satan cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming, then a thousand years after that, followed by the great white throne judgment, since this ignores satan's little season altogether. Since these were intelligent men, there is no way they could have overlooked, that after the thousand years satan is loosed for a little season, then cast into the LOF. They would have had to have had zero reading compreshension if they overlooked those facts. Though it might appear from some of their writings that they have satan being cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming, maybe they were just telescoping instead, or whatever else might explain it if that doesn't, which it might not.

Their writings were not necessarily about Satan nor the tribulation at all. They were not conflating the two events. They were approaching the Millennium based solely on Exodus 20, and the 4th Commandment. They were comparing Exodus 20 to Revelation 20, whether or not Revelation had been broken up into chapters.

 

[jgr]

Oh Jesus fulfilled prophecy? Satan is in the lake of fire now? We're on the new earth and Jesus returned already? News to me.
Full preterist views are not allowed on this subforum.

Oh Jesus did not fulfill prophecy? Luke 18:31;24:25-27,44-45
News to Him.
Delusionism and denialism are the stuff of fools, as you see He said.
Fools are still allowed on this subforum.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hilarianus was not an Amil. Barnabas, Cyprian, Aphrahat, Hilary, Tyconius, Jerome, Sulpicius Severus and Augustine were. I removed his quote to remove any ambiguity.

I think it may have been Augustine that was the Amillennialist that basically thought Jesus was returning around 1000AD.

 

[Jamdoc]

Oh Jesus did not fulfill prophecy? Luke 18:31;24:25-27,44-45
News to Him.
Delusionism and denialism are the stuff of fools, as you see He said.
Fools are still allowed on this subforum.

Fulfilled 1st coming prophecies, but not second coming prophecies.

 

[jgr]

Fulfilled 1st coming prophecies, but not second coming prophecies.

Which coming do you think Genesis 3:15 is about?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think it may have been Augustine that was the Amillennialist that basically thought Jesus was returning around 1000AD.

Have you hard evidence of this?

 

[Jamdoc]

Have you hard evidence of this?

The Millennial Kingdom

 

[Jamdoc]

Which coming do you think Genesis 3:15 is about?

Second

I strongly
and I mean strongly
disagree with the Amillennialist position that Satan is currently bound when Peter wrote long after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, that Satan prowled around like a roaring lion. That sounds like a lot of freedom and ability to deceive the world. (1 Peter 5:8), and Paul called him the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)

are Paul and Peter wrong?
cause I'd sure be disappointed if this is the best Jesus can do to restrain him.

not to mention the creation of Islam is the biggest, most consequential subversion of the truth by Satan that the world has ever seen and happened within the first Millennium after Christ ascended.
I can't express how strongly I feel both ammillennialists and post millennialists are wrong on this issue.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Millennial Kingdom

This is typical Premil evidence. Just quote someone who is quoting someone who is quoting someone. That is not hard evidence. That is opinions. Do you have exact quotes?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Second

I strongly
and I mean strongly
disagree with the Amillennialist position that Satan is currently bound when Peter wrote long after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, that Satan prowled around like a roaring lion. That sounds like a lot of freedom and ability to deceive the world. (1 Peter 5:8), and Paul called him the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)

are Paul and Peter wrong?
cause I'd sure be disappointed if this is the best Jesus can do to restrain him.

not to mention the creation of Islam is the biggest, most consequential subversion of the truth by Satan that the world has ever seen and happened within the first Millennium after Christ ascended.
I can't express how strongly I feel both ammillennialists and post millennialists are wrong on this issue.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

 

[Timtofly]

Once again you fail to furnish us with one single quote from Barnabas describing a future millennium. That is because it does not exist. He was an Amil. The fact you have had to run to Justin Martyr for support demonstrates your lack of evidence.

One of the most thorough researches on the Epistle of Barnabas comes from Premillenarian historian D. H. Kromminga in his book Millennium in the Church. In it he gives lengthy consideration to the eschatological position of Barnabas. Kromminga emphatically concludes that he was not a Chiliast but was in fact an Amillennialist. He acknowledges: "Now, it would seem, that this argumentation would land Barnabas right in the lap of the millennium as a final period of this world’s history. He is perfectly aware of this and does not at all shun this consequence. However, he explains the statement that God rested on the seventh day, as follows: “this meaneth, when His Son, coming, shall destroy the time (of the wicked man) and judge the ungodly and change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day.” And the fact should not escape our attention, that in this chapter Barnabas links the notion of the rest with both the seventh and the eighth day."

He continues: "He seems to be of the opinion that there will be a seventh world period all right, but that period will be identical with the perfection of the eternal state. There can be no doubt about the identity of his seventh and his eighth day. The day of rest that is coming is one and the same day, viewed from 2 different aspects. From the viewpoint of continuity the great world–sabbath is a seventh day; but from the viewpoint of discontinuity it is the eighth, beyond and outside the present world–week. The future state is the last reckoning from creation; it is new, because of sin and redemption. This is the simplest meaning which I can discover in Barnabas’s words; but this is plain and pure Amillennialism."

Whilst Barnabas was not a Chiliast you can easily see how his 6 day/6,000 years theory opened up the door to the conclusion that the 7th day will also be 1,000 years long. Even though most of the early writers considered the 7th day as eternal, the whole basis of the idea of a millennial week was fraught will many factual discrepancies, human speculations and theological contradictions. A study of the early fathers will see that this faulty concept inevitably led to some embracing Chiliasm.

Stanley J. Grenz writes in The Millennial Maze: “The creation-day world-age theory that Justin and others employed did not necessarily lead to the materially oriented premillennialism of Irenaeus. This is exemplified by a work that probably predates the early apologist … the Epistle of Barnabas.”

Alan Patrick Boyd says in his master’s thesis presented to Dallas Theological Seminary (1977) “A Dispensational Premillennial Analysis of the Eschatology of the Post-Apostolic Fathers” and particularly his study of the Epistle of Barnabas: “In the light of the argument of the passage, can one conclude that the author (Barnabas) was a premillennarian? Probably not, for the following reasons. First of all, one must realize that a belief in six millennia of world history in no way obligates one to posit a seventh millennium in world history. In other words, the most modern scholarship can do is to assume that the Seventh Day, in the writer's thought, is a millennium since there is no prima facie evidence for it. One must not assume the part (six millennia) for the whole (seven millennia). Secondly, the concept of ‘rest from creation’ is given within the chronological framework of the second advent (15.5) and the beginning of the Eighth Day (15.8)” (p. 104, 105)

He adds: “Therefore, the Eighth Day can be said to begin at the Second Advent. In other words, the Seventh Day is eschatologically the beginning of the Eighth Day. Therefore, there is no interval (millennial or otherwise) between the Seventh and Eighth Days” (p. 105).

He continues: “The whole point of the chapter is that the Eighth Day is the acceptable Sabbath. In the light of this, the seventh Day plays no appreciable role. If the Seventh Day were a millennium that millennium is insignificant” (p. 105).

He explains: “In the light of this, it seems best to understand the Eighth Day as eternity, and since the Seventh Day is synonymous with the Eighth, the Seventh Day would also be eternity” (p. 105, 106).

He states: “In the light of the unity of the Seventh and Eighth Days, if a millennium were to exist, it would only be the threshold to, but within, eternity. It would be no interval between the present age and the eternal state (BOYD'S FOOTNOTE- this seems to be similar to Justin Martyr’s thought)” (p. 106).

He says: “In conclusion then, it seems best to conclude that Barnabas was not a premillennarian. The existence of an eschatological Millennium in the author’s thought can only be an assumption of modern scholarship” (p. 106).

He concludes: “…the sanctification of the Seventh Day, is not presently being fulfilled, but will be fulfilled when: 1) Christians are justified; 2) Christians are resurrected and rule the earth, 3) there is no more sin; 4) there is a new universe; 5) God causes everything to rest; and 6) God makes the beginning of the Eighth Day, i. e. – when God begins another world” (pp. 103-104).

All this means is that most expect a 7th Millennium that we all may or may not endure through. This would be more post than amil. It still claims the Second Coming starts the 7th Millennium. No one is stating for a fact the second coming is at the end of eternity.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hello Sov

You are going to have to submit some valid evidence in order to rebut what Amils are writing. So afar you haven't done that. All i see is you venting against Amil. Please tone your language down it is not advancing anything.

You did not answer any of the question or points put to ....Instead you continue to push amill doctrine that twist the meaning of the Text ...... you can not pick one verse and take it out of context to prove a point ...well obviously you can.... amills do it all the time........ but it does not prove you as correct thinking. All amills do is continually play with translations if something disagrees with you you spiritualize it away or say the translation is in error.

So let us look at the verses in context shall we

Barnabas 4:3
The last offence is at hand, concerning which the scripture speaketh,
as Enoch saith. For to this end the Master hath cut the seasons and
the days short, that His beloved might hasten and come to His
inheritance. Is at hand means soon to take place but has not yet taken place So the inheritance is not there yet

Barnabas 4:4
And the prophet also speaketh on this wise; Ten reigns shall reign
upon the earth, and after them shall arise another king, who shall
bring low three of the kings under one. This is all about Daniel 7: which he clearly is saying has not yet been fulfilled.

Barnabas 4:5
In like manner Daniel speaketh concerning the same; And I saw the
forth beast to be wicked and strong and more intractable than all
the beasts of the earth, and how there arose from him ten horns,
and from these a little horn and excrescence, and how that it
abased under one three of the great horns. This is all about Daniel 7: which he clearly is saying has not yet been fulfilled.

I asked you about the Inheritance which he says is not there yet and asked you this question which you did not answer. So please allow me to print it larger for you... as I assume you just missed it

So now are you telling me that you believe Jesus has returned with the Angels and separated the sheep and goats??????????????????

You obviously did not read the whole post or maybe you just ignored what does not fit the doctrine. Barbanas clearly talks about Daniel as being unfulfilled. Just because you and other amills ignore the evidence does not make it so. If I say the world is flat and others agree does not make the world flat.

Barnabas 1:7
For the Lord made known to us by His prophets things past and present, giving us likewise the firstfruits of the taste of things future.

You do understand what Future means ....well just in case allow me

fu·ture /ˈfyo͞oCHər/
noun

1. 
   
   
   • 1.
     the time or a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing; time regarded as still to come.

The amill doctrine is wrong and was not taught by Barnabas nor any other pre 150 Church Father

 

[Jamdoc]

This is typical Premil evidence. Just quote someone who is quoting someone who is quoting someone. That is not hard evidence. That is opinions. Do you have exact quotes?

when I said "I think" it's because I haven't really delved into it much, it's just things I read here and there and do not look much into.
I don't get involved with delusional interpretations born out of disbelief very much.
sorry the date setter in 2000 disappointed you so badly that you jumped the shark.

 

[Jamdoc]

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

"Deceive the nations no more"

man is the god of preterism and amillennialism, the god of hyperbole an utter disappointment.
I can't even believe the threats of eternal damnation or the promises of eternal life from that god.
because those threats and promises are probably hyperbole too if you were right
good thing I believe you're wrong.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Is it really your position that Jesus came in his Glory with the Angels and that is why the Kingdom is already here.

That is not my position. Jesus has not come yet. When he does come a second time
We inherit what was prepared from the foundation of the world ( Eden) not a millennium.
The Goat inherit the LOF not a millennium.


[ QuOte JTF / ]

Now Peter

[2] that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles. ................................[7] But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. [8]But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [9] The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. [10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

Once again not happened still to come there are told to remember the words of the prophets this is at about 64AD s forget the resurrection as being the beginning of the Kingdom.
[ END QUOTE ]



Correct , this happens at his coming. Once again the ungodly suffer not only the Judgment but also their destruction in the LOF.

Same goes for Paul.
The Lord appears in flaming fire taking vengeance out on those who have rejected him.
They are eternally separated from his coming presence ON THE SAME DAY we are glorified in him,,,,no millennium in sight here either.

2Thess 1
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.



[ QUOTE JTF /]
You can not ignore Jesus plain words in favour of a twisted view of Paul's words. The Kingdom Comes when the sheep and goats are divided. AND NOT A SECOND EARLIER regardless of how you wish to change it to fit your doctrine of men. [ END QUOTE/]



I clearly havent ignored anything. When Jesus comes again to separate the sheep and goats we will then inherit the kingdom , and the ungodly will inherit the LOF.

 

[sovereigngrace]

All this means is that most expect a 7th Millennium that we all may or may not endure through. This woul be more post than amil. Ot atill claims the Second Coming starts the 7th Millennium. No one is stating for a fact the second coming is at the end of eternity.

Most ECFs who believed in the ‘the 6 days = 6,000 years theory’ believed the 7th day was eternal - without morning or evening. They likened it to the 7 days of creation, the 7th of which was not said to have a finish.