One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

[Spiritual Jew]

The day that Christ returns is the beginning of the day of the Lord, that is clear in all the "sun and moon darkening" scripture in Amos, Joel, Isaiah, etc. That's the 6th seal.

So, you're just going to ignore that Peter relates the day of the Lord referenced in Joel 2:28-32 to the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:16-21? I see.

John wrote that 1900+ years ago, saying it was the last hour.
Surely you understand that as a figure of speech
yet you cannot see "the day of the Lord" as a figure of speech.

How does your interpretation of the day of the Lord agree with what is taught in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 about the day of the Lord? That's what you have yet to show. Can you do that?

 

[Jamdoc]

So, you're just going to ignore that Peter relates the day of the Lord referenced in Joel 2:28-32 to the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:16-21? I see.

Foreshadow fulfillment, not the ultimate fulfillment.

It's like how people equate Daniel 8 to Alexander the Great, cause it was a big deal, but it didn't happen exactly as predicted in scripture, and the little horn didn't come out of it, and it wasn't the last indignation.
So a type fulfillment, not the ultimate fulfillment.

How does your interpretation of the day of the Lord agree with what is taught in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 about the day of the Lord? That's what you have yet to show. Can you do that?

1 Thessalonians 4 happens at the 6th seal, but I understand the "sudden destruction" as not an instantaneous nuke, but rather the events of the trumpets and bowls.
and 2 Peter 3 is after Satan's little season at the end of the Millennium.

again
Peter and Paul were inspired
John actually witnessed it happen.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does he indicate that?

Where are you getting that from? Don't just make claims without backing them up. Show the scripture that you are basing this claim on.

Did I not acknowledge that sin will no longer be present after Christ returns? Of course I acknowledge that. So, who are you directing your question towards?

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Peter points out things are dissolved, not that heaven and earth have passed. The Day of God, comes after the Day of the Lord. Jesus Christ reigns until the end of the earthly kingdom.

"afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

The end cometh after the Second Coming, not at the Second Coming. The verse says Christ brings those at the Second Coming, not that Christ is handing over the kingdom.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

"afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

The point is based on a resurrection, not necessarily a time of judgment. Paul is pointing out the process of giving God souls at three different points in time, not just 2.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,"

The Cross was the firstfruits, because Christ brings the firstfruits with Him at the Second Coming. The Second Coming is the second harvest. Then comes the end after the kingdom is handed to God. We have had 1991 years of Christ with the firstfruits, then Christ comes to earth as Prince, then the end comes 1000 years later, when the kingdom on earth is handed back to God.

The point is what was accomplished at each step. The physical resurrection was completed at the Cross. No need to go back to the physical aspect of Redemption. The Second Coming is the end of the spiritual aspect of life. The Spiritual kingdom is complete, and no need to go back to the spiritual aspect of Redemption. Now at the Second Coming we have a resurrection that is physical, and Jesus Christ will fulfill all the physical aspects of the iron rule.


We have not been under the iron rule, but under grace and accepting God by faith. The Millennium is not about faith or even the spiritual aspect of Redemption, because that all has been settled in the church. But Daniel 9, has not been lived out in reality on earth.

The Second Coming harvest also produces firstfruits, not for the church, but for the resurrection of Revelation 20:4. The Millennium is for these firstfruits, just like the church and the last 1991 years has been for the firstfruits of the first coming in the first century.

The OT saints have not been ever present on earth for the last 1991 years. In like manner the church will not be present on earth during the Millennium. Not, that they will not be reigning over the earth, not just on the earth. Have those in Paradise presided over the last 1991 years?

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

 

[Timtofly]

I agree but I also think there are several other problems.
The lack of recognizing Islam for what it is, Satanic Deception, is something that also needs to be considered, because Islam I believe is very much a part of the end times struggle.

Islam teaches Jesus too, they call him Isa, and they teach he did the same miracles, was born of a virgin, and is the Messiah. They do not however teach that he is the son of God, or that he died to save you from your sins. They teach a strict works based salvation, in opposition to the gospel. They also teach that Isa went to heaven and will return one day, believing that he will come down from heaven and appear in Damascus, profess Islam, and start persecuting Jews and Christians.
The location is interesting considering Daniel 8, which no, is not Alexander the Great although that was a foreshadowing.
Daniel 8 is about the End Times, Gabriel says it multiple times, that it's about the final indignation. When Yavan (Northwestern Turkey, think Istanbul, the seat of any true Caliphate) invades, the first king (Alexander was not even the first King Alexander of Macedonia, he was Alexander III) is killed, and the empire (think Ottoman Empire returned) is divided into 4 regions.
The little horn, the antichrist, comes from the southern kingdom of this divided empire, which would contain Syria and Damascus. Read Daniel 8 and ignore the commentary about it being Alexander, read it understanding that it says the Antichrist will come out of one of the divisions of Yavan. I know, you also have a predisposition that it's going to be European focused, now Europe may be representing Mystery Babylon, the world system that at first rides the beast, and then is destroyed by the beast.
So Islam is directly looking for the antichrist, who they believe is Jesus Christ returned.

The Antichrist is the Islamic Messiah, and Satan has groomed that religion to help him rise to power and support him for 1400 years.
It is the fastest growing religion in the world
and it's colors are white, red, black, and green.
where else have you seen those colors?

Daniel 8 is about the 3rd beast empire, Greece.

Zechariah is about today. Turkey has been trying to invade Syria for about 10 years. Syria has been decimated by civil war, with many nations fighting proxy wars during that same time. The only reason why war has not followed prophecy exactly is because hundreds if not thousands of Christians there and around the earth have been praying and remaining faithful to God. We know God changes prophecy when humans repent and submit to God’s will with the Holy Spirit. Nineveh is a prime example. Where did God give the OT prophets a prophecy claiming Nineveh would repent and be spared?

 

[Jamdoc]

Daniel 8 is about the 3rd beast empire, Greece.

Common misconception.

Let's break it down

Daniel 8:8-12

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

First off, I've heard Alexander's empire didn't actually divide into exactly 4 parts. But more importantly, the Antichrist didn't arise as a result of this dividing when in Daniel 8 it does. There was a type fulfillment in Antiochus Epiphanes, but we'll get around to why that isn't the ultimate fulfillment next

Daniel 8:16-19

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

So Gabriel mentions this is an end times vision. The end times didn't even begin until Pentecost, so Alexander the Great wasn't it. Specifically, this is about the last end of the indignation, that is, the last 3.5 years before Armageddon, during the wrath of God.

Daniel 8:20-21

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Alexander the Great was not the first king of Macedonia, he was not even the first king named Alexander of Macedonia. He was Alexander III. This cannot be Alexander therefore, but will rather be the first King of a new empire or revived empire.
If Erdogan were to restore the Ottoman Empire, he'd be the first Caliph (Ottoman King) of his name, and the first king of that revived Empire. Not saying he will, but it would fit, and he does have fantasies of restoring the Ottoman Caliphate beginning in 2023 after the Treaty of of Lausanne "expires" in his eyes.

Daniel 8:22-25

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Finally again, the antichrist arises out of it, and that was not during the classical Alexandrian Empire, the reference that this antichrist will stand against Jesus and lose is a reference to Armageddon. So this is THE Antichrist.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1 Thessalonians 4 happens at the 6th seal, but I understand the "sudden destruction" as not an instantaneous nuke, but rather the events of the trumpets and bowls.

Paul said that the day of the Lord would come as a thief in the night and bring "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". That means he said it will come suddenly and unexpectedly just as Peter taught that it would. The destruction will come by fire on the entire earth and that's why "they shall not escape". Your version of the day of the Lord does not come as a thief in the night and does not bring sudden and unexpected global destruction. Your interpretation of the day of the Lord simply does not match what Peter and Paul taught about it. It's that simple.

and 2 Peter 3 is after Satan's little season at the end of the Millennium.

That's complete nonsense. 2 Peter 3 is about things that will happen at the second coming of Christ. That is established early on in 2 Peter 3:3-4 where Peter talks about scoffers mocking His coming and asking "where is the promise of His coming"? Then he said the Lord is not being slack regarding His second coming and then explained that He will come as a thief in the night, just as Jesus Himself said He would.

Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:13 that it is in accordance with Christ's second coming that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth. That makes no sense if the new heavens and new earth aren't ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming.

 

[keras]

2 Peter 3 is about things that will happen at the second coming of Christ.

2 Peter 3 is a sequence of events.
2 Peter 3:1-12 refers to the Sixth Seal Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
2 Peter 3:13 is the NH, NE, that comes after the Millennium.
Trying to fit these things into the glorious Return, leads to confusion.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

2 Peter 3 is a sequence of events.
2 Peter 3:1-12 refers to the Sixth Seal Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
2 Peter 3:13 is the NH, NE, that comes after the Millennium.
Trying to fit these things into the glorious Return, leads to confusion.

You add confusion to that straightforward text. It clearly indicates that the heavens and earth will be burned up at His return. No one can survive that which is why Paul said of the same event that it would be "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). You say some mortals will escape and survive. Peter and Paul say otherwise.

 

[keras]

You add confusion to that straightforward text. It clearly indicates that the heavens and earth will be burned up at His return.

2 Peter 3 does not even mention the Return.
He prophesies about the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath and then, much later the NH, NE.

I have shown you the 3 proof texts about the glorious Return. The only destruction Jesus does at that time, is of the attacking armies at Armageddon. And that is not by fire.

Your idea of total destruction when Jesus returns, is not Biblical or logical.

 

[jeffweedaman]

2 Peter 3 does not even mention the Return.
He prophesies about the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath and then, much later the NH, NE.

I have shown you the 3 proof texts about the glorious Return. The only destruction Jesus does at that time, is of the attacking armies at Armageddon. And that is not by fire.

Your idea of total destruction when Jesus returns, is not Biblical or logical.

Your idea of total destruction when Jesus returns is not the Lords teaching.
Jesus taught that his return would be like Noahs day, executing God's righteous judgment where only the righteous survive.
You confuse this plain simple truth taught to us by Jesus own word and you make him look foolish.

 

[keras]

Your idea of total destruction when Jesus returns is not the Lords teaching.
Jesus taught that his return would be like Noahs day, executing God's righteous judgment where only the righteous survive.
You confuse this plain simple truth taught to us by Jesus own word and you make him look foolish.

Your mistake is common; a confusion of the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, when He SENDS His judgment/ punishment of fire. Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1, + . The Sixth Seal event, carried out by Jesus as the Son of Man. He is not seen on that Day.

When Jesus Returns, on the Day of Almighty God; Revelation 16:14, it is as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
He is seen by all the world on that Day.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Your mistake is common; a confusion of the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, when He SENDS His judgment/ punishment of fire. Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1, + . The Sixth Seal event, carried out by Jesus as the Son of Man. He is not seen on that Day.

Your post lacks NT corroboration from the Lords own word. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. You fail.


[ quote Keras ]
When Jesus Returns, on the Day of Almighty God; Revelation 16:14, it is as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
He is seen by all the world on that Day.]


He is indeed, and you will do well to listen to Peter concerning this great day of God...,


10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


The day of God is the day of eternity when we are found by Jesus as being faithful at his coming.
The promise of his coming brings a NHNE...nothing more and nothing less.