One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

[Jamdoc]

There is nothing in Ephesians 6:13 that would suggest Satan has access to the 3rd heaven any more. It simply says: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

I correlate John 12, Revelation 12 and Revelation 20.

After the cross Satan lost that position. He was now defeated. Sin and death were now defeated. He had lost all grounds to condemn the elect before the face of God. Satan was banished from heaven after Christ assumed the throne. Scripture shows the casting out of Satan with the resulting / accompanying enlightenment of the nations with salvation.

and yet Ephesians 6 has rebellious wicked angels operating in heaven.

Satan cannot/will not be held physically in a physical hole somewhere on/in the earth. After all, Satan is a spirit that cannot be physically restrained. He is a spirit that roams within divine parameters doing damage to those who are it’s enough to get close to him, listen to him or act on what he says.

and yet he'll be restrained for 1000 years and be unable to influence the world. You talk about spiritual binding and claim it's now? Apparently that binding is super weak then, because if he's out like a lion prowling around he's not restrained very well.
That's some super low standards.
But I get the real reason
some date setter shook your faith really bad. Preterism and Amillennialism are knee jerk reactions.
Even Camping claimed that the rapture did in fact take place in 2011, he just called it a "spiritual rapture" instead, a flat out coping mechanism.

Ephesians 2:1-3, says he is “the prince of the power of the air.”

I believe Satan is called “the prince of the power of the air” because he is not physically earth-bound like physical human beings. Spirits do not move as humans do. Human beings are physically kept to the earth’s surface by gravity. Spirits are invisible beings that can manifest in a visible fashion but they float around the cosmos rather than walk like human beings. The title simply refers to the spiritual realm around us on earth.

We are dealing with a spirit that operates in the 1st heaven – what we see with the natural eye. The 2nd heaven is space and the 3rd heaven where God abides. He is not a physical being walking about this earth but a spirit floating about albeit restricted in what he can achieve and restricted to one place at a time.

Of course you'll twist scripture to mean whatever you want.
"What do I want the scripture to saith?" the Amillennialist's catechism.

 

[sovereigngrace]

and yet Ephesians 6 has rebellious wicked angels operating in heaven.



and yet he'll be restrained for 1000 years and be unable to influence the world. You talk about spiritual binding and claim it's now? Apparently that binding is super weak then, because if he's out like a lion prowling around he's not restrained very well.
That's some super low standards.
But I get the real reason
some date setter shook your faith really bad. Preterism and Amillennialism are knee jerk reactions.
Even Camping claimed that the rapture did in fact take place in 2011, he just called it a "spiritual rapture" instead, a flat out coping mechanism.



Of course you'll twist scripture to mean whatever you want.
"What do I want the scripture to saith?" the Amillennialist's catechism.

Amil let's the full gamut of Scripture tell us what will happen when Jesus returns. It shows a climactic event with no mortal survivors. It shows a general resurrection and judgment. What arrives is eternal perfection not the Premil debacle that ends in chaos as your supposed future millennium is overrun with billions of religious turn coats who switch their allegiance from Christ to Satan at the 1st sight of the destroyer.

 

[Jamdoc]

Amil let's the full gamut of Scripture tell us what will happen when Jesus returns. It shows a climactic event with no mortal survivors. It shows a general resurrection and judgment. What arrives is eternal perfection not the Premil debacle that ends in chaos as your supposed future millennium is overrun with billions of religious turn coats who switch their allegiance from Christ to Satan at the 1st sight of the destroyer.

Amill doesn't "let" anything.
instead of reading the scripture as it's written, and believing it, and then if it can reconcile with scripture reconciling.. you brute force scripture that does not fit to make it fit by twisting meaning.
Amill is square peg in round hole territory.

 

[keras]

Jesus speaks about his coming in the Gospels way more than 6 times and not once does he allude to an unfruitful future like a premill reign that goes bust.

You have a very wrong impression of the Millennium era.
It will be a time of peace and great prosperity. NOT like this present era!

Only for a short time AFTER Jesus has reigned for the 1000 years, will there again be rebellion against Jesus. They are all cremated. Revelation 20:7-10

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus speaks about his coming in the Gospels way more than 6 times and not once does he allude to an unfruitful future like a premill reign that goes bust.

Luke 18:8
Matthew 24:9-12

 

[jeffweedaman]

Luke 18:8
Matthew 24:9-12

Clearly you misunderstand me.
The scriptures you quoted are not post coming like your premill millennium. That is unfruitful and not our blessed hope of a NHNE.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and in a godly manner in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds.

 

[Jamdoc]

Clearly you misunderstand me.
The scriptures you quoted are not post coming like your premill millennium. That is unfruitful and not our blessed hope of a NHNE.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and in a godly manner in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds.

Okay but Jesus gives no signs of anything after the 6th seal. Not the trumpets or bowls, or Armageddon, and the GWT was only an astraction in a parable. Jesus describes events like those before the sixth seal... and the sixth seal itself.. then nothing else. It was not relevant for the audience of the gospels. All the rest is after the second coming begins. The sixth seal is the end of the great tribulation and beginning of the day of the Lord's wrath, and these are events after the sixth seal, some with time markers like 5 months long.. for those events... the audience of the Gospels wasn't even going to be there to experience those events. 6th seal.. we're out of here., not to mention they wanted to ask about His return, not everything up to the end of time.
Just up to His return.

 

[Douggg]

We don't need to. All fallen angels left their first estate (their former positions of authority in heaven), so the verse is referring to all fallen angels. It gives no indication at all that it's only referring to some fallen angels instead of all of them. It's not surprising that you would deny that since it doesn't fit your doctrine.

So when relative to man's history, were those angels placed in chains?

 

[Douggg]

There is nothing in Ephesians 6:13 that would suggest Satan has access to the 3rd heaven any more. It simply says: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

I correlate John 12, Revelation 12 and Revelation 20.

Satan and his angels were forced out of the third heaven before the time of man. Their realm presently is the second heaven, the cosmos, and earth.

In Revelation 12:7-9, they will be cast down to earth from the second heaven. Satan will then be faced with having but a short amount of time - the time/times/half time.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Satan and his angels were forced out of the third heaven before the time of man. Their realm presently is the second heaven, the cosmos, and earth.

In Revelation 12:7-9, they will be cast down to earth from the second heaven. Satan will then be faced with having but a short amount of time - the time/times/half time.

No. I refer you back to my last post.

 

[Douggg]

No. I refer you back to my last post.

Your last post is wrong. God would not let sin and iniquity reside in the third heavenly realm, until the time of the cross.

When relative to man's history were the angels in Jude 1:6 placed in chains?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

_______________________________________________________

Amil is trying to say that Satan is now in chains - rather than in the future as pre-mil declares based upon Revelation 20 for the 1000 year millennium following Jesus's Return.

Which the entire Amil position collapses on that one single point.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The fact that 1000 years in Revelation 20 is quoted six times, IS proof that it is literal.

You have to be kidding me. As I said before, the beast is mentioned over 30 times in the book of Revelation. Does that make it a literal beast? No. So, it's complete nonsense to think that the number of times a term is mentioned determines if it's literal or not.

Why else would Jesus repeat it so often?

Jesus isn't quoted in Revelation 20. What are you talking about? Did you mean John? Regardless, it's repeated because that is the period of time John was talking about. If a literal term is repeated, it remains literal. If a symbolic term is repeated, it remains symbolic. The idea that if a term is repeated it means it has to be literal is simply not true at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Satan and his angels were forced out of the third heaven before the time of man. Their realm presently is the second heaven, the cosmos, and earth.

Where are you getting this from? Where did the following take place:

Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You have a very wrong impression of the Millennium era.
It will be a time of peace and great prosperity. NOT like this present era!

Only for a short time AFTER Jesus has reigned for the 1000 years, will there again be rebellion against Jesus. They are all cremated. Revelation 20:7-10

It will be a number of people as the sand of the sea who rebel (Rev 20:8), which is a very huge number. Does that give the impression that the Millennium era, as you and Premils see it, will have been a success?

 

[Douggg]

Where are you getting this from? Where did the following take place:

Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Satan was summoned to appear before God, but he was not allowed to operate freely in heaven.

Satan and his angels realm ever since they rebelled is the second heaven and earth. Soon to be restricted to earth only.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Amill doesn't "let" anything.
instead of reading the scripture as it's written, and believing it, and then if it can reconcile with scripture reconciling.. you brute force scripture that does not fit to make it fit by twisting meaning.
Amill is square peg in round hole territory.

To you, reading the scripture as it's written means to read it literally. Clearly, not all scripture is literal. Even you know that. So, what is your point exactly?

The ironic thing here is that a lot of scripture that Amils take literally, Premils don't.

Do you read the following scripture as it's written?

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”. 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

As written, this passage is referring to scoffers mocking the idea of Christ coming again but then Peter talks about how they are ignorant about what happened in the past when the world was flooded by water (in Noah's day obviously). Then Peter points out that just as the world was destroyed by water back then, the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire in the future. And, again, he is relating that to the time of Christ's second coming. So, do you read this scripture as written? If you did, then you would acknowledge that fire will come down upon the entire earth when Jesus returns and all unbelievers will be killed. That obviously makes it impossible for there to be an earthly millennial kingdom following His return.

Again, as Peter established in 2 Peter 3:3-4, the topic he was writing about was the promise of Christ's second coming. He wrote the following about that promise.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

First, Peter makes it clear that the Lord is not being slow in keeping His promise of coming again. Why did Peter point this out? Remember, he mentioned the scoffers scoffing at the idea of Christ coming again? That is because they think He should have come by now because it's been so long. But, it hasn't been long at all from the Lord's perspective, which is what matters. Peter does not change the subject at that point. He was still talking about the return of Christ when he said "the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare". He was clearly saying that the heavens and earth will be burned up at the second coming of Christ. Do you take this scripture as written like Amils do?

Then in verse 13, Peter said in keeping with the promise of Christ's second coming, "we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells". Are you looking forward to the ushering in of a new heaven and new earth at Christ's second coming like Peter said we should be? Are you reading Peter's words as written when you read that? Amils are. It seems that Premils are instead looking forward to 1000 years or peace ending in the rebellion and destruction of a number of people as the sand of the sea.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Satan was summoned to appear before God, but he was not allowed to operate freely in heaven.

Satan and his angels realm ever since they rebelled is the second heaven and earth. Soon to be restricted to earth only.

You offer no scriptural evidence to back up your view. Why is that?

This has nothing to do with whether he was allowed to operate freely in the third heaven. He was clearly allowed to go there. The war described in Revelation 12 occurs in the third heaven. Whether Satan and his angels were allowed to operate freely there after their rebellion is irrelevant. He clearly had access to the third heaven after the time that you try to say he was kicked out permanently with no access at all.

Do you agree that the result of Satan being cast out of heaven in Revelation 12 means he can't accuse believers anymore? It talks about him previously accusing believers in heaven before he is kicked out. If you agree that him being kicked out means he can't accuse believers anymore, then do you think he can accuse believers in heaven now? Paul asked in Romans 8:33 who can make any charge/accusation against God's chosen/elect? What is your answer to that question?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What verses claim people can sin when sin is not present in the world?

I didn't say that. Once again you have asked me an irrelevant question that has nothing to do with what I said. I can only conclude that you have a major reading comprehension problem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What's conveyed by being bound is being unable to act. Not prowling around like a roaring lion or being the god of this world.
whether the chains are physical or not the idea conveyed is one where they're unable to act, the chains aren't even the main thing to get the doctrines from, it's Revelation 20:3

All we have to do is resist the devil and he has to flee from us (James 4:7). He can't just devour anyone he wants. It says he goes around looking for who he MAY devour. Can he devour you or me? No. You continue to miss the impact that Jesus Christ has had on Satan through His death, resurrection and the preaching of His gospel. You give Satan way too much credit. You make it as if he's all powerful. In Old Testament times it was kind of that way. He had his way all the time and nothing stopped him. It was to the point where Paul wrote about the Gentiles that they were "without hope and without God in the world" in those days (Eph 2:11-13). That changed after Christ came and died and brought the hope of eternal life to the world.

You can argue that Satan no longer has a seat in heaven, and that is in itself debatable as to whether the war in heaven took place in the past, or is future.

It is? Do you agree that Satan the accuser being cast out of heaven means he can't accuse believers anymore? If so, then what is your answer to Paul's question in Romans 8:33 of who can make any charge/accusation against God's chosen/elect?

Because Ephesians 6:12 states that these forces of wickedness are still in heaven, whether that includes Satan himself or not, maybe you can claim Satan is not among these powers and principalities, but other rebel angels certainly are.

No, that is not what it's saying. That verse is not talking about the third heaven where Jesus is.

Normally I do stick with the KJV, but in this case other Translations do show that "high places" are heaven
ESV translates it as "heavenly places" NIV translates it as "heavenly realm" NKJV translates it as "heavenly places", NLT translates it as "heavenly places", ASV translates it as "heavenly places" , NASB "heavenly places" you get the idea

The point is that not all rebellious angels are currently bound up in the bottomless pit held for the 5th trumpet. Some are, some act freely on earth, and others are actually given charge of earthly nations and act as powers and principalities of this current age, and have access to heaven.

Where is your evidence for this? You're just making claims without providing any scriptural support. Ephesians 6:12 does not say anything about any fallen angels having access to the third heaven.

Satan is however, for sure, free to act on Earth, hence 2 Corinthians 4:4 and 1 Peter 5:8. That is not the bottomless pit. That's not imprisonment. It could be said to be exile, if Satan no longer has access to heaven, but it is not imprisonment which Amillennialism basically relies on it being, otherwise the entire doctrine falls completely apart.

No, it is Premillennialism who sees his binding as being no different than as a physical being in a physical prison, not Amil.

But the language of Revelation 20:3 suggests imprisonment and inability to act.
Not just reduced ability to act
Inability.
This is not probation or exile or Satan walking around with an ankle bracelet tracker
It's imprisonment, no freedom at all for Satan for 1000 years.
that's not "roaring lion" status or "god of this world status" that's prisoner status

You're taking figurative language literally. You're making it as if a spirit being can be literally, physically chained up. He is figuratively bound from "deceiving the nations" which you take to mean he is unable to deceive at all while Amils take that to mean he cannot prevent the world from learning about the hope of eternal life as he did in Old Testament times.

What we have now, is at best, a Satan in exile on earth, and if that is true, then for the past 1900 years we've had "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

apparently a short time is 1/3 of human history under that doctrine, but I digress
I'm more willing to accept a Satan currently in exile because I cannot prove that Satan is included among the rebel angels in Ephesians 6:12 through scripture, but what I won't accept, is the current status of being "god of this world" and roaming around as a "roaring lion" as being in any form of imprisonment.

If that's what God considers imprisonment of an evil criminal, just setting him loose in the community to wreak havoc all over the world, that's a disappointing god. I'd be worried about the whole "eternal life" thing if God's idea of fulfillment is hyperbole.

This illustrates your problem. You seem to only look at the surface of scripture and don't try to dig any further to find the truth. You see the English words "short time" in Revelation 12:12 and just assume it's talking about a literally short amount of time.

Do you ever look at the meaning of the Greek words that our English Bibles are translated from? The Greek word translated as "short" in the phrase "short time" in Revelation 12:12 is "oligos" (Strong's G3641).

That word is used in this verse:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (oligos) are chosen.

Are their literally few people who are chosen? No, right? So, the word can be used to refer to a relatively small or limited number. And that is how it is used in Revelation 12:12. It's saying that once Satan was cast out of heaven his time was limited/made short. We know he will eventually be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10).

 

[Jamdoc]

Where is your evidence for this? You're just making claims without providing any scriptural support. Ephesians 6:12 does not say anything about any fallen angels having access to the third heaven.

Psalm 82, it's about future judgement of the powers and principalities.

rest of your post is just more square peg in round hole.