One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

[Jamdoc]

honestly though amills
how do you get around those 2 pieces of scripture I keep going back to.
2 Corinthians 4:4, and 1 Peter 5:8

Both of these verses completely refute any claim that we are in the millennial kingdom now.

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus return to gather the elect, The wedding feast, the 1,000 years of peace on Earth where men learn war no more and the Judgement of the wicked they are all on the same day ie: The day of the Lord, which when discussing the day of the Lord Peter says to God a day is a thousand years. And Peter is not the only place in scripture where we are told this. tell you what I will believe the word of God and you believe your false teachers and we can both be happy.

According to Revelation 20 though, the thousand years has a starting and ending point. And when it ends it is then satan's little season followed by the judgment of the wicked. How are you concluding the judgement of the wicked is during the millennium when it is after the millennium instead?

Let's assume the DOTL is a thousand years, which it very well may be. That should mean everything recorded in Revelation 20:1-6 is meaning during the DOTL. Where are you seeing in the text in those verses that this is when judgement of the wicked take place?

This should also mean that everything recorded in Revelation 20:7-15 is not during the DOTL, assuming the DOTL involves the entire millennium. Even if one makes the entire millennium the DOTL, one still can't make Revelation 20:11-15, the judgment of the wicked, occur during the DOTL, since that would be illogical.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi David

This should also mean that everything recorded in Revelation 20:7-15 is not during the DOTL, assuming the DOTL involves the entire millennium. Even if one makes the entire millennium the DOTL, one still can't make Revelation 20:11-15, the judgment of the wicked, occur during the DOTL, since that would be illogical.

I understand what you are saying and on the surface that would seem as you said logical. I thought the same. However if you look at verse 5 in English you will see the same word "ended" however in the Greek it is not the same word as in verse 7.

In Verse 5 the Greek word would be accurate with a translation of ended or complete however the word in verse 7 would more accurately translate as "at its end" or "Coming to an end"

Weymouth New Testament
20:7 But when the thousand years are at an end, the Adversary will be released from his imprisonment,

This would be a far more accurate translation of the Greek

or

Young's Literal Translation
20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,

Ironically even the Latin vulgate picks up this difference verse 5 the Latin word is completed in verse 7 comes to an end.

The King James translates these two words the same though and they are not.

Please take the time and do the research on these two words you will see they are different words with different meanings.

Now look at Ezekiel 37-38

Despite what most think Ezekiel 37 is the first resurrection

[12] Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people; and I will bring you home into the land of Israel.

That is God raising the saved and bringing them to Holy Jerusalem as declared to the prophets.

This whole section ends in 38:

[16] you will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes..........................[22] With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain upon him and his hordes and the many peoples that are with him, torrential rains and hailstones, fire and brimstone.

The latter days is the latter days of the thousand years that started in chapter 37 with the first resurrection.

So I believe that the Gog and Magog are at the end of the 1,000 years but not after the 1,000 years.

So the Day of the Lord is the 1,000 years and includes everything in Revelation 20:4-15

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Second

I strongly
and I mean strongly
disagree with the Amillennialist position that Satan is currently bound when Peter wrote long after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, that Satan prowled around like a roaring lion. That sounds like a lot of freedom and ability to deceive the world. (1 Peter 5:8), and Paul called him the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)

are Paul and Peter wrong?
cause I'd sure be disappointed if this is the best Jesus can do to restrain him.

not to mention the creation of Islam is the biggest, most consequential subversion of the truth by Satan that the world has ever seen and happened within the first Millennium after Christ ascended.
I can't express how strongly I feel both ammillennialists and post millennialists are wrong on this issue.

Tell me, do you believe that Christ's death and resurrection and the subsequent preaching of the gospel of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit had no effect on Satan? If so, then please explain how you interpret these passages:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not very mighty at all if the best he can do about "deceive the nations no more" is just "deceive the nations a little less"
and it's not until after the second coming that Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

A little less? This shows just how lacking in discernment you really are. Do you understand that many millions more have been saved during the New Testament era than in the Old Testament era? Yet, you act like there's been no difference. You act as if Christ's death and resurrection and the preaching of the gospel has had only a little bit of success in the past 2,000 years. Could you possibly be any more ignorant? I don't think so.

Do you understand how much the world was in spiritual darkness during most of the 4,000 or so years prior to Christ's first coming? In Noah's day only 8 people in the entire world were saved. Do you think it's been no different than that the past 2,000 years? It was so bad in Old Testament times that Paul said about the Gentiles that they had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" in that time (Eph 2:11-13).

During the Old Testament time there were Gentiles who were saved here and there like the Ninevites of Jonah's day and some others, but the vast majority of them were lost. That all changed when Christ came to die for their sins and give them the hope of eternal life. And many millions of people have been saved since then. Far more than were saved in Old Testament times. But, according to you things were only "a little less" worse in those times. You can't be any more ignorant than that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

All i see is opinions. Where does it say that in Scripture?

The next time he backs up his opinions with scripture will be the first time.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Hi Jeff



That does not line up with scripture

[4] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[5] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jeff I do not want what I am about to say offend you but I feel I must say it. Amills do this very often They use Paul to override Jesus words.

This is a lie and complete nonsense and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying it. You should change your name to "Just Baseless Nonsense".

You have it backwards you have to use Jesus words and understand Paul's words in light of Jesus' words not vise versa.

The reward the inheritance is described in Psalms


The princess is decked in her chamber with gold-woven robes;[14] in many-colored robes she is led to the king, with her virgin companions, her escort, in her train. [15] With joy and gladness they are led along as they enter the palace of the king. [16] Instead of your fathers shall be your sons; you will make them princes in all the earth. [17] I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations; therefore the peoples will praise you for ever and ever.

Only Guest are invited to the wedding the rest are not. Being invited to the wedding feast is the first part of the inheritance.

Now look at Paul's words in this light There Paul is talking about the end of the day when they are resurrected to the LOF. The First Resurrection is the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is a thousand years.

[8] But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Listen to Peter DO NOT ignore the facts

The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night and "sudden destruction" by fire on the entire earth from which "they shall not escape" will occur on that day. How does what you're saying line up with that? What Peter and Paul described about the day of the Lord has to do with complete global destruction occurring at that time. They do not describe the day of the Lord as being some thousand year period of time at all.

What Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:8 relates directly to 2 Peter 3:9. It has to do with the fact that time has no effect on the Lord and the reason He hasn't come back yet is because He doesn't want anyone to perish and is patiently giving people time to repent. It may seem like a long time to us for Him to return, but it's not a long time to Him. That's all 2 Peter 3:8 means. It's not referring to a thousand year time period at all. It's a description of how God looks at time. He created the realm of time and space and exists outside of it, so of course a day is no different than a thousand years to Him. A day is no different than a million years to Him.

Jesus, Paul and Peter all taught the same thing, which is that all unbelievers will be destroyed when Jesus returns.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

These passages couldn't be more clear that no unbeliever will survive the day of Christ's return. What mortals does that leave to populate the earth for a thousand years after that? Believers will all be changed and have immortality at that point (1 Cor 15:50-54). Peter said that according to the promise of Christ's second coming we're looking forward to the new heavens and new earth, not a temporal earthly kingdom (2 Peter 3:13).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

honestly though amills
how do you get around those 2 pieces of scripture I keep going back to.
2 Corinthians 4:4, and 1 Peter 5:8

Both of these verses completely refute any claim that we are in the millennial kingdom now.

We get around them very easily. Though Satan does go around seeking who he may devour, are you forgetting that all we need to do is resist him and he will flee from us (James 4:7)? Was that the case in Old Testament times? No, it was not.

Scripture says that the reason Christ came was to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). Did He fail?

It also says that through His "death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14-15). Did He fail to do that?

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Looks like He didn't.

Do you deny that we are in Christ's kingdom now?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you deny that we are in Christ's kingdom now?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;​

​

Amen!​

 

[DavidPT]

Hi David



I understand what you are saying and on the surface that would seem as you said logical. I thought the same. However if you look at verse 5 in English you will see the same word "ended" however in the Greek it is not the same word as in verse 7.

In Verse 5 the Greek word would be accurate with a translation of ended or complete however the word in verse 7 would more accurately translate as "at its end" or "Coming to an end"

Weymouth New Testament
20:7 But when the thousand years are at an end, the Adversary will be released from his imprisonment,

This would be a far more accurate translation of the Greek

or

Young's Literal Translation
20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,

Ironically even the Latin vulgate picks up this difference verse 5 the Latin word is completed in verse 7 comes to an end.

The King James translates these two words the same though and they are not.

Please take the time and do the research on these two words you will see they are different words with different meanings.

If what you are saying is so, this means the Strong's that I'm using has a typo in verse 7 since it indicates that it is the same Greek word 'teleo' that is used in both verse 3 and verse 5. My Strong's records those verses like such.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled(teleo): and after that he must be loosed a little season.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished(teleo). This is the first resurrection.

7 And when the thousand years are expired(teleo), Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Regardless whether or not the same Greek word is being used in verse 7 that is used in verse 3 and 5, how does this not prove that once satan is loosed, the thousand years have been fulfilled? As in, they would now be in the past as of verse 7. Does not verse 3 indicate that satan remains bound, unable to continue deceiving the nations, until the thousand years finish first? Does not verse 5 indicate that the rest of the dead are not permitted to live again until the thousand years are finished first? Does not verse 7 agree with verse 3, that when the thousand years are fulfilled, satan is loosed a little season?

 

[jeffweedaman]

Hello All



Bahhahahahahahahahah Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. It is not Premills that say no you are wrong this verse really means this and that verse really means this to an amill nothing that is written really means what it says you must apply a man made spiritual meaning to it so that you can understand. Bahahahahahahahahahahaha

Peter is saying Jesus has not come back yet and that The promise is still to be fulfilled. Yet you claim the Kingdom is here. It blows me away the way you use verses that totally contradict you and then say they prove your point. Paul was right a strong delusion indeed.

Indeed Peter is talking about Jesus returning and fulfilling the promise and the inheritance and yet amills claim this has already happened. Peter when directly talking about the day of the Lord says A DAY IS A THOUSAND YEARS to God and amills says when does scripture say the day of the Lord is a thousand years.

Jesus return to gather the elect, The wedding feast, the 1,000 years of peace on Earth where men learn war no more and the Judgement of the wicked they are all on the same day ie: The day of the Lord, which when discussing the day of the Lord Peter says to God a day is a thousand years. And Peter is not the only place in scripture where we are told this. tell you what I will believe the word of God and you believe your false teachers and we can both be happy.

But please do feel free to believe your heaped up piles of false teachers who have lead Christianity into thousands of years of murder death and destruction teaching false precept upon false precept lie upon lie. Christianity's sins are heaped high as heaven. Yet it still sits saying I am a queen bride of the king I shall never see sorrow.

Please read my signature verses and understand what God is saying to the Christian Churches.

Wow now that is offensive

[ Quote JTF ]
Indeed Peter is talking about Jesus returning and fulfilling the promise and the inheritance and yet amills claim this has already happened. Peter when directly talking about the day of the Lord says A DAY IS A THOUSAND YEARS to God and amills says when does scripture say the day of the Lord is a thousand years.[ end Quote]

If you read my posts properly it hasnt happened ok.

When the lord said "a thousand years are as a day" he wasnt referring to the DOTL.
He was simply stating that he is not slow in keeping his promise as we see slowness, but is patient not wanting any to perish.

 

[DavidPT]

When the lord said "a thousand years are as a day" he wasnt referring to the DOTL.

Let's look at some of the text involved in order to see if that might be so or not.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The first thing to note, it was after verse 7 when Peter then submitted verse 8. Why then would verse 8 have zero to do with what he said in verse 7? Is not verse 7 talking about a day of judgment? Is not verse 8 also talking about a day, that a day involves a thousand years? And is not the day of the Lord in verse 10 meaning the same day of judgment meant in verse 7? Putting 2 and 2 together then, it does seem like the point in verse 8 is that the day of judgment will be involving an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day or less. There is no rhyme or reason for verse 8 to be in this chapter unless it is relating to the day of judgment meant. To act as if the point involving verse 8 is that the Lord is outside of time makes no sense in this particular context. What does that have to do with anything, that the Lord is outside of time? What exactly is that supposed to prove per this particular context?

 

[Jamdoc]

Tell me, do you believe that Christ's death and resurrection and the subsequent preaching of the gospel of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit had no effect on Satan? If so, then please explain how you interpret these passages:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

A little less? This shows just how lacking in discernment you really are. Do you understand that many millions more have been saved during the New Testament era than in the Old Testament era? Yet, you act like there's been no difference. You act as if Christ's death and resurrection and the preaching of the gospel has had only a little bit of success in the past 2,000 years. Could you possibly be any more ignorant? I don't think so.

Do you understand how much the world was in spiritual darkness during most of the 4,000 or so years prior to Christ's first coming? In Noah's day only 8 people in the entire world were saved. Do you think it's been no different than that the past 2,000 years? It was so bad in Old Testament times that Paul said about the Gentiles that they had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" in that time (Eph 2:11-13).

During the Old Testament time there were Gentiles who were saved here and there like the Ninevites of Jonah's day and some others, but the vast majority of them were lost. That all changed when Christ came to die for their sins and give them the hope of eternal life. And many millions of people have been saved since then. Far more than were saved in Old Testament times. But, according to you things were only "a little less" worse in those times. You can't be any more ignorant than that.

Effect yes, a full binding? No. Not to the standards of what a perfect God who uses the terms "deceive the nations NO MORE"
This would be like the US Military having a zero tolerance policy against drug use, but then not actually kick people out when they use drugs and get caught with dirty pee. Does the US Military have a stricter standard than God? I don't think so. The whole point of the MK is to have a total reprieve from Satan's influence, so that everyone can experience living a better life on the world with God and no Satan, and see how peaceful and righteous it is, then turn Satan loose again to see how we can utterly fail God and choose what's right in our own eyes all over again and it results in war and misery. Giving us the final, nail in the coffin proof, that God's way is better and that without Him, we cannot have all the good things we want in society like peace.

We get around them very easily. Though Satan does go around seeking who he may devour, are you forgetting that all we need to do is resist him and he will flee from us (James 4:7)? Was that the case in Old Testament times? No, it was not.

Scripture says that the reason Christ came was to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). Did He fail?

It also says that through His "death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14-15). Did He fail to do that?

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Looks like He didn't.

Do you deny that we are in Christ's kingdom now?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

You don't call someone who's bound up that is able to deceive the nations NO MORE "the god of this world"

 

[Christian Gedge]

honestly though amills
how do you get around those 2 pieces of scripture I keep going back to.
2 Corinthians 4:4, and 1 Peter 5:8

Both of these verses completely refute any claim that we are in the millennial kingdom now.

Read post #228 by Spiritual Jew. But I would like to add from my studies of Judges and Kings. It gets depressing noticing how powerless and vulnerable the people were to temptation. A litany of failure from Moses to the cross. Even some of the ‘good’ kings like Asa and Joash succumbed.

When we compare the failure of the old covenant to change basic human nature, with the new covenant a distinct change is noticed in history. The gospel marches into cultures even more depraved than Israel and entire nations are lifted.

Amills see a triumphant church, and a growing kingdom, and a realised millennium. Having said that, there will be a "short season" when Satan is "loosed." I suspect we may be near that now.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Let's look at some of the text involved in order to see if that might be so or not.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The first thing to note, it was after verse 7 when Peter then submitted verse 8. Why then would verse 8 have zero to do with what he said in verse 7? Is not verse 7 talking about a day of judgment? Is not verse 8 also talking about a day, that a day involves a thousand years?

That is not at all what verse 8 means. His point has nothing to do with indicating how long the day of the Lord is. Not whatsoever. Your doctrinal bias is the only thing leading you to that conclusion. The context does not support that at all. The context is in regards to how long it's taking the Lord to return. Scoffers say He surely would have returned by now if He was going to return because it's been so long. But, it hasn't been long at all to the Lord because time doesn't affect Him at all since He exists outside of the realm of time.

And is not the day of the Lord in verse 10 meaning the same day of judgment meant in verse 7?

Sure it is.

Putting 2 and 2 together then, it does seem like the point in verse 8 is that the day of judgment will be involving an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day or less.

No, that is not the point at all. You seem to be ignoring verse 9 here. His point has nothing to do with the length of time of the day of the Lord, it has to do with the length of time it takes for Christ to return.

There is no rhyme or reason for verse 8 to be in this chapter unless it is relating to the day of judgment meant.

The relationship is that the Lord is taking His time for His second coming and day of judgment to get here because He doesn't want anyone to perish and wants everyone to repent.

To act as if the point involving verse 8 is that the Lord is outside of time makes no sense in this particular context. What does that have to do with anything, that the Lord is outside of time? What exactly is that supposed to prove per this particular context?

It proves that the scoffers are wrong to think He'll never come just because it's been a long time because it hasn't been a long time to the Lord. Why are you not taking verse 9 into account when interpreting verse 8?

You seem to have this mistaken notion that Peter was saying that one thousand years to God are equivalent to one 24 hour day, so that means the day of the Lord is a thousand years long. But, that can't be the case because that would mean time does affect God to some extent. But it does not! Peter saying that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is a day is a figurative way of saying that time does not affect the Lord, so He doesn't look at time like we do. That's it. It has nothing to do with identifying the length of time of the day of the Lord whatsoever.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Let's look at some of the text involved in order to see if that might be so or not.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The first thing to note, it was after verse 7 when Peter then submitted verse 8. Why then would verse 8 have zero to do with what he said in verse 7? Is not verse 7 talking about a day of judgment? Is not verse 8 also talking about a day, that a day involves a thousand years? And is not the day of the Lord in verse 10 meaning the same day of judgment meant in verse 7? Putting 2 and 2 together then, it does seem like the point in verse 8 is that the day of judgment will be involving an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day or less. There is no rhyme or reason for verse 8 to be in this chapter unless it is relating to the day of judgment meant. To act as if the point involving verse 8 is that the Lord is outside of time makes no sense in this particular context. What does that have to do with anything, that the Lord is outside of time? What exactly is that supposed to prove per this particular context?

These verses need to be added to the overall context...,

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

Thats why v8 is mentioned. They maintain the Lord is taking his sweet time in coming ( scoff)


8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.



10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.


The Lord comes quickly like a thief and judgment is sudden.

2Thess 1

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Twinkling of an eye event for both the ones Glorified and those eternally destroyed as it happens on that day.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Effect yes, a full binding? No.

This is obviously where we differ. I believe his binding is a restraint and keeps him from being able to have the effect on the world that he had in Old Testament times (which you seem to continue to underestimate) and you believe it's a case of him being rendered unable to do anything at all.

I gave several scriptures supporting my understanding of Satan's binding and I could give more. What scripture do you have to support your understanding that it keeps him from being able to do anything at all besides your interpretation of Revelation 20?

Not to the standards of what a perfect God who uses the terms "deceive the nations NO MORE"

The words "NO MORE" do not determine what his binding means. Don't be silly. All that means is that whatever it means for him to be bound (which we obviously disagree on), he can't do it "NO MORE" during the thousand years. It's ridiculous for you to act as if the words "NO MORE" support your view. Not at all.

I believe he was unable to keep the vast majority of the world in spiritual darkness NO MORE until he is loosed. So, those words support my doctrine just as much as yours.

This would be like the US Military having a zero tolerance policy against drug use, but then not actually kick people out when they use drugs and get caught with dirty pee. Does the US Military have a stricter standard than God? I don't think so.

This is a ridiculous example that I can't take seriously. It is YOUR assumption that he can't do anything while he is bound, not mine. I'm not obligated to agree with that understanding of what it means for him to be bound.

The whole point of the MK is to have a total reprieve from Satan's influence, so that everyone can experience living a better life on the world with God and no Satan, and see how peaceful and righteous it is, then turn Satan loose again to see how we can utterly fail God and choose what's right in our own eyes all over again and it results in war and misery.

Are you serious? So, basically, what you're saying is that the purpose of the MK is to prove something that everyone already knows. Wow. Seems pretty pointless to me.

Giving us the final, nail in the coffin proof, that God's way is better and that without Him, we cannot have all the good things we want in society like peace.

Is that something we don't already know? You truly have to be kidding me that this could possibly be the reason for a future MK.

You don't call someone who's bound up that is able to deceive the nations NO MORE "the god of this world"

He is only the god of those who love this world and are loyal to it. Is he your god or my god? No. Why not? Because he was not able to keep us in spiritual darkness due to the light of the gospel shining to us. The gospel gives people the hope of eternal life that they did not have in Old Testament times. Your inability to see (or refusal to acknowledge) the tremendous impact that Christ's death and resurrection had on Satan is the reason that you do not understand what his binding is all about.

Also, I asked you a question and I believe you should answer it. You said the verses you quoted prove that we are not in the millennial kingdom now and then I asked if you deny that we are in Christ's kingdom now. So, do you believe we are in Christ's kingdom now or not?

What do the following passages say about that?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Jamdoc]

This is obviously where we differ. I believe his binding is a restraint and keeps him from being able to have the effect on the world that he had in Old Testament times (which you seem to continue to underestimate) and you believe it's a case of him being rendered unable to do anything at all.

I gave several scriptures supporting my understanding of Satan's binding and I could give more. What scripture do you have to support your understanding that it keeps him from being able to do anything at all besides your interpretation of Revelation 20?

The words "NO MORE" do not determine what his binding means. Don't be silly. All that means is that whatever it means for him to be bound (which we obviously disagree on), he can't do it "NO MORE" during the thousand years. It's ridiculous for you to act as if the words "NO MORE" support your view. Not at all.

I believe He was unable to keep the vast majority of the world in spiritual darkness NO MORE until he is loosed. So, those words support my doctrine just as much as yours.

This is a ridiculous example that I can't take seriously. It is YOUR assumption that he can't do anything while he is bound, not mine. I'm not obligated to agree with that understanding of what it means for him to be bound.

Are you serious? So, basically, what you're saying is that the purpose of the MK is to prove something that everyone already knows. Wow. Seems pretty pointless to me.

Is that something we don't already know? You truly have to be kidding me that this could possibly be the reason for a future MK.

He is only the god of those who love this world and are loyal to it. Is he your god or my god? No. Why not? Because he was not able to keep us in spiritual darkness due to the light of the gospel shining to us. The gospel gives people the hope of eternal life that they did not have in Old Testament times. Your inability to see (or refusal to acknowledge) the tremendous impact that Christ's death and resurrection had on Satan is the reason that you do not understand what his binding is all about.

Yeah I do believe it's the purpose of the MK, we trust that God's way is better on faith but our faith is less than mustard seed sized. There's a part in all of us that would still like to choose what we want even if God doesn't want it, I know I'm guilty of it.
There's always a little something else that you might want that God has not planned for you to have. Like say after the resurrection, marriage, I know I struggle with that concept that marriage becomes illegal after the resurrection, and many other Christians would probably either like to be married then or like to remain married to their spouse, but Jesus said that's not how it's going to be in Matthew 22:30. Surely I'm not the only Christian who asks God "is there really no other way?"
Even Jesus at Gethsemane asked His Father "is there really no other way?"
sometimes we need that hard lesson to realize "there is no other way"

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yeah I do believe it's the purpose of the MK, we trust that God's way is better on faith but our faith is less than mustard seed sized. There's a part in all of us that would still like to choose what we want even if God doesn't want it, I know I'm guilty of it.
There's always a little something else that you might want that God has not planned for you to have.

Do you have any scripture to support your understanding of what the purpose of it would be or is this just complete speculation on your part?

I believe it's quite clear that we don't need a future time of peace for us to know that God's way is far better than the ways of this world.

Also, do you realize that your understanding of the MK means that you think Satan would be more successful in a short amount of time getting a number of people "as the sand of the sea" to join him than Jesus would be in 1000 years of being on a completely peaceful earth in all His glory?

Do you really think Satan is that powerful that he could mostly undo the effects Jesus and His 1000 year kingdom of peace would have on the earth in a short amount of time? If so, you are giving him too much credit and not giving Jesus enough. Remember, we're talking about Jesus in all His glory here. Why would a number "as the sand of the sea" suddenly decide that being with the King of kings and Lord of lords and having complete peace would not appeal to them anymore? I think it's crazy to think that could happen. A small number of people doing that, maybe. But it says it's a number "as the sand of the sea" who are rebellious and get killed (Rev 20:7-9) at the end of Satan's little season.

Like say after the resurrection, marriage, I know I struggle with that concept that marriage becomes illegal after the resurrection, and many other Christians would probably either like to be married then or like to remain married to their spouse, but Jesus said that's not how it's going to be in Matthew 22:30. Surely I'm not the only Christian who asks God "is there really no other way?"
Even Jesus at Gethsemane asked His Father "is there really no other way?"
sometimes we need that hard lesson to realize "there is no other way"

But, you already know about that because it's in scripture. Why do you need it to be proven to you? Sorry, but I don't buy your explanation for the purpose of a future millennial kingdom whatsoever.

 

[Jamdoc]

Do you have any scripture to support your understanding of what the purpose of it would be or is this just complete speculation on your part?

It is speculation but with the understanding that God doesn't do anything in vain, so it has to have a purpose.

I believe it's quite clear that we don't need a future time of peace for us to know that God's way is far better than the ways of this world.

Also, do you realize that your understanding of the MK means that you think Satan would be more successful in a short amount of time getting a number of people "as the sand of the sea" to join him than Jesus would be in 1000 years of being on a completely peaceful earth in all His glory?

Do you really think Satan is that powerful that he could mostly undo the effects Jesus and His 1000 year kingdom of peace would have on the earth in a short amount of time? If so, you are giving him too much credit and not giving Jesus enough. Remember, we're talking about Jesus in all His glory here. Why would a number "as the sand of the sea" suddenly decide that being with the King of kings and Lord of lords and having complete peace would not appeal to them anymore? I think it's crazy to think that could happen. A small number of people doing that, maybe. But it says it's a number "as the sand of the sea" who are rebellious and get killed (Rev 20:7-9) at the end of Satan's little season.

Actually it's not that Satan is more powerful, it's that Man is so fallible. It is a duplication of the first sin that is the last sin.
Before Satan entered the Garden and provided an alternative viewpoint to God's viewpoint, Man obeyed God. Satan came in Genesis 3, and offered an alternative to obeying God, and mankind in their fallibility, accepted the alternative.
the Millennial Kingdom is living without that alternative for 1000 years, the alternative is provided again one last time, to show that there really is no alternative. Some people need that final shock, because we have things that we'd like that God does not want us to have, and we'd think we'd be happier with them.

But, you already know about that because it's in scripture. Why do you need it to be proven to you? Sorry, but I don't buy your explanation for the purpose of a future millennial kingdom whatsoever.

Because we're weak and have less than mustard seed sized faith.
again
even Jesus asked His Father "is there any other way?"