One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

[redleghunter]

This was addressed already - https://www.christianforums.com/threads/hebrews-sabbath-rest-how-do-you-read-it.8091429/page-5#post-73449080 - (and I cite):

"You just erred and fulfilled Peter's concerns (as by the Holy Ghost), in

2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The wages of sin is death/destruction. Sin is the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4; Exodus 20:1-17; Romans 7:7). Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, sin:

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Paul himself wrote:

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Why are those that Paul is talking about, "enemies of the cross of Christ"? Because they want the name, but not the repentance. They refuse to come into obedience to God's Law, through God's grace, which is what the Ten Commandments start with:

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Saved by Grace.

Followed by loving obedience, through faith in the salvation wrought in Christ Jesus:

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

How many lawgivers?

Jas_4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Romans 14, the quick of it.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

This is used to teach that God regards not any day as Holy, such as the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), and that all days or no days may be kept at man's whim. Yet that is not what Romans 14 (and yea, all of Romans) teaches at all. Notice carefully,

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.

[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:

Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14

[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14

[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

[18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances"

And if you looke carefully at Romans 13:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

(mankind must itself at every moment fulfill the law, as it is written elsewhere, Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. and James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well

Rom 13:9 For this (citing Exodus 20, the Ten Commandments, from the second Table, dealing with man to man), Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended (in otherwords, there is much more, as Psalms 119:96) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Law of God, the Ten Commandments, that spiritual (Romans 7:14) Law of God, is ever present to be fulfilled by those indwelt by the Holy Ghost, as Jesus was (Luke 4:14-19; Acts 5:32).

The issues in the Roman church weren't sabbath-breaking (they already honored it). It was rather those specific things mentioned by Paul.

I agree love of God and neighbor fulfills the Law. How else is one going to know the Holy Spirit testifies to their spirit they are a child of God? Following the letter of the law?

 

[mmksparbud]

I agree love of God and neighbor fulfills the Law. How else is one going to know the Holy Spirit testifies to their spirit they are a child of God? Following the letter of the law?

I see everybody bypassed this one.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

This is not talking about "resting in Jesus" as you all think. We rest in Jesus everyday. This is about the Sabbath rest---verse 10---God ceased from work on the 7th day from His works--and His works does not mean that He stopped doing the works of the law! He ceased work and that is what we are to do. Hebrew here is definitely talking about the Sabbath day commandment to rest---just as Jesus did after creating it.

 

[Danthemailman]

I see everybody bypassed this one.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

This is not talking about "resting in Jesus" as you all think. We rest in Jesus everyday. This is about the Sabbath rest---verse 10---God ceased from work on the 7th day from His works--and His works does not mean that He stopped doing the works of the law! He ceased work and that is what we are to do. Hebrew here is definitely talking about the Sabbath day commandment to rest---just as Jesus did after creating it.

The original plan was to rest in God every day, as there was no command to specifically keep the seventh day holy prior to Exodus 16:23, which was a command for Israel. God intended for humanity to live resting in Him. Hebrews 4 restored the original plan. Hebrews 4:9, we read - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

*Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used here and no where else in the Bible! Amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else! *Here the Sabbath rest is the perpetual rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with Jesus Christ, in contrast to keeping the weekly seventh day Sabbath under the law.

 

[mmksparbud]

The original plan was to rest in God every day, as there was no command to specifically keep the seventh day holy prior to Exodus 16:23, which was a command for Israel. God intended for humanity to live resting in Him. Hebrews 4 restored the original plan. Hebrews 4:9, we read - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

*Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used here and no where else in the Bible! Amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else! *Here the Sabbath rest is the perpetual rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with Jesus Christ, in contrast to keeping the weekly seventh day Sabbath under the law.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[Danthemailman]

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Once again, perpetual rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with Jesus Christ, in contrast to keeping the weekly seventh day Sabbath under the law.

 

[mmksparbud]

Once again, perpetual rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with Jesus Christ, in contrast to keeping the weekly seventh day Sabbath under the law.

Once again---as God did from his.

 

[Danthemailman]

Once again---as God did from his.

Hope this helps.

The Seventh Day & Creation

Sabbatismos Ministries: Finding Our Rest in Christ - Is the Sabbath Still Required for Christians?

 

[mmksparbud]

Hope this helps.

The Seventh Day & Creation

Sabbatismos Ministries: Finding Our Rest in Christ - Is the Sabbath Still Required for Christians?

Again---
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS.

Hope that helps. Unless, of course, you believe Jesus was resting in Jesus---as he is the Creator.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I've been told the sabbath is optional, and just a day of rest from work. I took his word by faith. Then I hear different perspectives I can't figure out which one is true. The Bible doesn't seem to support Sabbath-keeping in the new covenant from when I read.

Where can I find an undeniable fact that it's either optional or that we are meant to still keep it?
I am still confused on this controversy, and on top of that even if the 7th day is the day of worship there are literally no churches around me that even worship on the 7th day. And if its not even a big deal, I have no problem worshipping on Sunday.

.....and on top of that even if the 7th day is the day of worship there are literally no churches around me that even worship on the 7th day.....

Here is a site I found on the different church denominations and locations that observe the Sabbath:

Sabbath Keeping Churches - Sabbath Keeping Denominations

Below is a list of over 500 Sabbath keeping Churches of all different denominations. Many say that Sabbath keeping is legalism but legalism is something you do to earn your way to heaven......................

For guidance in finding a Biblically accurate Church, you will find the web site finding the Remnant Church extremely helpful.
[Please do not ask us what denomination we are as we would rather you judge truth by the Word of God and not by what Church we attend.]

Directory of Sabbath Churches Worldwide:....................................
[This list of Sabbath keeping Churches is updated on a regular basis.]
================================================
However, unlike Christian sabbattarians, [may include Messianic Jews], Orthodox non-Christian Jews worship in "synagogues" and hold completely to the Law of Moses.

Joshua 8:31 as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the Book of the Law of Moses:
Malachi 4:4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,With the statutes and judgments.

But having no Temple or Sanctuary since the divine destruction of their Temple/Priesthood in 70ad, some of the Jewish practices like sacrifices and a High Priesthood are put on hold.
Click me 70ad

The words Synagogue<4864>and Sabbath are mentioned frequently in the NT, more notably in the 70ad Temple/Jerusalem discourse.

G4864 synagogue (NKJV)
G4864 συναγωγή (synagōgē), occurs 57 times in 57 verses

Matthew 10:17
Be on your guard;
you will be handed over to the local sanhedrins<4892>
and be flogged in the synagogues.

Matthew 23:34
“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes:
some of them you will kill and crucify,
and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues
and persecute from city to city,

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
[work still in progress]

Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you,
and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
13 “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13
9 But take heed to yourselves:
for they shall deliver you up to sanhedrins<4892>
and in synagogues shall ye be beaten;
and before governors and kings shall ye stand for my sake, for a testimony unto them.
13 “And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved

Luke 21
12 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you
and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
17 “And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

And why would Jesus tell His Jewish followers to pray their flight not be on a Sabbath?

Matthew 24
19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!
20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath<4521>
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.




.

 

[bekkilyn]

Again---
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS.

Hope that helps. Unless, of course, you believe Jesus was resting in Jesus---as he is the Creator.

This is not talking about observing a seventh day sabbath as practiced by the Israelites, but of a future destination of entering God's kingdom. Hebrews makes the comparison of the Israelites entering God's "rest" when they entered the Promised Land, and this "still open" (v.1) even greater rest is yet to come.

We enter God's rest every "today" (v.7) in Christ, who gives us our rest (Matthew 11:28) and points towards the final destination of God's coming kingdom that is currently left open. (v.9)

Keep in mind that in the book of Hebrews, the author is addressing a primarily Jewish audience and is using scripture and examples that are very familiar to them to help them understand Christ. These Christian Jews were under heavy persecution from both fellow Jews and from Rome and the author was trying to encourage and motivate them to stay steady on the course and not go back to their old ways before Christ.

You can't just cherry-pick out a couple verses that have the word "sabbath" in them and decide that it means everyone for all time observing a seventh day sabbath as it isn't at all what the book of Hebrews is about and isn't what the author is addressing here.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is not talking about observing a seventh day sabbath as practiced by the Israelites, but of a future destination of entering God's kingdom. Hebrews makes the comparison of the Israelites entering God's "rest" when they entered the Promised Land, and this "still open" (v.1) even greater rest is yet to come.

We enter God's rest every "today" (v.7) in Christ, who gives us our rest (Matthew 11:28) and points towards the final destination of God's coming kingdom that is currently left open. (v.9)

Keep in mind that in the book of Hebrews, the author is addressing a primarily Jewish audience and is using scripture and examples that are very familiar to them to help them understand Christ. These Christian Jews were under heavy persecution from both fellow Jews and from Rome and the author was trying to encourage and motivate them to stay steady on the course and not go back to their old ways before Christ.

You can't just cherry-pick out a couple verses that have the word "sabbath" in them and decide that it means everyone for all time observing a seventh day sabbath as it isn't at all what the book of Hebrews is about and isn't what the author is addressing here.

Again---
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS.
Unless, of course, you, too, believe Jesus was resting in Jesus---as He is the Creator.

 

[bekkilyn]

Again---
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS.
Unless, of course, you, too, believe Jesus was resting in Jesus---as He is the Creator.

And repeating the same apparently out-of-context verses over and over is supposed to prove your point how? People who are in Christ are of course ceased from their *own* works because they don't own any of their works. God does.

 

[gordonhooker]

And repeating the same apparently out-of-context verses over and over is supposed to prove your point how? People who are in Christ are of course ceased from their *own* works because they don't own any of their works. God does.

I suppose if they say something often enough people will give up and walk away... I believe it is trying to get in the last word.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

You know when an SDA starts a thread, [not the OP of this one], it is eventually going to lead to 7th day worship/Sabbath vs Sunday.
For example, the title of this thread on the Controversial CT board "are you ready for the mark of the beast" where 15 questions are asked......now, look at question 12

Controversial Christian Theology

ARE YOU READY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST?

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION (linked to scripture studies in this thread)

Q1. WHAT IS THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL? v6 linked
Q2. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO FEAR GOD? v7 linked
Q3. HOW DO WE GIVE GLORY TO GOD? v7 linked
Q4. WHAT IS THE JUDGMENT ABOUT? v7 linked
Q5. WHO DOES BABYLON THE HARLOT WOMAN REPRESENT? v8; 17:1-5; 18:1-9
Q6. THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS OVER WHORSHIP v8-12
Q7. WHO IS GOD’S TRUE CHURCH IN GOD’S WORD? v12
Q8. WHAT DOES A BEAST OF KINGDOM REPRESENT IN DANIAL AND REVELATIONS?
Q9 WHAT ARE THE SYMBOLS AND MEANING OF MARK, SIGN AND SEAL?
Q10. WHAT IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND WHEN DO PEOPLE RECEIVE IT?
Q11. THE SEAL OF GOD HOW DO WE GET IT?
Q12. DID YOU KNOW THAT THE CIVIL SUNDAY LAWS HAVE ALREADY PASSED?
Q13. WHO IS THE ANTICHRIST, THE MAN OF SIN, THE BEAST AND 666?
Q14. WHO DID THE EARLY REFORMERS BELIEVE THE ANTICHRIST WAS? 1/2
Q15. WHO DID THE EARLY REFORMERS BELIEVE THE ANTICHRIST WAS? 2/2

QUESTIONS TO THINK ABOUT




,

 

[mmksparbud]

And repeating the same apparently out-of-context verses over and over is supposed to prove your point how? People who are in Christ are of course ceased from their *own* works because they don't own any of their works. God does.

Seems there is a reading and comprehension problem at times.

AS GOD DID FROM HIS.

'nuff said--

 

[bekkilyn]

Seems there is a reading and comprehension problem at times.

AS GOD DID FROM HIS.

'nuff said--

Yes, there does seem to be a reading and comprehension problem because you keep repeating this phrase out of context and tossing out the rest of the book of Hebrews that inconveniently has a whole different message and purpose than the one you are attempting to force onto it.

 

[Danthemailman]

I suppose if they something often enough people will give up and walk away... I believe it is trying to get in the last word.

Some people MUST have the last word in ANY argument and anything that you say to them after that is the beginning of a new argument.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes, there does seem to be a reading and comprehension problem because you keep repeating this phrase out of context and tossing out the rest of the book of Hebrews that inconveniently has a whole different message and purpose than the one you are attempting to force onto it.

It is not out of context at all and I read the entire book of Hebrews. It all also fits perfectly with the rest of the bible, which I also read.

 

[bekkilyn]

It is not out of context at all and I read the entire book of Hebrews. It all also fits perfectly with the rest of the bible, which I also read.

Reading is not the same as understanding what it is that you are reading. You see the word "sabbath" in it and then jump to a conclusion that is not evident in the context of the message.

 

[mmksparbud]

Some people MUST have the last word in ANY argument and anything that you say to them after that is the beginning of a new argument.

Yah--doesn't that drive you nuts? Would you like to have that last word?----I don't see where there is anything new being said--I think I am done---you may have it. I am tired--My last word on this thread is---

AS GOD DID FROM HIS.

'nuff said--