One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

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ace of hearts

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Thank God. Praise the Lord.

Mal 2:11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. (Sunday sacredness; Ezekiel 8:16)
The verse has nothing to do with worshiping on Sunday. The verse clearly says they were worshiping an idol, nothing more.
Mal 2:12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
This has no bearing or meaning for the Christian. You're simply using a concordance to quote anything with the word "scholar" in it.
(better leave the scholar - ship, before it sinks to the bottom, and join us who are in the disciple - ship)
And that disciple ship isn't of Jesus.
1Ti_6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
I fully understand your tactical use of the above. What was committed to Timothy's trust by Paul? Was it the law Timothy already had by his upbringing? The things that were committed to Timothy's trust are the things I uphold here.
Mar_12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Who did the common people hear gladly? David or Jesus?
 
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ace of hearts

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There’s no point in going back and forth on this anymore. You genuinely believe that Jesus taught you to disobey God’s commandments. There’s not much else to say if you and @ace of hearts persist on following and promoting a lawless and disobedient version of Jesus that’s not written about in the Bible
Please give examples of our wicked teaching.
 
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ace of hearts

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I see everybody bypassed this one.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

This is not talking about "resting in Jesus" as you all think. We rest in Jesus everyday. This is about the Sabbath rest---verse 10---God ceased from work on the 7th day from His works--and His works does not mean that He stopped doing the works of the law! He ceased work and that is what we are to do. Hebrew here is definitely talking about the Sabbath day commandment to rest---just as Jesus did after creating it.
No the Creator didn't take a periodic rest and return to creating. He ceased work as the word means. The same Hebrew word is used about the sabbath.
 
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ace of hearts

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I suppose if they say something often enough people will give up and walk away... I believe it is trying to get in the last word. :D
That's one of their goals.
 
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BobRyan

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No the Creator didn't take a periodic rest and return to creating. He ceased work as the word means. The same Hebrew word is used about the sabbath.

Let God speak to that point.

Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (yhwh) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

John 5:17
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
 
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BobRyan

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I agree love of God and neighbor fulfills the Law. How else is one going to know the Holy Spirit testifies to their spirit they are a child of God? Following the letter of the law?

Paul makes it clear

Eph 6:2 obey the 5th commandment for the 5th commandment "is the first commandment WITH a promise" in God's Commandmets... the Ten.

As both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" agree - (see their section 19)

Truth matters and will change lives.

That's one of their goals.

I'd like to think so when it comes to "Truth matters as changes lives"
 
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BobRyan

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I suppose if they say something often enough people will give up and walk away... I believe it is trying to get in the last word. :D

Its the Bible content of such posts - that keep this thread going. Because it makes it appear that only the Ten Commandments of God actually have Bible support.
 
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BobRyan

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And repeating the same apparently out-of-context verses over and over is supposed to prove your point how? People who are in Christ are of course ceased from their *own* works because they don't own any of their works. God does.

Amen
 
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liberty of conscience

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No way our righteousness doesn't come by the law

Where ever did I say it did? I have never said such a thing, nor taught it, neither implied.

Produce the evidence, otherwise the reaction is merely Hayfever, or known as straw-maning it. You simply attacked a position I never took (waste of ammo and energy, like Kim Jong Il and Un of N. Korea).
 
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liberty of conscience

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And what is Jesus teaching when He says "but I say...."

He is contrasting Himself the Master and what God said, with those who merely call themselves 'teachers of the law (torah)' and what they say but do not understand.

Mat_23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Thus Jesus is speaking/teaching in contra-distinction to "Ye have heard that it was said by them ..." (Matthew 5:21) (oral (early talmudic, mishnah), not "It is written", "Thus saith the Lord", ye have read, ye have seen with your eyes, the book said, etc)

Jesus, sitting upon the Mount, expounds (Matthew 7:12) upon the depths of the Law of God, the Ten Commandments especially (Matthew 7:21,23,24-27; Psalms 40:8; even the 'Torah' and prophets) in Matthew 5 (Psalms 119:96; see Matthew 5:5 and unite with Exodus 20:12).

Jesus is speaking the words His Father gave Him to speak:

Joh_8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh_12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Joh_12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

That is why Jesus says, "It is written" in many places. Jesus speaks the words of the Father, and the Holy Ghost repeats the words of Jesus.

The Pharisees, Scribes, etc., would say (in seconding the Law of God) in teaching, "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery", and yet the Pharisees would be seen divorcing and discussing methods of how to divorce for any reason (Matthew 5:31), plotting in their hearts for greed, backbiting, gnashing with their teeth, etc. They would "say" many other things in teaching the people (even from the days of Nehemiah), who may not have been able to read or write.

Joh 7:49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

They noticed of Peter and John:

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Thus most of the population was given to listening to what was written or said (by this or that one, R. this and R. that), though most had no idea what was actually written, except as through the mouth of the local priest, scribe, Pharisees (Rabbi), etc.

Yet, Jesus's life was distinct in its perfect obedience to what was written, and even the guards noticed, and thus the teaching was in His doing, the word matched the deeds done:

Mat_7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Joh_7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Jesus never said, "Don't not kill." or "Don't not commit adultery", but rather instead shewed the depths of the commandments of God, in the face of what men have made of it.

Jesus is not speaking in contradiction to God's (His Father's Law, the) Ten Commandments, but rather to the (oral) teachings and traditions of men (Ye have heard that it was said ...) to "I (Jesus at behest of the Father) say ..."

In other words, Jesus was to make known what the Father really wanted in obedience (spirit (heart) and in truth (deed)), compared to what men passed off as outward obedience which was wholly disobedience masking as compliance.

Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
 
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liberty of conscience

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Now this verse (Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?) is a great question I'd love for you to answer in a direct manner.

My boast is not in the Law. It is in Christ Jesus, who is the living breathing example of it in the life. It is Jesus that saves from sin (delivers me from transgressing the law (1 John 3:4)).

At any point I disobey God in God's law, while professing to be of God's people is indeed dishonour (transgression of the 5th Commandment, Exodus 20:12) to God. See Romans 2:24.

Notice, it is not "the Law" itself that dishonours God, nor the keeping of that Law (by and through the Holy Ghost), but rather it is in the "breaking the law" while professing to be of God's people.
 
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ace of hearts

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Let God speak to that point.

Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (yhwh) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

John 5:17
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Yes let God speak on that. Your verse Jn 5:17 doesn't say anything about creation which God didn't return to doing. Genesis self defines what God ceased (shabath translated rested) from doing.
 
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Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
 
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ace of hearts

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This was given you before, and thus no more may be given. If you reject this, you will never see and thus remain blind (darkness; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13) forever:
So why are you making a personal accusatory statement against the poster saying nothing about Hebrews and referencing verses that essentially say the poster is in darkness? Is this doing what you want others to do to you?

And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. (Jesus in Luke 6:31)
 
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liberty of conscience

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Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 
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ace of hearts

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Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
"ended" - kalah
to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent

  1. (Qal)
    1. to be complete, be at an end

    2. to be completed, be finished

    3. to be accomplished, be fulfilled

    4. to be determined, be plotted (bad sense)

    5. to be spent, be used up

    6. to waste away, be exhausted, fail

    7. to come to an end, vanish, perish, be destroyed
  2. (Piel)
    1. to complete, bring to an end, finish

    2. to complete (a period of time)

    3. to finish (doing a thing)

    4. to make an end, end

    5. to accomplish, fulfil, bring to pass

    6. to accomplish, determine (in thought)

    7. to put an end to, cause to cease

    8. to cause to fail, exhaust, use up, spend

    9. to destroy, exterminate
  3. (Pual) to be finished, be ended, be completed
"rested" - shabath

  1. to cease, desist, rest
    1. (Qal)
      1. to cease

      2. to rest, desist (from labour)
    2. (Niphal) to cease

    3. (Hiphil)
      1. to cause to cease, put an end to

      2. to exterminate, destroy

      3. to cause to desist from

      4. to remove

      5. to cause to fail
  2. (Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath
 
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The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi)

Genesis
2:1-3; (see also, Genesis 18:19, 26:5, &c.)

The sabbath commandment in the beginning with God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Psalms 119:142).

The sabbath commandment with Adam (Mark 2:27).
The sabbath commandment with Enoch (Genesis 5:22,24; Hebrews 11:5; Isaiah 58:13)
The sabbath commandment with Noah (Genesis 6:9; 2 Peter 2:5; Psalms 119:172).
The sabbath commandment with Eber (Genesis 10:21,24-25; Exodus 3:18, 5:3, 7:16).
The sabbath commandment with Abaham (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5; 2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23; John 15:14).
The sabbath commandment with Isaac (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5).
The sabbath commandment with Jacob/Israel (Genesis 17:9, 18:19, 26:5, 32:28).
The sabbath commandment with Moses (Exodus 5:4-5;, 16:1-36, 20:8-11; Deuteornomy 5:12-15, 31:12-18). ...
The sabbath commandment with Jesus (Luke 4:16-19).
The sabbath commandment with the Apostles/Disciples (Acts 1:2, (4:24), 13:14,27,42,44, (14:15), 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4; Hebrews 3:11,18, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; Revelation 1:10, 10:6, 12:17, 14:6-7)
The sabbath commandment with us today (Hebrews 4:9; Revelation 12:17, 14:6-7; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6,8-11).
The sabbath commandment on into eternity (Isaiah 66:23).

Exodus 5:4-5,8-9, 16:23-30, 20:8-11, 23:12, 31:12-18, 34:21, 35:1-3
Leviticus 19:3,30, 23:3,11,15-16,38, 24:8, 26:2
Numbers 15:32, 28:9
Deuteronomy 5:12-15
2 Kings 4:23, 11:5,7,9, 16:18
1 Chronicles 9:32, 23:31
2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:13, 23:4,8, 31:3
Nehemiah 9:6,14, 10:31,33, 13:15-22
Psalms 92:1, 146:6
Isaiah 56:2,4,6, 58:13, 66:23
Jeremiah 17:21-27
Ezekiel 20:12-24, 22:8,26, 23:38, 44:24, 46:1,3-4,12
Amos 8:5

The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the New Testament:

Matthew 12:1,2,5,8,10,11,12, 24:20, 28:1;
Mark 1:21, 2:23,24,27,28, 3:2,4, 6:2, 7:6-9, 15:42, 16:1;
Luke 4:16,31, 6:1,2,5,6,7,9, 13:10,14,15,16, 14:1,3,5, 23:54,56;
John 5:9,10,16,18, 7:22,23, 9:14,16, 12:1 (calculated), 19:31;
Acts 1:2, 13:14,27,42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4;

Additional references are:

John 12:1 (six days before the Passover, Jesus was at Lazarus' house, on Sabbath)

Hebrews 3:11, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; [Hebrews 4:9 "rest" Greek: sabbatismos, literal sabbath-keeping]

Revelation 1:10 [kuriake hemera, "the Lord's Day" [the 7th Day Sabbath, not "the Day of the Lord", this is totally different in the Greek], see Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Deuteronomy 5:12:15, Isaiah 58:13, 66:23, Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:27,28; Luke 6:5 ], Revelation 10:6 [see also Exodus 20:11, 31:17; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 146:6; Acts 4:24, 14:15, Revelation 14:7]; Revelation 14:7 [see previous], etc

Additionally, further references in the Greek are [every single 'first [day] of the week' text, as each text clearly shows that the first day is simply a number, with no special association or designation, other than it is simply one day toward the culmination of the week, being the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God]:

Matthew 28:1(a) - (Koine Greek) οψε δε σαββατων (Transliterated) oye de sabbatwn
Matthew 28:1(b) - (Koine Greek) εις μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) eiV mian sabbatwn
Mark 16:2 - (Koine Greek) και λιαν πρωι της μιας σαββατων (Transliterated) kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn
Mark 16:9 - (Koine Greek) αναστας δε πρωι πρωτη σαββατου (Transliterated) anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou
Luke 24:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn
John 20:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn
John 20:19 - (Koine Greek) τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th mia twn sabbatwn
Acts 20:7 - (Koine Greek) εν δε τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) en de th mia twn sabbatwn
1 Corinthians 16:2 - (Koine Greek) κατα μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) kata mian sabbatwn

That the Sabbath [of the Lord thy God], [being] the 7th day, is always the culmination of the week in God's Created order and is always referred to as such in all of scripture.

Therefore, every single “first [day] of the week” text upholds the 7th Day Sabbath, and is undeniable evidence of its continued existence and prominence.
 
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ace of hearts

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He is contrasting Himself the Master and what God said, with those who merely call themselves 'teachers of the law (torah)' and what they say but do not understand.
You have the opportunity to quote any passage that God made the "but I say...." statements any place in the Scripture.
Mat_23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
What does this have to do with our discussion?
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Thus Jesus is speaking/teaching in contra-distinction to "Ye have heard that it was said by them ..." (Matthew 5:21) (oral (early talmudic, mishnah), not "It is written", "Thus saith the Lord", ye have read, ye have seen with your eyes, the book said, etc)

Jesus, sitting upon the Mount, expounds (Matthew 7:12) upon the depths of the Law of God, the Ten Commandments especially (Matthew 7:21,23,24-27; Psalms 40:8; even the 'Torah' and prophets) in Matthew 5 (Psalms 119:96; see Matthew 5:5 and unite with Exodus 20:12).
Very good. Now what about the "but I say.... statements? They had never been heard before by anyone.
Jesus is speaking the words His Father gave Him to speak:
True. Now where are these statements recorded outside of Jesus saying them?
Joh_8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
True. Now where are these statements recorded outside of Jesus saying them?
Joh_12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
True. Now where are these statements recorded outside of Jesus saying them?
Joh_12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
True. Now where are these statements recorded outside of Jesus saying them?
That is why Jesus says, "It is written" in many places. Jesus speaks the words of the Father, and the Holy Ghost repeats the words of Jesus.
Produce the "but I say...." statements from any other place in the Scripture. They weren't previously written.
The Pharisees, Scribes, etc., would say (in seconding the Law of God) in teaching, "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery", and yet the Pharisees would be seen divorcing and discussing methods of how to divorce for any reason (Matthew 5:31), plotting in their hearts for greed, backbiting, gnashing with their teeth, etc. They would "say" many other things in teaching the people (even from the days of Nehemiah), who may not have been able to read or write.
None of which are prohibited by anything in the OT.
Joh 7:49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

They noticed of Peter and John:

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
This has nothing to do with our discussion. So I take it you're using this as an accusation against me to destroy. OK, I understand the law mind set.
Thus most of the population was given to listening to what was written or said (by this or that one, R. this and R. that), though most had no idea what was actually written, except as through the mouth of the local priest, scribe, Pharisees (Rabbi), etc.
I specifically asked you about the several "but I say.... statements found in the Sermon on the Mount made by Jesus as found in Matthew. Why are you avoiding them? There is nothing I said from some rabbi, preacher or other source.
Yet, Jesus's life was distinct in its perfect obedience to what was written, and even the guards noticed, and thus the teaching was in His doing, the word matched the deeds done:

Mat_7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Joh_7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Jesus never said, "Don't not kill." or "Don't not commit adultery", but rather instead shewed the depths of the commandments of God, in the face of what men have made of it.
Why the distraction with these statements?
Jesus is not speaking in contradiction to God's (His Father's Law, the) Ten Commandments, but rather to the (oral) teachings and traditions of men (Ye have heard that it was said ...) to "I (Jesus at behest of the Father) say ..."
The "but I say..." statements zren't found anywhere else in Scripture. Those statements are clearly not the law or from the famous 10.
In other words, Jesus was to make known what the Father really wanted in obedience (spirit (heart) and in truth (deed)), compared to what men passed off as outward obedience which was wholly disobedience masking as compliance.
Compliance with the famous 10 doesn't include the "but I say..." statements in any form. Thus there was no requirement to perform them. All the famous 10 are about performance of the body of flesh. They have no spiritual connection. This is why Paul refers to them as carnal.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Why are you including this verse?
 
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ace of hearts

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My boast is not in the Law. It is in Christ Jesus, who is the living breathing example of it in the life. It is Jesus that saves from sin (delivers me from transgressing the law (1 John 3:4)).
Aren't claiming sin is only and always the breaking of the law? Since we are now delivered from the law (Rom 7:6) the famous 10 as illustrated in verse 7, how can we be in violation? Sin was before the law - Rom 5:13 and the law (famous 10) was added because of sin (Gal 3:19). There's a four letter word in the text of your reference you refuse to read. The word is "also." That excludes you idea of only and always.
At any point I disobey God in God's law, while professing to be of God's people is indeed dishonour (transgression of the 5th Commandment, Exodus 20:12) to God. See Romans 2:24.

Notice, it is not "the Law" itself that dishonours God, nor the keeping of that Law (by and through the Holy Ghost), but rather it is in the "breaking the law" while professing to be of God's people.
Is regular repeated sin something repented of? What does repent mean? Doesn't it mean turn away from and go in another direction? Have you read what Love God's Word says about this? He says it often in the Sabbath and Law section.
 
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ace of hearts

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Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Yes I read it. It isn't given to the world much less the Christian. We have a new covenant which doesn't include this requirement.
 
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