Once Saved, Always Saved?

[SeventyOne]

Now to be fair.. Some would say that osas is a doctrine of devils.

Just as some would say the alternative "salvation by works" is also a doctrine of devils.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

this is nothing to do with whether i am perfect lol. it is what JESUS states and i assure you he is not delusional , nor am i for agreeing with him.the first thing he preached was REPENT ..it means to rethink to turn and think again and agree with God ..then follow him obediently ..
if we don't do that then we remain in rebellion to him . it wont mater if you've recited some salvation prayer .. when one believes in the heart it comes forth in their lives as obedience to god . that the evidence that it is from the heart . but if sin is continually practiced .. for example a person keeps committing adultery by looking at porn etc , and wont stop doing so even though Jesus has already set them free .. then they will perish in their sin..
turning the topic against me personally wont change the gospel and we are to obey the gospel .disobedience is rebellion and the rebellious do not enter the kingdom of god .

So, God abandons you after a couple weeks of pornography and you fall from grace. So, he takes back the gift that his word says is irrevocable and I'm unsealed (permanent marking) and the holy spirit that was given to me leaves. Now, what exact work do I have to do to get back into his graces? Just stop the action altogether or say another special prayer? In your perfectionist doctrine there is no room for justification or sanctification. I agree that we all repent from sins, in the sense that we recognize them as what they are, but I don't believe Christ takes back what he gives and I don't believe that any true Christian does live in a constant state of sin for instance. However , as I said before, I don't believe once you are saved you instantly are cured from any addiction you ever had or that you don't have trouble with anger or controlling your mouth. You may come from a privileged upbringing and enjoyed the shading of a nice rock and a silver spoon (who knows?), but some of us have lived life and been to some pretty bad places. And I think it's pretty crappy that you want to demonize and send to hell everyone who's life is still being worked on, because they don't fit your doctrines of salvation and not Christ's. We can turn scripture or isolate specific passages all day, but his gift is irrevocable and we are sealed and hath salvation (present tense) (That means now btw). I never avoided your question about having a favorite sin, because I don't have one. Each of my sins disgusts me, sometimes to the point of depression and exacerbates other mental issues I already have. Like I said I have struggled with alcoholism in the past and smoking and none of those issues were cut and dry. They took work and that's real obiendience and freedom and strength. I know we wont see eye to eye on anything, but I wanted to reply to your last post, because I was busy all day and didn't have the chance. I'm also not afraid to admit that I've struggled with pornography addiction since I was about 9 that stemmed from multiple cases of sexual abuse. I'm doing extremely well now (though probably absolutely hell bound for even writing that sentence.). I've also had a long history of self-harm and 2 incidents of nearly completed, but interrupted suicides. (Make fun of those too please)

You also seem to flip flop on what lands you out of grace and what doesn't. As I said in my earlier post, your version of salvation makes the bibles seem insane, because it's incomplete. I don't know if you have kids, but when I bought mine one of those little cars that you can get into and use your feet to drive it came with a manual. This manual was clear and precise about exactly what I had to do to put it together (once i found the English directions). Now, I know you can quote a scripture here and a few over there, but you never use all the scripture. You always leave out the OSAS passages and don't want to look at them and can't justify why they exist, because in my estimation they far out weigh what I've found for arguments against OSAS (I wasn't always OSAS btw and no that doesn't mean that I was anti-osas until i found a really cool sin. Can't oversimplify things here). So, what I'm saying is that your Bible is going to save no one and can't fully explain it's most important doctrine clearly enough (like my technical manual). I have trouble reconciling that. I once got into a discussion with a perfectionist like yourself on youtube and he suffered from severe anger issues, guess he's hell bound lol. Anyway, that's really all I have to say.

 

[muchado]

Welcome to CF, enjoy you time, get to know people you have a lot in common with.

Not the way you stated it when I read it. Sure people have all kinds of struggles with salvation. More often that not those who were having big difficulties were ones that really did not know the Lord. Many who doubted they were saved were avoiding responsible for sin in their life, sometimes sexual unfaithfulness. Perhaps the biggest was porn addiction. About 75% to 80% of all so called Christian men are regular viewers of porn. Don't forget 60% the pastors, they have reported about 60% are also viewers of porn. It makes me sick to think of refereeing someone to a pastor that watches porn.

People who struggle as Christians are not honest about sin in their lives. That is a problem, and sin causes people to doubt their salvation. But 1John 1: 9 must be taken seriously. Often God forgives us, but we can not forgive ourself.

Thank you for taking time both to welcome me and to respond to me.

I have reread YS-Jeff's post and I don't think I see quite the stark distinction that he makes. I don't think I have met people quite like the first group he mentions. I see that you also see some distinction, namely those who probably aren't saved.

I am familiar with the concept of failing to forgive ourselves. I have heard it preached and also applied it to myself. I would be interested in hearing a scriptural basis for it. Do you have any example?

 

[Seth Rhinehart]

I think it's easy to forget that our faith is a journey, with a destination and terrain to cross. I feel like the Bible is more like a map than the puzzle it's made to seem like here. So, when I read these kinds of discussions I can't help but think that we too often mistake the map for the terrain.

This is a good case in point. There are clearly statements in the text that conflict with one another. Does that mean that one is true and the other false? Of course not. But I find that there are places on my path where I walk with certainty in the light of my salvation, and others where the darkness of doubt threatens to overwhelm me. And the Bible invariably lights my way so that I do not grow comfortably sedentary in the one circumstance or hopelessly paralyzed in the other. The more familiar I am with the map, by the way, the easier these passages in life are to navigate.

Hope this helps,
Seth

 

[Wordkeeper]

Israel left Egypt for better prospects, because God promised her that He would take them to a better place . The problem for Israel is that the better place required her to be loyal to God, be faithful, confusingly translated as believe. Faith in the ANE, Ancient Near East, is a word that is mostly used to mean loyalty . So God teaches Israel how to be loyal (drinking from the Rock, manna from Heaven, which is what He provided, not Moses, both represented by the word 'Christ', equaling unstinting loyalty) and tests her for comprehension.

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Paul uses the Exodus event to teach the first century church in Corinthians , how to be saved, enter the Promised Land

He wants them to avoid Israel's mistakes:

1 Corinthians 10:6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

These are the mistakes:

God wanted Israel to nourish themselves so they would be fit to serve him. Instead they used their energy for pleasure, play.

God wanted them to avoid immoral acts. Instead they failed to resist doing evil, when tempted.

God wanted them to not provoke Him. Instead they accused Him of wanting to kill them in the wilderness through hunger and thirst, when He was actually teaching them to be loyal unconditionally, not complain when put through tests meant to strengthen them and test their loyalty.

If they passed the testing He would allow them to enter the Promised Land.

Was this necessary for the first century church? Wasn't baptism into Moses, certifying their suitability, justification, enough to save the person?

1. What is the equivalent of baptising into Moses for the first century church?

2. What is the Promised Land for the first century church?

 

[1John2:4]

No problem. Context is hard to read sometimes.

Yeah it's way different than face to face interaction with fellow believers "(

 

[Alithis]

Just as some would say the alternative "salvation by works" is also a doctrine of devils.

never meet any one who says that .. after all, when Paul speaks against salvation by works he is very specifically referring to blood sacrifices and circumcision .. the works of " the law ' .. i have never met any one who teaches such works for salvation

 

[Geralt]

salvation is by faith, not by membership. simpy means within the community of believers, there are also non-believers assuming they are believers as well. wheat and tares.

Israel left Egypt for better prospects, because God promised her that He would take them to a better place . The problem for Israel is that the better place required her to be loyal to God, be faithful, confusingly translated as believe. Faith in the ANE, Ancient Near East, is a word that is mostly used to mean loyalty . So God teaches Israel how to be loyal (drinking from the Rock, manna from Heaven, which is what He provided, not Moses, both represented by the word 'Christ', equaling unstinting loyalty) and tests her for comprehension.

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Paul uses the Exodus event to teach the first century church in Corinthians , how to be saved, enter the Promised Land

He wants them to avoid Israel's mistakes:

1 Corinthians 10:6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

These are the mistakes:

God wanted Israel to nourish themselves so they would be fit to serve him. Instead they used their energy for pleasure, play.

God wanted them to avoid immoral acts. Instead they failed to resist doing evil, when tempted.

God wanted them to not provoke Him. Instead they accused Him of wanting to kill them in the wilderness through hunger and thirst, when He was actually teaching them to be loyal unconditionally, not complain when put through tests meant to strengthen them and test their loyalty.

If they passed the testing He would allow them to enter the Promised Land.

Was this necessary for the first century church? Wasn't baptism into Moses, certifying their suitability, justification, enough to save the person?

1. What is the equivalent of baptising into Moses for the first century church?

2. What is the Promised Land for the first century church?

 

[Alithis]

So, God abandons you after a couple weeks of pornography and you fall from grace. So, he takes back the gift that his word says is irrevocable and I'm unsealed (permanent marking) and the holy spirit that was given to me leaves. Now, what exact work do I have to do to get back into his graces? Just stop the action altogether or say another special prayer? In your perfectionist doctrine there is no room for justification or sanctification. I agree that we all repent from sins, in the sense that we recognize them as what they are, but I don't believe Christ takes back what he gives and I don't believe that any true Christian does live in a constant state of sin for instance. However , as I said before, I don't believe once you are saved you instantly are cured from any addiction you ever had or that you don't have trouble with anger or controlling your mouth. You may come from a privileged upbringing and enjoyed the shading of a nice rock and a silver spoon (who knows?), but some of us have lived life and been to some pretty bad places. And I think it's pretty crappy that you want to demonize and send to hell everyone who's life is still being worked on, because they don't fit your doctrines of salvation and not Christ's. We can turn scripture or isolate specific passages all day, but his gift is irrevocable and we are sealed and hath salvation (present tense) (That means now btw). I never avoided your question about having a favorite sin, because I don't have one. Each of my sins disgusts me, sometimes to the point of depression and exacerbates other mental issues I already have. Like I said I have struggled with alcoholism in the past and smoking and none of those issues were cut and dry. They took work and that's real obiendience and freedom and strength. I know we wont see eye to eye on anything, but I wanted to reply to your last post, because I was busy all day and didn't have the chance. I'm also not afraid to admit that I've struggled with pornography addiction since I was about 9 that stemmed from multiple cases of sexual abuse. I'm doing extremely well now (though probably absolutely hell bound for even writing that sentence.). I've also had a long history of self-harm and 2 incidents of nearly completed, but interrupted suicides. (Make fun of those too please)

You also seem to flip flop on what lands you out of grace and what doesn't. As I said in my earlier post, your version of salvation makes the bibles seem insane, because it's incomplete. I don't know if you have kids, but when I bought mine one of those little cars that you can get into and use your feet to drive it came with a manual. This manual was clear and precise about exactly what I had to do to put it together (once i found the English directions). Now, I know you can quote a scripture here and a few over there, but you never use all the scripture. You always leave out the OSAS passages and don't want to look at them and can't justify why they exist, because in my estimation they far out weigh what I've found for arguments against OSAS (I wasn't always OSAS btw and no that doesn't mean that I was anti-osas until i found a really cool sin. Can't oversimplify things here). So, what I'm saying is that your Bible is going to save no one and can't fully explain it's most important doctrine clearly enough (like my technical manual). I have trouble reconciling that. I once got into a discussion with a perfectionist like yourself on youtube and he suffered from severe anger issues, guess he's hell bound lol. Anyway, that's really all I have to say.

if your saved , of you are set free ... because one who is saved from bondage is set free from bondage .. then why don't you live as one set free and stop living as one who is still in bondage ?

 

[Geralt]

the first step to error is to assume or surrender to the assumption that scripture conflict with scripture, basically scripture is errant, not inerrant. this is the way heresy creeps in the church, to emphasize verses that support an idea, and ignore others that doesnt. thus a claim is made by a sect or position claiming they submit or believes in the authority of scripture, but actually NOT the 'whole' of scripture.

osas/monergists does not have any conflict with the many verses pitted and put forth by those against it. it simply puts it in the right order.

I think it's easy to forget that our faith is a journey, with a destination and terrain to cross. I feel like the Bible is more like a map than the puzzle it's made to seem like here. So, when I read these kinds of discussions I can't help but think that we too often mistake the map for the terrain.

This is a good case in point. There are clearly statements in the text that conflict with one another. Does that mean that one is true and the other false? Of course not. But I find that there are places on my path where I walk with certainty in the light of my salvation, and others where the darkness of doubt threatens to overwhelm me. And the Bible invariably lights my way so that I do not grow comfortably sedentary in the one circumstance or hopelessly paralyzed in the other. The more familiar I am with the map, by the way, the easier these passages in life are to navigate.

Hope this helps,
Seth

 

[1John2:4]

So, God abandons you after a couple weeks of pornography and you fall from grace. So, he takes back the gift that his word says is irrevocable and I'm unsealed (permanent marking) and the holy spirit that was given to me leaves. Now, what exact work do I have to do to get back into his graces? Just stop the action altogether or say another special prayer? In your perfectionist doctrine there is no room for justification or sanctification. I agree that we all repent from sins, in the sense that we recognize them as what they are, but I don't believe Christ takes back what he gives and I don't believe that any true Christian does live in a constant state of sin for instance. However , as I said before, I don't believe once you are saved you instantly are cured from any addiction you ever had or that you don't have trouble with anger or controlling your mouth. You may come from a privileged upbringing and enjoyed the shading of a nice rock and a silver spoon (who knows?), but some of us have lived life and been to some pretty bad places. And I think it's pretty crappy that you want to demonize and send to hell everyone who's life is still being worked on, because they don't fit your doctrines of salvation and not Christ's. We can turn scripture or isolate specific passages all day, but his gift is irrevocable and we are sealed and hath salvation (present tense) (That means now btw). I never avoided your question about having a favorite sin, because I don't have one. Each of my sins disgusts me, sometimes to the point of depression and exacerbates other mental issues I already have. Like I said I have struggled with alcoholism in the past and smoking and none of those issues were cut and dry. They took work and that's real obiendience and freedom and strength. I know we wont see eye to eye on anything, but I wanted to reply to your last post, because I was busy all day and didn't have the chance. I'm also not afraid to admit that I've struggled with pornography addiction since I was about 9 that stemmed from multiple cases of sexual abuse. I'm doing extremely well now (though probably absolutely hell bound for even writing that sentence.). I've also had a long history of self-harm and 2 incidents of nearly completed, but interrupted suicides. (Make fun of those too please)

You also seem to flip flop on what lands you out of grace and what doesn't. As I said in my earlier post, your version of salvation makes the bibles seem insane, because it's incomplete. I don't know if you have kids, but when I bought mine one of those little cars that you can get into and use your feet to drive it came with a manual. This manual was clear and precise about exactly what I had to do to put it together (once i found the English directions). Now, I know you can quote a scripture here and a few over there, but you never use all the scripture. You always leave out the OSAS passages and don't want to look at them and can't justify why they exist, because in my estimation they far out weigh what I've found for arguments against OSAS (I wasn't always OSAS btw and no that doesn't mean that I was anti-osas until i found a really cool sin. Can't oversimplify things here). So, what I'm saying is that your Bible is going to save no one and can't fully explain it's most important doctrine clearly enough (like my technical manual). I have trouble reconciling that. I once got into a discussion with a perfectionist like yourself on youtube and he suffered from severe anger issues, guess he's hell bound lol. Anyway, that's really all I have to say.

It's amazing that you poured out your heart. I can sympathise with you, I too was a drug addict, Yeshua(Jesus) rescued me out of that bondage but I clung to alcohol for years later. I was such a huge hypocracte drank like a fish all week and went to church and acted like I was all holy. I was always sorry and broken about this but I never truly repented until 2 years ago. I am finally free of that bondage! God offered me so much Grace to overcome. And you are absolutely right it was, and still is work. I still have temptation but I choose life. As long as we are not dead He gives opportunity to repent. No one said walking in His way is easy but if we truly have a heart to please Him and do His good works He will have compassion. Abraham followed God and there are many accounts of him slipping up, at 99 years old he was circumsised and told by God to be perfect. The grace that He has on Abraham is the same grace He has for us. That does not mean we willfully disobey that His grace will abound. If we truly have a humble spirit and bring our sin before Yeshua and turn from it turn to God we will be covered. If we then choose to put ourselves back under that bondage and turn away from God that is when scary verses like Hebrews 10:26 and Matthew 7:21 happen. As I understand it we are to overcome and endure til the end. Thanks again for sharing your heart.

PS if you want to edit my grammatical errors feel free, I'm sure there are plenty

 

[Alithis]

It's amazing that you poured out your heart. I can sympathise with you, I too was a drug addict, Yeshua(Jesus) rescued me out of that bondage but I clung to alcohol for years later. I was such a huge hypocracte drank like a fish all week and went to church and acted like I was all holy. I was always sorry and broken about this but I never truly repented until 2 years ago. I am finally free of that bondage! God offered me so much Grace to overcome. And you are absolutely right it was, and still is work. I still have temptation but I choose life. As long as we are not dead He gives opportunity to repent. No one said walking in His way is easy but if we truly have a heart to please Him and do His good works He will have compassion. Abraham followed God and there are many accounts of him slipping up, at 99 years old he was circumsised and told by God to be perfect. The grace that He has on Abraham is the same grace He has for us. That does not mean we willfully disobey that His grace will abound. If we truly have a humble spirit and bring our sin before Yeshua and turn from it turn to God we will be covered. If we then choose to put ourselves back under that bondage and turn away from God that is when scary verses like Hebrews 10:26 and Matthew 7:21 happen. As I understand it we are to overcome and endure til the end. Thanks again for sharing your heart.

PS if you want to edit my grammatical errors feel free, I'm sure there are plenty

I too was a drug addict in sin,porn addict in sin ..and god brought me to repentance.he works in us ,,Godly repentance.And he saved me out of my sin. I dont do them any more .
You use the term ..if we have a heart to please him.. / if we dont we are not yet saved, for he gives us a new heart with his law written on it.he makes us a new creation in jesus.the old is passed away.
So not only do we not go back to our sin..we do not desire to. We love god more and his nature in us desires to do only rightousness ,never does his nature in us desire to sin.
This is why its written ..if we walk in the spirit..(his nature) we will not fullfill the evil desire iof the flesh.
Now having this salvation by faith,according to his own word we must endure in that faith untill the end.for if we cast off faith that he has set us free and thus are under no complusion to sin beyond our own will..and return to sin,making again our master..we will perish in it.
As you say,one cannot devide scripture from scripture to validate an opinion..the scripture absolutley states both that our salvation is sure,and it equally states that security is conditional on obedience ,faithfulness.perserverence and endurance untill we recieve that which we have faith in christ for ..salvation from the judgment to come..which we have by faith now.and then get..at his coming.
And when he comes then and only then will we actually be saved recieving the end result of our faith in him.And living faith in him that has no outward working of rightousness does not exist.
So a person can say they have faith in Jesus to save them all thier life..but if they Do not ,by faith,do the righteousness of God in obedience to him out of love for him.then confession is shown to be false and they will not recieve what they do not have faith for.
Some say theycannot stop a certain sin,but what they are saying is ,they dot have faith that Jesus can do what he came todo,save us from our sin.take that action away from us so we do not doit any more.and because they show, by continuing to practice thier sin ,that they dont believe jesus has done what he promised ,they dont enter into the promise and perish in the wilderness.
Old testiment is written for our example...
A million people came up out of egypt... Delivered by the lambs blood,came through the waters of baptism ... And only 2 of them went over the jordan. The rest perished through unbelief.

 

[Wordkeeper]

salvation is by faith, not by membership. simpy means within the community of believers, there are also non-believers assuming they are believers as well. wheat and tares.

1. What is the equivalent of baptising into Moses for the first century church?

2. What is the Promised Land for the first century church?

 

[bbbbbbb]

1. What is the equivalent of baptising into Moses for the first century church?

2. What is the Promised Land for the first century church?

Must there be an equivalent for these things if they are not mentioned in the Bible as such?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Must there be an equivalent for these things if they are not mentioned in the Bible as such?

Well it would be disingenious for Paul to use the Exodus event if there was no parallel, wouldn't it?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well it would be disingenious for Paul to use the Exodus event if there was no parallel, wouldn't it?

It would be if, in fact, that is what he did. However, this is what he wrote -

1 Corinthians 10:6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

So, I do not see an implication in this passage about a Promised Land or baptism, do you? It would be like speculating on the Christian equivalent of the two tablets of stone used for the Ten Commandments based on this reference.

 

[farout]

Thank you for taking time both to welcome me and to respond to me.

I have reread YS-Jeff's post and I don't think I see quite the stark distinction that he makes. I don't think I have met people quite like the first group he mentions. I see that you also see some distinction, namely those who probably aren't saved.

I am familiar with the concept of failing to forgive ourselves. I have heard it preached and also applied it to myself. I would be interested in hearing a scriptural basis for it. Do you have any example?

Peter, when he denied the Lord here times. He was deeply ashamed, I think he moght have needed the Lord to restore him back in the group. Does that work?

 

[Wordkeeper]

It would be if, in fact, that is what he did. However, this is what he wrote -

1 Corinthians 10:6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

So, I do not see an implication in this passage about a Promised Land or baptism, do you? It would be like speculating on the Christian equivalent of the two tablets of stone used for the Ten Commandments based on this reference.

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.


Thanks for replying.

Would you agree that Paul said the Exodus event was used as an example, as it was a useful analogy?

1 Corinthians 10:6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.

Would you agree that Paul is saying that baptism didn't help Israel?

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

And here isn't Paul warning the church not to similarly be presumptuous and be overconfident of their salvation?

1 Corinthians 10: 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I believe in eternal security, but I have been exploring the other side.

I'm particularly interested in the Lutheran view. From what I've gathered, Lutherans believe that there are temporary believers and a believer can fall from grace. Yet, they also say that true believers will persevere to the end.

Is this a fair assessment of the Lutheran view? How does it differ from the Arminian and Calvinist perspectives?

 

[Seth Rhinehart]

The first step to error is being human.

Don't you find it troubling, from your perspective, that Jesus didn't write any books while he was on Earth? If the point of life is an academic study of scripture, then it seems like our Saviour might have put pen to paper.

On the other hand, doesn't it strike you as telling that Jesus was accused of heresy by folk (the Pharisees) with your mindset, and whose lives were devoted entirely to an academic study of scripture?