Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Albion]

FWIW, no, neither of those observations seems persuasive.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

So, God abandons you after a couple weeks of pornography and you fall from grace. So, he takes back the gift that his word says is irrevocable and I'm unsealed (permanent marking) and the holy spirit that was given to me leaves. Now, what exact work do I have to do to get back into his graces? Just stop the action altogether or say another special prayer? In your perfectionist doctrine there is no room for justification or sanctification. I agree that we all repent from sins, in the sense that we recognize them as what they are, but I don't believe Christ takes back what he gives and I don't believe that any true Christian does live in a constant state of sin for instance. However , as I said before, I don't believe once you are saved you instantly are cured from any addiction you ever had or that you don't have trouble with anger or controlling your mouth. You may come from a privileged upbringing and enjoyed the shading of a nice rock and a silver spoon (who knows?), but some of us have lived life and been to some pretty bad places. And I think it's pretty crappy that you want to demonize and send to hell everyone who's life is still being worked on, because they don't fit your doctrines of salvation and not Christ's. We can turn scripture or isolate specific passages all day, but his gift is irrevocable and we are sealed and hath salvation (present tense) (That means now btw). I never avoided your question about having a favorite sin, because I don't have one. Each of my sins disgusts me, sometimes to the point of depression and exacerbates other mental issues I already have. Like I said I have struggled with alcoholism in the past and smoking and none of those issues were cut and dry. They took work and that's real obiendience and freedom and strength. I know we wont see eye to eye on anything, but I wanted to reply to your last post, because I was busy all day and didn't have the chance. I'm also not afraid to admit that I've struggled with pornography addiction since I was about 9 that stemmed from multiple cases of sexual abuse. I'm doing extremely well now (though probably absolutely hell bound for even writing that sentence.). I've also had a long history of self-harm and 2 incidents of nearly completed, but interrupted suicides. (Make fun of those too please)

You also seem to flip flop on what lands you out of grace and what doesn't. As I said in my earlier post, your version of salvation makes the bibles seem insane, because it's incomplete. I don't know if you have kids, but when I bought mine one of those little cars that you can get into and use your feet to drive it came with a manual. This manual was clear and precise about exactly what I had to do to put it together (once i found the English directions). Now, I know you can quote a scripture here and a few over there, but you never use all the scripture. You always leave out the OSAS passages and don't want to look at them and can't justify why they exist, because in my estimation they far out weigh what I've found for arguments against OSAS (I wasn't always OSAS btw and no that doesn't mean that I was anti-osas until i found a really cool sin. Can't oversimplify things here). So, what I'm saying is that your Bible is going to save no one and can't fully explain it's most important doctrine clearly enough (like my technical manual). I have trouble reconciling that. I once got into a discussion with a perfectionist like yourself on youtube and he suffered from severe anger issues, guess he's hell bound lol. Anyway, that's really all I have to say.

God does not abandon the Saint because they backslide . People can consider themselves as abandoning God when they wander off into the temptations of the world, but God has never evicted the holy spirit from them if they were saved in the first place and were truly reborn in the grace of God through faith.

There are those that are nominal Christians, please know. Those are people who call themselves Christian but they are not truly one with Christ and his covenant. It is a bit like that Pascal's wager wherein they claim the name of Christ thinking if the testament is true they'll be saved from the fate of Hell. But meanwhile, nothing in them has changed, been reborn from the living death of living in their sins. They still party, they still gamble, they still enjoy porn, they allow themselves to be consumed by the worlds temptations. Thinking they're saved from the punishment sinners unrepentant and unredeemed shall face. But they're wrong.

That's why the passages in scriptures say God knew us before the womb. He calls those whom his grace will save to him, to the message of the cross and Christ Jesus. It isn't what some claim, that God picks who he'll save and who he'll send to Hell.
Rather , God being all knowing would certainly know for whom the message of salvation would resonate. He would know those for whom the call to repent would speak to and call to his word. It doesn't mean he's pulling strings to make that happen. It means he knows who are sincere and who are the nominal.

God doesn't turn his back on you if you sin while a Christian. He doesn't count that sin against you as was the case when you were dead in your sin with no knowledge of redemption and the covenant of rebirth. Your sins are forgiven you , when you transgress the laws of God in behaviors, the moment they occur. Repentance, and/or confession of those to God, are for your heart sake. Not for your soul sake, like that pastor I mentioned imparted. Confess every sin always or you'll go to Hell.
It is for your release of the guilt you feel for having done something you believe would disappoint God with your behavior. But that doesn't mean he turns his back on you, strips you of his grace and revokes your salvation.
That would contradict what Jesus said when he told us all come to him by the calling of the Father. And those whom the Father gives Jesus will never cast you out. And further, no one can take you from his hand.

Trust Jesus at his word. Not teachings that corrupt his word so as to make the Saints of God fear eternal security is not eternal. God loves you forever.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

PS if you want to edit my grammatical errors feel free, I'm sure there are plenty

Lol. I know how you feel. Between autocorrect and fat fingers on a tiny cell phone screen, and of course my woefully inadiquate spelling, i gave up a long time ago.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I think your incorrect. But no matter how much proof I give, no matter how much scripture I gave, You have given none. Please support you position with Scripture, then we can dialogue. Our opinions are just that.

I first want to say thank you for your service to the Lord and your faithful work in ministry. As far scripture that supports my position. I have provided several in this thread. In order to keep this post short i will only provide a couple. It is a copy/paste and i will provide a link. Only to show you that there is a sound argument against osas. That is why Augustine's position on single predestination was rejected by the Council of Nicea and it is why the RC and EO reject it.

"Most people who believe the above teaching once saved always saved will quote the following Bible verse as proof: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38, 39.

Now this is a wonderful Bible promise that God has given us and it should inspire us all. But does it say once a person is born again, it is impossible for him to lose his way and be lost? In fact, is this verse talking about salvation or eternal life at all? No, this verse is clearly talking about God's unconditional love towards man, not unconditional salvation. Salvation is conditional! You might also notice that the word "sin" was not included in the list of things which are unable to separate us from the love of God.

If we continue in sin, after we have asked Jesus to be our personal Savior, are we really in a saved relationship, are we converted? "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/oncesave.htm

 

[SeventyOne]

never meet any one who says that .. after all, when Paul speaks against salvation by works he is very specifically referring to blood sacrifices and circumcision .. the works of " the law ' .. i have never met any one who teaches such works for salvation

Sure you have. It usually comes across using such language as saying salvation is lost if we don't "follow him", or if we "fall away", or if we "fall into sin", and all the different variants thereof.

Every version of where we do something to be unsaved by not being "christian enough" is salvation by works. And as it happens, a false gospel.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Can a true Christian sin or not?

https://carm.org/can-true-christian-sin
Conclusion

There is no contradiction. What is happening is that John is saying that the one who is born again does not habitually abide in sin. He may fall into it, but he does not practice it as a lifestyle. The nuances of the Greek language are not carried over to the English, but when we understand what is happening we then see there is no problem.


Finally, any Christian who would say that he does not sin anymore fails to agree with 1 John 1:8 which says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." He would then be self-decieved.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

if your saved , of you are set free ... because one who is saved from bondage is set free from bondage .. then why don't you live as one set free and stop living as one who is still in bondage ?

Your beliefs and even your replies have become more underwhelming with continuing scrutiny. I guess that's really all we have to say to each other on the issue. Disappointing.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Again what can we liken the Kingdom of God to?

As always the text will only skim through the full meaning of the message, because it's listeners were already well grounded in its background, had a pre understanding we do not have access to.

Which stretches right back to Genesis.

People in the Ancient Near East would immediately recognize the first three chapters of Genesis as, not as a description of the origins of creation, but as the building of a temple. That is the document format in which temple building is described. Ancient texts of the religions of that time follow this format. The last step in the building is the installation of the image of the deity in whose honour the temple is constructed, reflecting, informing visitors about his identity . Finally, God takes up residence, just as anyone would take up residence of a house they build. Even that example is a bit weak. Better still is the idea of a person who builds a ship or a carriage and then USES it, saving himself from walking or swimming. This becomes obvious when we realise that God doesn't need rest. It's just the old way of saying God commissioned, operationalized creation, setting in motion a system that did exactly what He designed it to do.

It follows then that the rest that God gives men is from doing what their spirit informs them they were created to do, be blessings to the world, but are unable to do, because of the unsubdued body they are attached to. As Paul says, it is not I who sin, but sin in me.

I repeat, all the promises made to God's people must be viewed in the context of the promise made to Abraham.

Reaching the Promised Land is the outward manifestation of what happens when God's people are exposed to His training and disciplining (drinking from the Rock, Christ) and avoid disloyalty and own the task, share God's interest in it, have a circumcised heart.

Even David, in Psalms 95 said there remained a Sabbath rest to be entered. Remember, Israel has already lived in the physical Promised Land for quite some time. Yet David reminds Israel of the rest each one of God's people must enter.

Joshua could not bring them into that rest. Only God could. The same way He brought them closer and closer to the physical rest. By works and words , miracles and revelations. First through Moses, who convinced Israel that God's presence was with him, so that they prised themselves out of the toxic security of Egypt, then through Joshua, when Moses did not glorify that Presence. The first century church would also be brought out of the compromised security of the world by the word Jesus speaks to them, because He glorified God by saying all that he did could not be credited to him but to God. No one is going to listen to the words or be impressed by the deeds of men the way they would by those of God. That's only logical.

Towards justification, cleaning by bathing.

Towards sanctification, by foot washing.

These meanings can be seen in the text? Yes, with God's help. I used to say with the help of the Holy Spirit, but it sounded so boastful, but really it's an admission of weakness. I hope my alternate choice of words avoid this impression.


Was Judas clean? Nope. But that's another topic.

Was Peter clean, justified? He responded correctly to the word God spoke through Jesus, so yes. Was Peter sanctified? Not yet. Foot washing, more words and works, would do that. They would deal with different aspects of loyalty: complaining, immorality, self preservation, sin bearing through love. Great topics, each deserving it's own discussion.

That's the modus operandi. Words and works manifested were so apparently having its origin in God that Nicodemus confessed God was with Jesus. This is how the mind is renewed. Confirmation that the source of the signs and words of knowledge was God, therefore reliable, and therefore worthy of placing confidence on. Towards becoming more and more loyal. Israel knew God was present in the works they saw, but it did not move them to be loyal:

Hebrews 3:9“There your fathers tested me and tried me, and they saw my works for forty years.

Ditto Jerusalem:

Matthew 11: 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

This is how the heart ( Hebraism for mind) is circumcised, made sensitive to God, responsive to His teachings. Through conviction, changing of mind, 'meta noia', vaguely translated as 'repent'.

The writer of Hebrews addresses the same issue. He recognises that there is a 'Today' in every believer's life.

Hebrews 4: 1Therefore we must be wary that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For we had good news proclaimed to us just as they did. But the message they heard did them no good, since they did not join in with those who heard it in faith. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter my rest!’” And yet God’s works were accomplished from the foundation of the world. 4For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,” 5but to repeat the text cited earlier: “They will never enter my rest!” 6Therefore it remains for some to enter it, yet those to whom it was previously proclaimed did not enter because of disobedience.7So God again ordains a certain day, “Today,” speaking through David after so long a time, as in the words quoted before, “O, that today you would listen as he speaks! Do not harden your hearts.” 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken afterward about another day.9Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God. 10For the one who enters God’s rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his own works. 11Thus we must make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

 

[SeventyOne]

If we continue in sin, after we have asked Jesus to be our personal Savior, are we really in a saved relationship, are we converted? "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

Don't you see your error here?

You set it up by defining our action as, "after we have asked Jesus to be our personal Savior". The action being done here is repenting.

Then you quote a verse with a completely different action, "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth", and then equate them together as if they were the same thing. They are not.

Mere knowledge of the truth cannot save. Even the Devil and his minions know the truth.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Don't you see your error here?

You set it up by defining our action as, "after we have asked Jesus to be our personal Savior". The action being done here is repenting.

Then you quote a verse with a completely different action, "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth", and then equate them together as if they were the same thing. They are not.

Mere knowledge of the truth cannot save. Even the Devil and his minions know the truth.

Not to mention that the same verse that he is quoting says the if it were even possible to fall away, a person who has done so would not be able to be saved again. Every works/perfectionist leaves that part out. All a part of there pick and choose fill in the blank philosophy.

 

[Alithis]

Sure you have. It usually comes across using such language as saying salvation is lost if we don't "follow him", or if we "fall away", or if we "fall into sin", and all the different variants thereof.

Every version of where we do something to be unsaved by not being "christian enough" is salvation by works. And as it happens, a false gospel.

And the scriptueyou base that on is....? Where does scripture define Doing rightousness as "working to earn salvation ?" john states that those who do not practice rightousness(practice is an action)are not of god..he then states those that continue to practice sin (practice is an action) are of the devil.- yup thats written.
Your trying to say some promot works to obtain salvation. But the word of God states slavation is already available ..jesus is made abaiable before i was born. The scripture then instructs us how to obtain what is feely made available.
If we disobey those instructons .we will not obtain the promise.. If we obey those instructions abide in them and endure in them to the end ,we will recive the promise. This is why he says well done good and faithful servant... Not well done rebellious and disobedient servant.

 

[Alithis]

Your beliefs and even your replies have become more underwhelming with continuing scrutiny. I guess that's really all we have to say to each other on the issue. Disappointing.

@DoubtfulSalvation

So are you saying you do not believe Jesus came to set you free from your sin ?are you saying that it is a false doctrine to teach that Jesus came to take away our sin (as opposed to leaving us as slaves serving sin which brings death)

 

[Alithis]

Not to mention that the same verse that he is quoting says the if it were even possible to fall away, a person who has done so would not be able to be saved again. Every works/perfectionist leaves that part out. All a part of there pick and choose fill in the blank philosophy.

Are you implying these scriptures do not exist ?
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: - Hebrews 6

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Just felt inspired to add this to the discussion since it doesn't appear to have been mentioned as yet.
Romans 8:1
Reading all of the author of Romans in that chapter is good in order to get the context. However, I believe verse 1 helps in this moment to reassure those who may be confused by the discussion thus far and due to the differing perspectives, including as has been mentioned numerous times, the wrong or false teachings or understandings related to eternal salvation.

 

[Alithis]

Don't you see your error here?

You set it up by defining our action as, "after we have asked Jesus to be our personal Savior". The action being done here is repenting.

Then you quote a verse with a completely different action, "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth", and then equate them together as if they were the same thing. They are not.

Mere knowledge of the truth cannot save. Even the Devil and his minions know the truth.

If you are still practicing the sin..youhave not yet repented of it

 

[Alithis]

Just felt inspired to add this to the discussion since it doesn't appear to have been mentioned as yet.
Romans 8:1
Reading all of the author of Romans in that chapter is good in order to get the context. However, I believe verse 1 helps in this moment to reassure those who may be confused by the discussion thus far and due to the differing perspectives, including as has been mentioned numerous times, the wrong or false teachings or understandings related to eternal salvation.

Sadly its not scripture..it is a partial sentance and presenting it itas a partial sentance makes it a pat truth and we know a part truth can promote a part lie.
Lets give it more referencable scope...
--
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. - Romans 8:1-4
Aah now we see a conditional state of living by faith that acompanies the text.and so we see the textdoes not apply to all who claim faith.but those who live on obedience to the holy spirit.it does not apply to those who live according to the flesh...

Just adding the balance.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Sadly its not scripture..it is a partial sentance and presenting it itas a partial sentance makes it a pat truth and we know a part truth can promote a part lie.

Well, that's why I stated to read Romans 8 in context so that you wouldn't have to attempt to call the Roman writer a liar because you missed that part of my post in order to criticize without cause.

And John 3:18 is scripture and also comports with Jesus' teachings. Since you're now going so far as to attempt to impugn the author of Romans as not writing scripture.

Editing to add this so you don't miss this in my post as well:

John 3:18
New International Version
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

And just for the sake of souls here.

Cross References
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God--

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.

1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.

1 John 4:9
This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.

1 John 5:10
Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony God has given about His Son.
Treasury of Scripture
He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes …

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on …

John 6:40,47 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees …

John 20:31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, …

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through …

Romans 8:1,34 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ …

1 John 5:12 He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Sadly its not scripture..it is a partial sentance and presenting it itas a partial sentance makes it a pat truth and we know a part truth can promote a part lie.
Lets give it more referencable scope...
--
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. - Romans 8:1-4
Aah now we see a conditional state of living by faith that acompanies the text.and so we see the textdoes not apply to all who claim faith.but those who live on obedience to the holy spirit.it does not apply to those who live according to the flesh...

Just adding the balance.

I hope you find a church you can trust to educate you as to what it means to be in Christ.
Christians are indwelt with the holy spirit. The text is talking about the difference between those who are nominal christians and those who are indwelt and are in Christ .

I hope you can find the difference with strong study of the Bible. As it is, you have no understanding of the NT and no place in hoping to lead people when you don't know the passages and how they apply yourself.

 

[Alithis]

I hope you find a church you can trust to educate you as to what it means to be in Christ.
Christians are indwelt with the holy spirit. The text is talking about the difference between those who are nominal christians and those who are indwelt and are in Christ .

I hope you can find the difference with strong study of the Bible. As it is, you have no understanding of the NT and no place in hoping to lead people when you don't know the passages and how they apply yourself.

Lol so many wrongful assumptions in this post it would take another thread to adress them all.
You identify as nazerene.. Do you know their statment of beliefs ?
"We believe that the finally impenitent are hopelessly and eternally lost."
A man made organization nicknamed "church" is not the source of truth..Jesus is by his holy Spirit. And He,the holy spirit will lead you into all truth..
Why is it everyone i meet that is out there,healing the sick,preaching the gospel,driving out devils,baptising in his name and making more deciples..do not adhere to osas .and those i meet who attend thier christion sunday clubs but do not go out and do the above things..argue for osas.
Interesting observing the days of my youthfullness in others.
What i share now i did not always share,i once shared more liberally..but that was before i was delivered from religios spirits and bought to godly repentance and began to obey the Gospel and do the will of God by his spirit in me willing it to be so. God is never the dictator.he awaits our willful obedience.