Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

No, you don't ignore Paul. But you understand that Paul is dependent upon Jesus, never the reverse, and you understand that Jesus is the one who gives commandments.

And you understand that Paul does not completely address or deal with all of Jesus' commandments, but is easily misunderstand to have obviated the commandments that he doesn't mention.

If you don't fully understand the law of Jesus, you make a far graver mistake than not knowing Paul, because the law of Jesus is the law by which you will be judged. And Jesus set the terms for forgiveness. Paul is easily read to mean that you're already forgiven everything, but that is not true. Jesus makes it clear what you have to do. And Jesus is God.

The born again christian has the applicable law written on their mind and placed on their heart. That's the new covenant.

I have been to churches of various denominations for over fifty years. You learn much from observation in t hat time. The more earnest people are as to living under the law, the less I have found they reflect in their lives what Christ termed the higher points of the law.
This is no better borne out than by the people who most earnestly lived under the law when Jesus walked this earth. They neglected the love of God luke11:41

 

[stuart lawrence]

No Paul was not so chosen. John was. John walked with Jesus, wrote a Gospel, outlived them all, was the Apostle Jesus loved, and was taken up into Heaven and dictated the final revelation.

Paul is the least of the apostles.

I can assure you, any minister of any church who boldly and fully preached the message given to Paul would find his church crammed full of people.
People who sadly maybe in despair but feel God cannot help them, so haven't turned to Him

 

[ToBeLoved]

To be honest with you, I find that people who exalt Paul completely throw out the various requirements and commandments of Jesus, treat them as unimportant, and believe foolish things like "One Saved, Always Saved", which Jesus clearly says is wrong.

It's too bad you do not believe OSAS.

How could Jesus redeem us from the Law and make us righteous and then "take away" His righteousness?

Why would Christ give it and take it away? What would be the purpose, and do not tell me Jesus can take it away if He wants too, because He could, but Jesus makes sense and does not do things willy-nilly.

Everything God does has purpose.

I would also ask you, why would Jesus seal us in the New Covenant with the Holy Spirit, God Himself and then what? Christ would have to remove the seal, the Holy Spirit too. If Jesus broke the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit would go too. God's word written on our hearts. Gone. EVERYTHING the NEw Covenant gave us would be gone.

So then that would make Christ a liar. "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU"

A LIE.

God's gifts are irrevocable. ANOTHER LIE.

If God would take away His righteousness from us what would it be for? You have said it is NOT for breaking Torah or Jesus commands, so what would it be for doing?

YOu are questioning the entire perfection of Christ. Breaking Covenants? God does not break covenants. Does your God? Break covenants, lie?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The born again christian has the applicable law written on their mind and placed on their heart. That's the new covenant.

I have been to churches of various denominations for over fifty years. You learn much from observation in t hat time. The more earnest people are as to living under the law, the less I have found they reflect in their lives what Christ termed the higher points of the law.
This is no better borne out than by the people who most earnestly lived under the law when Jesus walked this earth. They neglected the love of God luke11:41

Preach my brother!

Christ's says the two most important commandments, Love God and Love others.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul said the offence of the cross was not preaching law.
Why did he say that?

People like to feel they have attained heaven by being good enough. The flesh likes to boast. People are proud, they like to believe they have striven better than others so they deserve to get to heaven.
Remove a law of righteousness and boasting is cut out.

Hence not preaching law, for many is the true offence of the cross

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why did Paul state the offence of the cross is not preaching law?
Gal5:11

“Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised--as some say I do--why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended” (Galatians 5:11 NLT).

Circumcision is of the Old Covenant Law, not the New Covenant Law.

...

 

[ToBeLoved]

“Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised--as some say I do--why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended” (Galatians 5:11 NLT).

Circumcision is of the Old Covenant Law, not the New Covenant Law.

...

Paul said "IF I WERE STILL". Past tense. Not current tense.

 

[stuart lawrence]

“Dear brothers and sisters, if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised--as some say I do--why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended” (Galatians 5:11 NLT).

Circumcision is of the Old Covenant Law, not the New Covenant Law.

...

You have to understand beyond just reading the letter.
Why was Christ persecuted by religious people? He was supposedly ignoring the law

One of the reasons Steven was arrested by religious people? He was supposedly ignoring the law

When Paul states circumcision I gal5:11 he means circumcision/ie law

Why is not preaching law the true offence of the cross?

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law....phil3:9

Most want a righteousness of their own, the alternative is to give God all the glory. Only those who know they have no righteousness of their own can love God as He wants them to love him. For they are the ones most grateful for what Christ truly achieved at Calvary

 

[ToBeLoved]

Stop spending time on the Old Testament Law, because it is useless to you. Instead, read carefully the words of Jesus - JUST Jesus

Then you do not understand that the Old Testament law is the schoolmaster, as God's Word calls the law.

Galatians 3:23-29
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Without the law, one would not be accountable for sin.

Romans 5:13
13 For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Without the law, no one would ever have been accountable to their sin. God told them what was sin in the law.

Without the law, all men would not realize they sinned, because the law would not be defined. Now we clearly know that we all failed to keep the law. If we had not failed to keep the law, we would NOT need Christ.

No one needs a Savior that DID NOT sin.

Don't discount the law. But the law has to be in the perspective that Jesus fulfilled the law, fully and completely, overcoming SIN.

New High Priest, new law, New Covenant.

Hebrews 7:12
12 For when the priesthood is changed, the Law must be changed as well.

New law is the two commandements Jesus left us with. The New Covenant makes the Old Covenant obsolete for those under Christ.

Hebrews 8:13
13 In speaking of a new covenant,” He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 

[John Hyperspace]

And I'll have to respond, you didn't read the post carefully. Once you do so, and regather your thoughts, let me know and I'll be happy to respond further.

All you have to do is clarify what you meant because clearly I'm not understanding what you meant. Did you not say you need people who performed the actions suggested in the hypothetical?

I take it you saw my answer? That people that do those things don't love others, and aren't saved to begin with? Thus the hypothetical is flawed in assuming these people are saved to begin with.

 

[HatGuy]

Posted twice. Deleted this one.

 

[HatGuy]

I've tried my best to read as many replies as I could here before commenting. I haven't seen what I'm about to say up to now.

I'm a recent convert from OSAS. It happened quite by accident. I began to have a hunch that one cannot lose their salvation by sin, but can by a complete loss of faith. When I discovered that's what classical Arminianism often teaches, it kind of clinched it for me. I found that thinking this way was far healthier for my faith, and keeps salvation about faith and not about works. Hence the problem with sneaking in works through the back door is eliminated.

I believed in OSAS for many years but really couldn't reconcile the difficult scriptures like Hebrews 6 with it. I know pretty much most of the good OSAS views on this scripture, but somehow it just never seemed right...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul said "IF I WERE STILL". Past tense. Not current tense.

Yes. I said circumcision is of the Old Testament (which is of the past). So your point is?


...

 

[Kenny'sID]

All you have to do is clarify what you meant because clearly I'm not understanding what you meant. Did you not say you need people who performed the actions suggested in the hypothetical?

I take it you saw my answer? That people that do those things don't love others, and aren't saved to begin with? Thus the hypothetical is flawed in assuming these people are saved to begin with.

Yes I could have just explained but I aked you to reread and hopefully catch on to what you missed so I wouldn't have to spend the time explaining as the slow typer I am. Not that I mind it's just that, it may have been avoidable, maybe not.

Without going back and reading my post, I believe I said I know people that are "close enough" to the criteria described in the hypothetical. IOW, no not murderers and such but hard core perpetual sinners. And for the purpose of this discussion, it doesn't matter if they are murderers or just fornicators/thieves, or whatever, as they are all sins in the big 10 category. Hope I cleared that part up and if there are still misunderstandings, by either of us, let me know, please, John.

One major point is, the OSAS definitely has people claiming they can do whatever they want, and still be saved. No I didn't see your post on "they were never saved to begin with", and I'm not positive this is the thread that I mentioned that someone was going to claim that, they always do, when the fact is, we don't know if they were never saved to begin with or not...that claim just cannot be made by us, and that is simply not a catch all to cover this problem that always arises when OSAS is discussed. The Prodigal son was saved, then he wasn't, then he was again. But same thing there...OSASr's have this all worked out, and likely have come up with an explanation for any scripture that clearly opposes their theology.

People have been working on this deception for a long time now, and no, I don't think they know it's a deception. however, I've never seen the explanations pan out. The explaining away of the clear Sheep and Goats scripture, always amazes me, and regardless of the scripture trying to be explained away, the same individual explanations are repeated time and time again, making me think this stuff is learned from others and not from the heart.

And I meant to add, even "if" it were true, hands down, "they were never saved to begin with" that doesn't negate the fact the OSAS teaching has them believing they are, because it teaches they CAN do as they want and still get to heaven, and if these people that are explained as "aren't saved to begin with", think they are saved, they have no reason to buckle down and ever get saved, because they already are in their minds....dangerous, very dangerous.

Let me make it clear that is an over all thought/opinion on OSAS, and singles out no individual or group of individuals on this board or elswhere. I've felt this way before I even knew CF existed. Also, there is no malicious intent whatsoever, but quit the opposite. Describing what is a fact or even what I feel is fact can be seen as malicious if it's against something one doesn't believe, and quite the opposite if one agrees. Wish I didn't have to go through this disclaimer at times, but I do..

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes I could have just explained but I aked you to reread and hopefully catch on to what you missed so I wouldn't have to spend the time explaining as the slow typer I am. Not that I mind it's just that, it may have been avoidable, maybe not.

Without going back and reading my post, I believe I said I know people that are "close enough" to the criteria described in the hypothetical. IOW, no not murderers and such but hard core perpetual sinners. And for the purpose of this discussion, it doesn't matter if they are murderers or just fornicators/thieves, or whatever, as they are all sins in the big 10 category. Hope I cleared that part up and if there are still misunderstandings, by either of us, let me know, please, John.

One major point is, the OSAS definitely has people claiming they can do whatever they want, and still be saved. No I didn't see your post on "they were never saved to begin with", and I'm not positive this is the thread that I mentioned that someone was going to claim that, they always do, when the fact is, we don't know if they were never saved to begin with or not...that claim just cannot be made by us, and that is simply not a catch all to cover this problem that always arises when OSAS is discussed. The Prodigal son was saved, then he wasn't, then he was again. But same thing there...OSASr's have this all worked out, and likely have come up with an explanation for any scripture that clearly opposes their theology.

People have been working on this deception for a long time now, and no, I don't think they know it's a deception. however, I've never seen the explanations pan out. The explaining away of the clear Sheep and Goats scripture, always amazes me, and regardless of the scripture trying to be explained away, the same individual explanations are repeated time and time again, making me think this stuff is learned from others and not from the heart.

And I meant to add, even "if" it were true, hands down, "they were never saved to begin with" that doesn't negate the fact the OSAS teaching has them believing they are, because it teaches they CAN do as they want and still get to heaven, and if these people that are explained as "aren't saved to begin with", think they are saved, they have no reason to buckle down and ever get saved, because they already are in their minds....dangerous, very dangerous.

Let me make it clear that is an over all thought/opinion on OSAS, and singles out no individual or group of individuals on this board or elswhere. I've felt this way before I even knew CF existed. Also, there is no malicious intent whatsoever, but quit the opposite. Describing what is a fact or even what I feel is fact can be seen as malicious if it's against something one doesn't believe, and quite the opposite if one agrees. Wish I didn't have to go through this disclaimer at times, but I do..

Yep, if you are a murderer, fornicator, thief you sin in the BIG TEN category.
Lets go a bit further.
If you have impure thoughts you sin in the BIG TEN category.
if you get angry with your brother you are in danger of the fires of hell.
Lets keep the holy, righteous, and perfect law of God at its pristine level.

 

[stuart lawrence]

.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yep, if you are a murderer, fornicator, thief you sin in the BIG TEN category.
Lets go a bit further.
If you have impure thoughts you sin in the BIG TEN category.
if you get angry with your brother you are in danger of the fires of hell.
Lets keep the holy, righteous, and perfect law of God at its pristine level.

Heard it before. If you'll state your argument without the sarcasm, and so it's clear to all what you are saying, I'll address it...that is, if you want.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I may have been a teenager, but the law doesn't make exceptions for age, it is inflexible.

That's the second time that one has come around on this thread I think, unless we have a couple threads on the same subject going now.

The law doesn't do anything on it's own, it can't make acceptation or be flexible/inflexible (that's the first not so subtle twist here), God can, does, and always has been flexable, and pretending he ignores certain circumstances to defend ones agenda, does not make it a fact. Yet these same arguments pop up constantly.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Heard it before. If you'll state your argument without the sarcasm, and so it's clear to all what you are saying, I'll address it...that is, if you want.

Many today( not saying you do) claim you must obey the Ten Commandments to attain to heaven. And when they mention the TC they often refer to not committing adultery, murdering, stealing etc.
Again, i am not claiming this is you. But many give the impression This is what the TC consist of, but it goes much further than that. If you look at a woman with lust in your eye you break the TC. If you have an impure thought you break the TC.
I grew up I a church that stressed holy living/ you must obey the TC.
I responded to an altar call at the tender age of ten. On the outside I could act very pious and holy. I obviously didn't drink, smoke, use foul language, steal, commit adultery, murder etc. I tithed my pocket money and went to most of the church meetings. But I could not obey the TC on the inside. I reached puberty, and my guilt got worse. In my view, how could I be a Christian, I was constantly breaking Gods good and holy laws on the inside/ breaking the TC, for i sinned in my members (rom7:14-25.)
Can I ask you your thoughts on the following?
The church had 350 members. They all heard the same sermons as me. They all believed Gods laws( especially the TC) must be obeyed, and they gave the impression they lived very holy lives. But I left the church at the age of fifteen, because being honest, I knew I could not obey the TC/ Gods laws on the inside.
Yet the core members of the church remained.
Do you imagine I was the only person in the church who had impure thoughts? If not, why do you think the others remained while I left? Do you think possibly they excused breaking the TC themselves though they believed they must be obeyed to attain heaven?
This is an important point. I'm grateful you want to discuss it.
How come, if a variety of people believe you must obey the TC if you want to attain heaven, some of these people walk away from church because they know, in humble honest estimation of themselves they cannot obey them on the inside, while others remain whilst also not being able to obey the TC on the inside.
Why do different people view Thi so differently? Do you think some don't realise they break the TC by having impure thoughts? Is That possible? The law is written on your mind if you are a christian
Do people grade the TC according to what they believe is of lesser or greater importance to keep?

Its a mystery to me. If you say you must obey the TC with the inference heaven hinges on it, you have to obey all of them, not a few of them

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's the second time that one has come around on this thread I think, unless we have a couple threads on the same subject going now.

The law doesn't do anything on it's own, it can't make acceptation or be flexible/inflexible (that's the first not so subtle twist here), God can, does, and always has been flexable, and pretending he ignores certain circumstances to defend ones agenda, does not make it a fact. Yet these same arguments pop up constantly.

The Apostle Paul viewed the letter of the TC as I do.
He referred to those commands as the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, for he fully understood the demands of the TC
There is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to them to entitle you to enter heaven. Perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them.
Before you accuse me of trying to excuse sin.
In the fifty years I have attended various churches, I have found those who least reflect what Christ termed the higher points of the law, were those who most earnestly stressed you must obey the TC to attain heaven.
Also, once I stopped believing my justification/ righteousness in Gods sight was observing the law/ TC, and stood on a sole righteousness/ justification of faith I Christ, I started better upholding the TC( though not perfectly)

This of course is in line with Paul's core message of grace.