Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[truefiction1]

Were there many Jews that were able to keep ALL of His commandments? I certainly don't believe so, especially when reading through the book of Judges. I don't believe many Christians can do the same either, in fact I would suggest that we are no better. Not without some supernatural help that is. It's good thing we have a Savior that has paved the way (and He is the way) to spend eternity with God, and we do not need to place our hope in the frailty of our feeble works.

Let me kindly remind you, my brother, that Christianity is unique among the other world religions. The focus of the Gospel is clear when it reveals that our beliefs are not about what we can do in order to earn favor with God, like the others teach, but what God has done in order that we might have fellowship with Him, again. Certainly a Christian is to live his life as as you suggest, and He shall with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but any suggestion that a mistake or ere from a fallible person would result in damnation brings little hope to anyone.

With God, all things are possible. The words of Christ are the words of Truth. The very first preaching that the Lord did was the preaching of repentance. If the Lord deemed it not possible for us to turn from our sinfulness and Live, the He would not beckon us to do so. He does, however, even now beckon us to do so, and has sent the Holy Spirit into the world as our helper so that we can succeed. Little falls are of no consequence so long as we repent of them and return to the narrow Gate of repentance. Failing to continue through the narrow gate of repentance will result in damnation.

 

[Radrook]

In order to accept the once saved forever saved idea we would have to be willing to reject all the scriptures which tell us clearly that salvation can be lost via willful, unrepentant sinning.

 

[bcbsr]

Okay. Let's track that out. Would Abraham have been counted righteous if he'd told God thanks but no thanks, he was staying in the city of Ur?

Your proposition is that Abraham was justified because he obeyed. Whereas the apostle Paul pointed out that he was justified not because of any work he had done but simply because he believed the promise of God.

Whatever imaginary hypothetical scenario you would like to tack on is irrelevant to the fact that Abraham was justified by faith apart from works, just like those of us who believe the gospel.

Is a man justified by putting his faith in his own works to qualify him? No.

 

[bcbsr]

In order to accept the once saved forever saved idea we would have to be willing to reject all the scriptures which tell us clearly that salvation can be lost via willful, unrepentant sinning.

But since "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 therefore any such people who continue in sin have not been born of God and as such were never saved to begin with. Thus John evaluates those who "fall away" in this fashion. "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

 

[bcbsr]

16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
(Matthew 19:16-19).

Whoa, Is this works salvation?

Well, this would not be man directed works salvation but it would be God directed works salvation (See John 15:5)(Philippians 2:13).


...

Yes Jesus was talking about works salvation in that passage - justification by law, just as Paul talked about works salvation in the first two and half chapters of Romans. The purpose of the law was to convict people of sin. This man had not yet seen himself as a sinner in need of grace. Thus Jesus challenged him with the law to drive him to grace.

But the salvation by works Christians (like yourselves) view this works salvation as the gospel. They fall short of the grace of God and stop their gospel before Rom 3:20 (indeed they often view Rom 2:7 as their gospel). For Paul goes on to conclude

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-22

 

[John Hyperspace]

I think this is getting a bit muddled. You seem to be saying someone can't lose their salvation... unless they don't love their neighbor, and then they can lose their salvation.

Not really; I'm saying that a person that doesn't love their neighbor can't even be saved to begin with. He never "passed from death to life" to begin with: 1 John 3:14: and those without love do not know God: 1 John 4:7. All sin of the new covenant proceeds from lack of love for neighbor, and no one who hates others can love God: 1 John 4:20.

Jesus gave a single "new commandment" for the new covenant: John 13:34: which is "His"(the Son's, not, the Father's) commandment of the new covenant: John 15:12. Romans 13:8-10. Now, how do we "obey" the commandment to "love your neighbor"? It can't be robotically obeyed, it has to be given to us through love, to love others. That is the difference between the commandment "do no murder" and "love your neighbor": the former can be robotically obeyed, the latter cannot be robotically obeyed.

What I mean by "robotic obedience" is the ability to obey the letter of the commandment, in absence of spirit. A person who hates another person and would like to murder him, can obey the commandment "do no murder" but that doesn't really mean anything because the spirit of the commandment is out of unfeigned love of others. You and I "do no murder" because of unfeigned love of others. We don't want to murder others. Our love forbids is from doing such an act of ill-will.

So a person can have no love in their heart for their neighbor, and still obey the ten commandments. But that doesn't make them a loving person, it makes them act like a loving person. Jesus took the letter of the law, and, transformed it into the Spirit. Now we obey not in letter, but, in spirit: Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6, John 4:23-24. Our obedience isn't defined by our ability to keep the letter of the rules, but, by our love for others which works no ill-will.

Your position represents a conflict with scripture. Romans 10:9, for example, says one must confess with one's mouth and have faith, you are saved. It seems a bit off then that you apparently think someone who confesses with their mouth and has faith can't be saved just because of a pesky few murders.

It is not meaning a robotic confession, it is meaning that those who know Him will confess Him. You can't put the proverbial cart before the horse. There has to be genuine spirit of unfeigned love and faith: 2 Corinthians 6:6, 1 Timothy 1:5, 1 Peter 1:22. If you truly love others, you will not want to hurt them; and in this spirit of desiring to work no ill-will to others is life from death (1 John 3:14); and no sin is imputed to the one with the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 4:6-8), and his love covers all (Proverbs 10:12): if you truly love others then you will "repent" and be sorry and your conscience grieved at any act or thought being not of love (Romans 2:15) and your loving heart will condemn you itself (1 John 3:20-21), of the Holy Spirit (which is Love, for God is Love: 1 John 4:8)

A person with unfeigned love cannot lose that unfeigned love, it is in fact one of three things that are the only things that can (and will) "remain/abide" any "shaking": Hebrews 12:26-27, 1 Corinthians 13:13: and of these three, love is the greatest and "never fails": 1 Corinthians 13:8. Therefore salvation in unfeigned love never fails and can never be lost: Romans 8:37-39:

 

[bcbsr]

With God, all things are possible. The words of Christ are the words of Truth. The very first preaching that the Lord did was the preaching of repentance. If the Lord deemed it not possible for us to turn from our sinfulness and Live, the He would not beckon us to do so. He does, however, even now beckon us to do so, and has sent the Holy Spirit into the world as our helper so that we can succeed. Little falls are of no consequence so long as we repent of them and return to the narrow Gate of repentance. Failing to continue through the narrow gate of repentance will result in damnation.

The gate is narrow in that those who trust in their own works to save them are disqualified. Christians make up 1/3 of the world's population (and half of those are Catholics). If you narrow the number down to those who trust in Christ and not in their own works to qualify them for salvation you end up will a very small percentage indeed.

"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved." Rom 9:27

 

[truefiction1]

The gate is narrow in that those who trust in their own works to save them are disqualified. Christians make up 1/3 of the world's population (and half of those are Catholics). If you narrow the number down to those who trust in Christ and not in their own works to qualify them for salvation you end up will a very small percentage indeed.

"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved." Rom 9:27

Those who trust in Christ and not in their own works are those who keep His commandments.

 

[bcbsr]

Those who trust in Christ and not in their own works are those who keep His commandments.

Those who trust in keep commandments as their basis for justification are not trusting in Christ.

 

[truefiction1]

Those who trust in keep commandments as their basis for justification are not trusting in Christ.

Salvation requires that we believe (have faith in) and confess that Jesus Christ the Savior is risen from the dead, and that we keep (obey) His commandments -- all of them. Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ plainly speaks of sheep and goats in the judgment. His sheep are those who keep His commandments and the goats are those who don't, even if they had deceived themselves in this regard.

Don't be deceived. Repent! Believe in Jesus Christ and keep all of His commandments strictly for the sake of pleasing Him, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. For the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit) is at hand! It's just that simple (Romans 14:17) (Luke 17:21).

*The sin of pride counts as first among those sinful passions which must be repented of. Pride is what those who consider themselves justified by their own works are guilty of.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Your proposition is that Abraham was justified because he obeyed. Whereas the apostle Paul pointed out that he was justified not because of any work he had done but simply because he believed the promise of God.

Whatever imaginary hypothetical scenario you would like to tack on is irrelevant to the fact that Abraham was justified by faith apart from works, just like those of us who believe the gospel.

Is a man justified by putting his faith in his own works to qualify him? No.

Fair enough. That leads back to my original question.

Would Abraham have still been counted righteous if he refused to leave the city of Ur?

No need to type a bunch of a paragraphs on unrelated subjects; it's a simple question so please answer it.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Not really; I'm saying that a person that doesn't love their neighbor can't even be saved to begin with.

So one must love their fellow man in order to be saved? So much for sola fide, I guess.

Our love forbids is from doing such an act of ill-will.

Why should it matter though? I keep hearing that once one is saved, it's permanent. Who cares if someone loves, hates or is ambivalent about his fellow man? And yet when I question the logical coherence of that proposition, I see conditions (one might say works) being added to the equation all the while denying that "works" play any role in salvation.

Which is it? Does one need only to profess the faith so as to be saved? Or is salvation somehow conditional upon conduct? Is there perhaps some third alternative at play?

There has to be genuine spirit of unfeigned love and faith

I agree. My question does not relate to conversion; it relates to sanctification as much as anything. If one is capable of pronouncing a saving faith, surely it follows that they can change their mind later. To use an analogy, most people have had and then lost friends at some point or another. The fact that you might sever a friendship today for whatever reason doesn't somehow invalidate the depth and fullness of that friendship when it was in full flower, say, ten years ago.

Ergo, is it not possible at least in theory that someone can profess a genuine saving faith in God today and then abandon it tomorrow?

So far, all these remarks have either commented upon conversion, some level of cooperation while at the same time denying the necessity of said cooperation and, in one particularly bizarre instance, referred to my sig. So far though, sanctification has been the hot potato people don't seem to want to touch. It's rather mystifying.

 

[bcbsr]

Fair enough. That leads back to my original question.

Would Abraham have still been counted righteous if he refused to leave the city of Ur?

No need to type a bunch of a paragraphs on unrelated subjects; it's a simple question so please answer it.

The Bible doesn't say. My convictions are not based upon what the Bible doesn't say, but what it does say.

 

[bcbsr]

Salvation requires that we believe (have faith in) and confess that Jesus Christ the Savior is risen from the dead, and that we keep (obey) His commandments -- all of them. Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ plainly speaks of sheep and goats in the judgment. His sheep are those who keep His commandments and the goats are those who don't, even if they had deceived themselves in this regard.

Don't be deceived. Repent! Believe in Jesus Christ and keep all of His commandments strictly for the sake of pleasing Him, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. For the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit) is at hand! It's just that simple (Romans 14:17) (Luke 17:21).

*The sin of pride counts as first among those sinful passions which must be repented of. Pride is what those who consider themselves justified by their own works are guilty of.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10

Rom 10:
2 I can testify about them (the salvation by works Christians) that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."
6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’" (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 "or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

[JoeP222w]

The phrase "Once Saved Always Saved" is pre-loaded with inaccuracy.

It is far more important to use Biblical terminology (implicit and explicit). The topic is better discussed as the "Perseverance of the saints", rather than "once saved always saved" (OSAS).

OSAS has a strong implication that once a person is saved, no matter what they do after than point, that they cannot lose their salvation. Many people twist this to mean this is open license to sin and that there are no consequences to sin, which is far from Biblical truth.

"Perseverance of the saints" is a more accurate Biblical doctrine. God is the one who regenerates the person, brings them to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, and perseveres them to the end. God is the one who perseveres the saint. The saint will show the perseverance of God by the fruit of the Holy Spirit and they will remain faithful till the end by God's grace.

John 6:35-40 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. (36) But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. (37) All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. (38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. (39) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

The Father is the one who gives to the Son, and the Son will not cast out. So for those who claim you can lose your salvation, does the Father fail to give to the Son and does Jesus cast them out? That would go against Biblical teaching.

Moreover, before the work of God in a person's life, they are spiritually dead, because of the headship of Adam in their sin. A dead person has the ability to do nothing, ask any Coroner. Lazarus did not raise himself from the tomb. If a dead person has no ability to do anything, in and of themselves, to save themselves, neither do they have the ability to stay saved.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The Bible doesn't say. My convictions are not based upon what the Bible doesn't say, but what it does say.

Nonsense, scripture does say.

And sojourn in it, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee: for to thee and to thy seed I will give all these countries, to fulfill the oath which I swore to Abraham thy father. And I will multiply thy seed like the stars of heaven: and I will give to thy posterity all these countries: and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my precepts and commandments, and observed my ceremonies and laws.
Genesis 26:3-5 (DRA)

God is basically telling Isaac that the foundation for all of this is Abraham's obedience. Abraham did as he was told and from that came God's blessing.

 

[bcbsr]

Nonsense, scripture does say.

And sojourn in it, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee: for to thee and to thy seed I will give all these countries, to fulfill the oath which I swore to Abraham thy father. And I will multiply thy seed like the stars of heaven: and I will give to thy posterity all these countries: and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my precepts and commandments, and observed my ceremonies and laws.
Genesis 26:3-5 (DRA)

God is basically telling Isaac that the foundation for all of this is Abraham's obedience. Abraham did as he was told and from that came God's blessing.

That's not talking about the basis of Abraham's righteous status, which according to Paul was attained purely by faith alone apart from works. Rather that's referring to rewards for services rendered.

Much as the salvation by works Christians, like yourself, view salvation as a reward for services rendered, Paul says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

 

[John Hyperspace]

So one must love their fellow man in order to be saved? So much for sola fide, I guess.

That is why Paul said "there remain these three: faith, hope and love: and of these love is the greatest." There are two types of faith: feigned faith, and, unfeigned faith; just as love is feigned, or, unfeigned. Now, we know that faith alone cannot save (this is feigned faith) as James writes: James 2:14-16. Many wrestle the words of James here (and so with Paul, "unto their destruction") as if James is speaking of "rule-keeping" works, but James is clearly talking about works of unfeigned love and faith, and not "keeping rules": we see how James immediately connects the idea to helping someone in need, not to "rule-keeping": what good is faith that doesn't show love to others in their time of need? It is worthless: it is feigned: it is "robotic": it is not "of the Spirit"; so John also writes the same: 1 John 3:17-18. You see? James is speaking of "unfeigned faith" (1 Timothy 1:5, 2 Timothy 1:5) while John speaks likewise of "unfeigned love" (2 Corinthians 6:6, 1 Peter 1:22)

Of these works of unfeigned faith, James cites Abraham's show of faith in offering Isaac his "only begotten" full well in perfect faith in the promise of God that Isaac would not die (Hebrews 11:17-19), and Rahab who obeyed no "rule-keeping" but in faith of the promise, hid the spies of Israel. None of these things of which James speaks have anything to do with "works of the flesh/law" in that none of them are "rule-keeping": they are each three works following from unfeigned faith and love. Such is of the Holy Spirit and cannot help but produce fruits of the spirit.

Why should it matter though? I keep hearing that once one is saved, it's permanent. Who cares if someone loves, hates or is ambivalent about his fellow man?

God is the one that cares.

Which is it? Does one need only to profess the faith so as to be saved? Or is salvation somehow conditional upon conduct? Is there perhaps some third alternative at play?

There is a third alternative: unfeigned faith and love will produce fruits following, and salvation is conditional on unfeigned faith and love. Feigned (or, dead; without the spirit; "robotic") faith and love are useless: 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

If one is capable of pronouncing a saving faith, surely it follows that they can change their mind later.

No, love never fails: if what a person experiences "fails" then it was not unfeigned to begin with. Remember the parable of the sower? Those who "fail" had no root; their love was shallow and could not remain when "shaken": if you want to see who is manifesting unfeigned love of God, look for the ones whose love never fails and you will find the ones who are saved.

Ergo, is it not possible at least in theory that someone can profess a genuine saving faith in God today and then abandon it tomorrow?

No, it is not possible. It is possible that there are those that "anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended" and that there are those that "the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful." Unfruitful means "feigned" as their love of the world made manifest: Matthew 6:24: and then there are those that "heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." These are the only three types of ground that receive seed. Note the critical use of the words "understand it" because it is usually that the former two "feigned faithers" never understood the Word to begin with; thus, no "root" and when "shaken" "wither away" - and in that withering away is made manifest that they never knew Him to begin with: 1 John 2:19. I'm sure there are many people who thought they had genuine faith in Christ; but their faith was rooted in a lack of understanding; and any man who "loses faith" never had understanding capable of allowing knowledge of Christ to begin with, otherwise his love would never fail.

So far though, sanctification has been the hot potato people don't seem to want to touch. It's rather mystifying.

How so? Christ is our sanctification: 1 Corinthians 1:30; and by Him we are sanctified, putting no confidence in ourselves: Ephesians 3:12, Philippians 3:3, 2 Corinthians 3:5

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Living a proper life being described as a narrow path and a "good" race sounds like something one could deviate from along the way. The emphasis is on finishing that path/race and in the end that is all that matters in reaching the destination. Impossible to reach the end of such a path or race after deviating unless one returns to it. Also hard to say one is still on it or in it when our actions reflect that we have deviated from it. And if we are really were walking/running it before we deviated, am not sure how we or anyone can claim we were not on it before we turned from it. God forgive me seems required as well as taking care not to stumble as opposed to thinking we cannot.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I agree. My question does not relate to conversion; it relates to sanctification as much as anything. If one is capable of pronouncing a saving faith, surely it follows that they can change their mind later. To use an analogy, most people have had and then lost friends at some point or another. The fact that you might sever a friendship today for whatever reason doesn't somehow invalidate the depth and fullness of that friendship when it was in full flower, say, ten years ago.

Interesting that if you have a relationship with God and the Holy Spirit that shows all truth, that you would not just ask God that question, because He is the One who will judge all and knows all.

Asking someone else what is their, human opinion of why God does what He does shows that you are not looking for 'answers', which God can provide, but to have sinful humans try to say what they 'think' God will do.

Maybe your barking up the wrong tree asking human beings to guess or give THEIR opinion and not asking God directly.

God never says that mankind is faithful and just and righteous in their own right. God DOES say that He Alone is faithful, righteous and just to finish the good work that He has started in us.