Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Why don't you look for the answer in the Bible and then come back and tell me what the answer is and give me the verses that you used to reach your conclusion?

ALso IDK if you remmebr but we had a long argument about what I believed yesterday. I kept telling you about acts 2 and timonthy and you claimed it wasn't applicable becuase of a scholar?

 

[supescritter]

You are making an assumption that being bought and paid for equates with OSAS. It simply does not say that. Scripture also says that names can be blotted out of the book of life. Obviously those whose names were once in the book of life were bought and paid for by Jesus. The question then remains is: What caused their names to be blotted out? Well, I would have to say it was their choice to sin and turn away from God.

...

I tried to find the verses that talk about blotting out, and it seems to say the opposite of what you claim:
Revelation 3:5-6 New International Version (NIV)

5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. 6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The verse in Exodus 32:33:
33The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

appears to be referring to a living book: those who sin against me will be physically killed. It is not the same as "the book of life" of Revelations which is a book of salvation. Compare with Ps 69:28 where David is hoping his enemies are killed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well was the OP as confusing? Because most of my beliefs are very close to hers. So then you are confused by both our beliefs?


My Response: I understood her reasoning, it was organized and made sense. Also had lots of scripture. IT had problems though which I believe I questioned earlier she just didn't respond. You provided a good response on Justification.... but it didn't defend or talk about OSAS.

Well really my entire theology could stand right there, with nothing else. Because if God gives you His righteousness, then you are righteous.

So how can we loose our salvation when we have been given God's righteousness? Unless Jesus was not perfect and holy?

What separated God and mankind in the first place? That's still what separates God and mankind today. It's a 5,000 year old story, but the problem is still the same, sin. And the solution is the same, no sin.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Well really my entire theology could stand right there, with nothing else. Because if God gives you His righteousness, then you are righteous.

So how can we loose our salvation when we have been given God's righteousness? Unless Jesus was not perfect and holy?

What separated God and mankind in the first place? That's still what separates God and mankind today. It's a 5,000 year old story, but the problem is still the same, sin. And the solution is the same, no sin.

nvm that was another guy who i talked about what I believe i'll prsent to you what I believe in a minute.

I can't get OSAS from you so I give up on that.



What separated God and mankind in the first place? That's still what separates God and mankind today. It's a 5,000 year old story, but the problem is still the same, sin. And the solution is the same, no sin.

My Response: I agree with this, but if man still choooses God then turns away from God and can choose not to serve God then there is no OSAS. But anyway forget that i'll present waht I believe.

 

[supescritter]

16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
(Matthew 19:16-19).

Whoa, Is this works salvation?

Not man directed works salvation but God directed works salvation.

You use this term "man directed works salvation" vs "God directed works salvation". What is the functional difference? Thanks.

 

[supescritter]

Can I ask you non-OSAS believers a question?

Do you believe by not giving "enough" monetary offerings to God, you can lose salvation? Not giving enough "offerings" is not in any list that says you will go to hell if it happens, and yet many "visions" that testify that Christians go to hell on youtube said it was because Christians didn't give enough "tithes and offerings".

I do not believe tithes are for Christians, here is the thread on that:
Biblical Tithe was about Food not money

Which is why it's confusing to me how we can be judged for not doing something that the NT never said that believers should do in the first place? (we are to give "offerings", but not "tithes").

 

[ToBeLoved]

I can't get OSAS from you so I give up on that.



What separated God and mankind in the first place? That's still what separates God and mankind today. It's a 5,000 year old story, but the problem is still the same, sin. And the solution is the same, no sin.

My Response: I agree with this, but if man still choooses God then turns away from God and can choose not to serve God then there is no OSAS. But anyway forget that i'll present waht I believe.

You didn't even read the whole post? That was OSAS, you missed it or you don't understand it. Hint: it's about god's righteousness.

 

[supescritter]

Ananais and Sapphira were instantly killed for lying to the Holy Ghost. A great fear fell upon the church when they heard about it. The church did not experience a comfort or joy that they were saved. They experienced "fear." If I was a detective (who was objective), I would have to come to the conclusion that things did not go well for them.

In fact, why are we to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if there is no fear? Does not trembling imply the emotion of .... "fear"?
...

Here is an explanation about Ananias and Sapphira:
Reconciling the Story of Ananias and Sapphira with the New Covenant of Grace

it says that they were not believers in the first place, and merely wanted to join the Church. The argument is compelling I think.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Well really my entire theology could stand right there, with nothing else. Because if God gives you His righteousness, then you are righteous.

So how can we loose our salvation when we have been given God's righteousness? Unless Jesus was not perfect and holy?

What separated God and mankind in the first place? That's still what separates God and mankind today. It's a 5,000 year old story, but the problem is still the same, sin. And the solution is the same, no sin.

WHat I believe INTRO verses sorta(acts 2 is a good basis for what I believe btw)


Gal 4:6

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.



JOhn 14:16-19


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.)





What I believe


1. Speaking in tounques= initial evidence of holy ghost

Acts 19:6 :And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

acts 2:4: And they were all filled with the holy ghost, and began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance.



2. Edfies you

1 corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

2A. It's divine communication with God


1st corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


3. Tongues is one of the signs of the believers

Mark 16:17King James Version (KJV)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;



3 A. Tongues is evidence that God is in an individual
Acts 10:45King James Version (KJV)
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


4. based off acts 19:6 speaking is something that will happen for an individual who receives the holy ghost

1 cor 14:18

1 cor 14.2

Can I ask you non-OSAS believers a question?

Do you believe by not giving "enough" monetary offerings to God, you can lose salvation? Not giving enough "offerings" is not in any list that says you will go to hell if it happens, and yet many "visions" that testify that Christians go to hell on youtube said it was because Christians didn't give enough "tithes and offerings".

I do not believe tithes are for Christians, here is the thread on that:
Biblical Tithe was about Food not money

Which is why it's confusing to me how we can be judged for not doing something that the NT never said that believers should do in the first place? (we are to give "offerings", but not "tithes").

My Response: I don't believe in what you suggest as a non-oSAS believer. At my church we simply tithe to support the church and basically sort of give to god basically. At least for us I can say we don't believe it's a sin if you don't give, but it's good to do so to support God and the growing of his church as well as kind of present your body as a sacrifice of sorts. Maybe it is/was biblical but I haven't studied it much so i can't say.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

You didn't even read the whole post? That was OSAS, you missed it or you don't understand it. Hint: it's about god's righteousness.

that's not OSAS that's just justification. Justification doesn't=OSAS ANd everyone believes in justification even those that don't believe in OSAS.

IF you are referring to this though


So how can we loose our salvation when we have been given God's righteousness? Unless Jesus was not perfect and holy?


We weren't given righteousness... simply justification from sins we were born with... when he resurrected and the holy ghost came that is what empowers us to be righteous.

YOu gotta understand there was his birth,death,resurrection.

You know the first 2 but seem to not know the 3rd. What the 3rd brings I explain in my post before about the holy ghost. The ultimate manifestation of God, the one that is available today.

 

[ToBeLoved]

that's not OSAS that's just justification. Justification doesn't=OSAS ANd everyone believes in justification even those that don't believe in OSAS.

We are just not understanding each other.

If everyone believed in permanant justification, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You believe that God gives it and then takes it back. Like when you get into an argument with your friend and they come to your house and take all their stuff back because they won't play with you anymore. They gave it to you, but only for a while. Which is not giving it at all.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

We are just not understanding each other.

If everyone believed in permanant justification, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You believe that God gives it and then takes it back. Like when you get into an argument with your friend and they come to your house and take all their stuff back because they won't play with you anymore. They gave it to you, but only for a while. Which is not giving it at all.

You're close to what I believe but not 100%

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

We are just not understanding each other.

If everyone believed in permanant justification, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You believe that God gives it and then takes it back. Like when you get into an argument with your friend and they come to your house and take all their stuff back because they won't play with you anymore. They gave it to you, but only for a while. Which is not giving it at all.

I didn't mean to send the reply before yet.

You're close to what I believe but not 100%


I believe in acts 5 where hte holy ghost was taken from 2 individuals and they were killed.... for not obeying God.


I believe the "thing" he gives is his spirit .... (holy ghost) I believe he is willing to let us have his spirit forever as long as we are holy.

hint "holy" ghost.


But if we decide to lie and turn away and commit sins then he will leave us.


1. Your body is a temple for the holy ghost


2. If any man defile his temple him I will destroy

3. I will not dwell in an unclean temple




You underestimate God. YOu assume if he gives something... even if it ironically is his spirit, he can't take it away. But he can it's his after all right? And again he died on the cross for a reason... he can't use an unclean thing same applies for the holy spirit. IF we become sinners again and backslide his spirit will leave.

 

[Timothy Sng]

Once Saved, Forever Safe, an Ebook by Dr.Timothy Sng

My input in an ebook "Once Saved, Forever Safe"

 

[ToBeLoved]

that's not OSAS that's just justification. Justification doesn't=OSAS ANd everyone believes in justification even those that don't believe in OSAS.

IF you are referring to this though

So how can we loose our salvation when we have been given God's righteousness? Unless Jesus was not perfect and holy?
We weren't given righteousness... simply justification from sins we were born with... when he resurrected and the holy ghost came that is what empowers us to be righteous.

Well if Christ made you righteouss only of your sins before Christ, you are not going to heaven because perfection is needed to abide with God. The Holy Spirit does not give us righteousness at all. The Holy Spirit is our helper and advocate in prayer and convicts us of sin, but He cannot remove sin or stop us from sinning.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But if we decide to lie and turn away and commit sins then he will leave us.

1. Your body is a temple for the holy ghost

2. If any man defile his temple him I will destroy

3. I will not dwell in an unclean temple

What is the scripture verses and chapters that says what you are saying here. I know that #1 is true under the New Covenant and I believe #3 is true, but proves my point that unless we have Christ's perfect righteousness the Holy Spirit could not remain in us.

Number #2 I don't know about.

 

[2X4]

Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

So I have read both sides thoroughly, and the problem is this: the side that believes "once saved always saved", I think, has the superior holistic view of all Scripture. The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell, so the risk of believing OSAS is the greatest so you'd better be right. The other problem is that no matter how you feel about what God should do - it's irrelevant - whether you think something is right or not doesn't make it true. If you are confronted by God and God tells you you're wrong, you do not have the luxury of arguing with Him. Too many people believe in an interpretation based on what they feel is right.

Lastly: people need to realize that whatever you believe is just an interpretation of the Word - it doesn't mean it IS the Word, even though you quote the Bible. Both sides of the debate quote the SAME VERSES, but have different interpretations. It disappoints me when I read a website quoting all these verses as if their interpretation is correct without bothering to address the other side's interpretation of those same verses (and acting as if the other side has never seen those verses before).

I believe this is a difficult subject and therefore we must carefully and prayerfully ask God to give us the complete understanding of salvation.

So what do I want? I want a careful discussion of the controversial verses of salvation and whether you can lose it. And by careful I mean - let's not approach this with a presupposition and refuse to budge from it. Let's approach it from an attitude of seeking the truth realizing that we may be on the wrong side of it.

I think this is the most important subject in this entire site. There's no point in debating theology if we're not truly saved, therefore we should really really get this theology right.

I will begin stating my opinions in the next post. Thanks.

I go by what the spirit of God has revealed to me.

Jeremiah 31
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Micah 7
18: Who is a God like thee, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger for ever because he delights in steadfast love.
19: He will again have compassion upon us, he will tread our iniquities under foot. Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.
20: Thou wilt show faithfulness to Jacob and steadfast love to Abraham, as thou hast sworn to our fathers from the days of old.

Genesis 22
15: And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
16: and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17: I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies,
18: and by your descendants shall all the
nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."

 

[truefiction1]

Salvation requires that we believe and confess that Jesus Christ the Savior is risen from the dead, and that we keep (obey) His commandments -- all of them. Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ plainly speaks of sheep and goats in the judgment. His sheep are those who keep His commandments and the goats are those who don't, even if they had deceived themselves in this regard.

Don't be deceived. Repent! Believe in Jesus Christ and keep all of His commandments strictly for the sake of pleasing Him, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. For the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit) is at hand! It's just that simple (Romans 14:17) (Luke 17:21).

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Well if Christ made you righteous only of your sins before Christ, you are not going to heaven because perfection is needed to abide with God. The Holy Spirit does not give us righteousness at all. The Holy Spirit is our helper and advocate in prayer and convicts us of sin, but He cannot remove sin or stop us from sinning.

And i'm glad you finally agree with me. Christ can't control well he can... but he chooses not to control an individual which is why OSAS doesn't make sense. IF someone doesn't want to walk with christ or believe in him anymore they can leave and lose their salvation. As you point out we can choose to turn back and reenter a life full of sin.




What is the scripture verses and chapters that says what you are saying here. I know that #1 is true under the New Covenant and I believe #3 is true, but proves my point that unless we have Christ's perfect righteousness the Holy Spirit could not remain in us.


My Response: I can't agree with that man because their are people who have gotten the holy ghost, but ended up not devoting time towards GOd at all. Like i've seen people get it and do so little with the spirit of God and not develop a prayer life or anything. Also acts 5 shows you can get the holy ghost but not develop fruits as well as a straight up have your holy ghost stripped from you. One women gave a testimony about this she uh... slept with a bishop and she felt as if a vacuum sucked the holy ghost out of her.

Also there's this

2nd peter 5-10

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Conclusion: You don't start with the qualities of christ when you get saved you add them. Salvation is a process. There's a reason the bible says as newborn babes in christ desire the sincere milk of the word so ye may grow.



1 Corinthians 6:19
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



Number #2 I don't know about.

My response:

1 Corinthians 3:17

“If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy: for the Temple of God is holy, which Temple ye are.”

1611 King James Version (KJV)

 

[GillDouglas]

Salvation requires that we believe and confess that Jesus Christ the Savior is risen from the dead, and that we keep (obey) His commandments -- all of them. Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ plainly speaks of sheep and goats in the judgment. His sheep are those who keep His commandments and the goats are those who don't, even if they had deceived themselves in this regard.

Don't be deceived. Repent! Believe in Jesus Christ and keep all of His commandments strictly for the sake of pleasing Him, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. For the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit) is at hand! It's just that simple (Romans 14:17) (Luke 17:21).

Were there many Jews that were able to keep ALL of His commandments? I certainly don't believe so, especially when reading through the book of Judges. I don't believe many Christians can do the same either, in fact I would suggest that we are no better. Not without some supernatural help that is. It's good thing we have a Savior that has paved the way (and He is the way) to spend eternity with God, and we do not need to place our hope in the frailty of our feeble works.

Let me kindly remind you, my brother, that Christianity is unique among the other world religions. The focus of the Gospel is clear when it reveals that our beliefs are not about what we can do in order to earn favor with God, like the others teach, but what God has done in order that we might have fellowship with Him, again. Certainly a Christian is to live his life as as you suggest, and He shall with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but any suggestion that a mistake or ere from a fallible person would result in damnation brings little hope to anyone.