Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

ToBeLoved

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Christ, the guarantee'or of the New Covenant

Christ sends the Holy Spirit to His Children

John 14:16-18
16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

John 16:7-8

7 But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

Romans 8:26

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27 And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

21 Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.


2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Romans 8:15-16

15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ
 
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Amen even if let's say you were a once saved always saved believer it's best to strive to do good anyway. Allows us to get closer to god

I believe it's a mixture of both because god doesn't force us to stay with him, but if we choose to stay with him then we can remain saved. He says we must choose good or evil. You can be saved your whole life sure, but you you must be consistent in your walk for that to happen. The highway of upright departures from evil they that keepeth their way persevere their soul.

I disagree.

While a believer can have an assurance of their salvation, one cannot be once saved always saved if salvation is conditional and they could potentially lose their salvation. Paul said work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Also, if a person who believes in OSAS acts like they could lose their salvation but they really do not believe they can lose their salvation, then they are going to eventually revert back to reality at some point. They are going to one day face a person who is desperate to hear the OSAS message and they will cave in and give it to them and tell them that they are secure in Jesus. But if our OSAS friend (who believes in living holy) does not get a chance to tell their new OSAS seeker about how they must live holy, then they are going to think they have a license to sin (Whether our OSAS friend here wants that to happen or not).


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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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I disagree.

While a believer can have an assurance of their salvation, one cannot be once saved always saved if salvation is conditional and they could potentially lose their salvation. Paul said work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Also, if a person who believes in OSAS acts like they could lose their salvation but they really do not believe they can lose their salvation, then they are going to eventually revert back to reality at some point. They are going to one day face a person who is desperate to hear the OSAS message and they will cave in and give it to them and tell them that they are secure in Jesus. But if our OSAS friend (who believes in living holy) does not get a chance to tell their new OSAS seeker about how they must live holy, then they are going to think they have a license to sin (Whether our OSAS friend here wants that to happen or not).


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You misread my comment. I said even if the author of the comment believed in once saved always saved he should strive to live right rather then abuse this eternal grace insurance policy . The author of the comment and I myself don't believe in that. I was just saying if innsome hypothetical we did. I do however stand by the second half of my comment. Also when I say whole life inmean after receiving salvation.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Now I would like to look at what happens or what is the very short process of salvation (if God wasn't so quick, like a millisecond!)

Justification -

Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Justification

Justification is the declaring of a person to be just or righteous. It is a legal term signifying acquittal, a fact that makes it unpalatable to many in our day. We tend to distrust legalism and thus we dismiss anything that savors of a legalistic approach. We should be clear that our hesitation was not shared by the biblical writers. In their day it was axiomatic that a wealthy and important citizen would not be treated in a law court in the same way as an insignificant person. Indeed this was sometimes written into the statutes and, for example, in the ancient Code of Hammurabi it is laid down that if a citizen knocked out the tooth of another citizen his own tooth should be knocked out. But if the victim was a vassal it sufficed to pay a small fine. Nobody expected strict justice in human tribunals but the biblical writers were sure that God is a God of justice.Throughout the Bible justice is a category of fundamental importance.

Romans 5:1-2
1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


Let us remember the previous posts, Jesus purchased us, for a price. Notice above that Justification used in the Bible is a legal term. Jesus legally and through a cost, purchased legally each one of His Children from spiritual death, into spiritual life.

When we changed 'masters' we officially changed ownership from children of satan and sin, to Children of God and righteousness. To make each of us righteous, Christ Justifies us (Christ declares us righteous, by GIVING US His righteousness). So we become righteous not by anything we did, but because of who our master is that bought us for a price.

The New Covenant is considered a legal covenant between us and God and God cannot break His Covenant and since He purchased us for a price, we are His and cannot break the Covenant either.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Actually you're kind of mistaken on that point. Note Paul's interpretation of Gen 15:6

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God.
3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (Gen 15:6)
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Paul's point here is that Abraham didn't do anything to be justified, but simply believe the promise of God. That's Paul's conclusion, Paul's interpretation of Gen 15:6.

So, no, Abraham didn't "obey" in order to be justified.
Okay. Let's track that out. Would Abraham have been counted righteous if he'd told God thanks but no thanks, he was staying in the city of Ur?
 
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thecolorsblend

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You signature is the most Non scriptural load of lies I've ever seen and denies the one (1) ONE mediator between mankind and God.
Maybe you should start a separate thread to critique my sig. I'm not sure if this is the right thread for that sort of discussion.
 
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Aldebaran

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There's a lot to unpack with your posts. Too much, really. But a couple of points stood out.

And what did Abraham do, friend? He believed and he obeyed.

That's not exactly what Romans 4:3 says though. It simply says: "For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

What did Abraham believe? The prior verses (the original text from Genesis chapter 15) tell us:

3And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”
4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
 
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I will begin my support of OSAS with Hebrews. This chapter compares the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods of the Old Covenant with the Melchezedek priesthood of the New Covenant (ie. Christ)

Hebrews 7:11 - 28
A Superior Priesthood
11 Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (upon which basis the people received the Law), why was there still a need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the Law must be changed as well.

Yes, this is saying that the Laws have changed from one covenant to the next. There are New Commands (i.e. a New Law) according to the New Covenant. There is nothing here saying that you are "once saved alway saved."

ToBeLoved said:
13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, a tribe as to which Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is testified:

“You are a priest forever

in the order of Melchizedek.”

Again, this does not prove OSAS. This is merely saying that Jesus was different than the Levitical priesthood by the fact that Jesus is eternal and his priesthood is eternal vs. the Levitical priesthood being after succession and temporal.
ToBeLoved said:
18 So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

What was the former commandment(s) that was set aside?
The Law of Moses. The Old Testament Laws.

Again, nothing here about OSAS.

ToBeLoved said:
20 And none of this happened without an oath. For others became priests without an oath, 21 but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind,

‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

It says in other translations that Jesus guarantees a better covenant. It does not say Jesus is the guarantee in how a person cannot fall away from Him within the New Covenant. So again, no OSAS is being taught here.

ToBeLoved said:
23 Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. 24 But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

Verse 25 is in context to Hebrews 10:4 that says,

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4). Meaning Jesus saves completely or to the uttermost in relation to how the OT Saint no longer has to keep revisiting the same sins year after year anymore. Once a person comes to Jesus, their PAST sins will forever be forgiven and they do not need to be revisited like in the Old Testament.

Verse 26 is saying that Jesus forever lives to intercede for his saints. This does not mean that there will be sin in the final New Earth. We learn in Revelation that there will be no more death, disease, pain, suffering, etc.

Verse 26 is saying that Jesus forever lives to intercede for all their past sin that He takes care of prior to the Judgment. For there will only be one Judgment (which is in two parts or stages; One for believers and one for unbelievers). Anyways, we learn about how Christ intercedes for us in 1 John 2:1-2 and 1 John 1:9. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. 1 John 1:7 would also be in context to this, as well. Meaning, we not only have to confess our sins, but we have to do so with the intention of forsaking them. For if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Do you believe you have to walk in the light to get the blood of Jesus?

ToBeLoved said:
26 Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the Law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.


So we can see who and what we now have in Jesus Christ, our Savior as our High Priest and the guarantee'or of the New Covenant which is sealed in God Himself, the Holy Spirit. Notice in verse 12 that the law must change as well. New High Priest, New Covenant, new seal, new law.


Again, don't see anything here that supports OSAS.


ToBeLoved said:
Now my second point is that we officially change ownership when we are saved in the New Covenant.
ToBeLoved said:

1 Corinthians 7:23

You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Peter 1:18
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers,

Revelation 5:9

And they sang a new song: "Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

We have been purchased by Jesus for a price. And we have changed masters, from serving self/flesh to serving God. We have not been purchased with silver or gold, which can perish, but with the blood of God Himself who will never perish.


You are making an assumption that being bought and paid for equates with OSAS. It simply does not say that. Scripture also says that names can be blotted out of the book of life. Obviously those whose names were once in the book of life were bought and paid for by Jesus. The question then remains is: What caused their names to be blotted out? Well, I would have to say it was their choice to sin and turn away from God.

ToBeLoved said:

Actually, this verse disproves OSAS and it does not prove it. It is saying that if you cannot serve both God and sin.


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thecolorsblend

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Why does the 'you can loose your salvation crowd always grab out the most extreme example that would not be 1/5000 th of the population and then stake their cause on that.
Probably because extreme examples such as mine are the ones which tend to be the most black and white scenarios imaginable for establishing a paradigm of morality.

As if God is making His covenant with us looking at the 1 in 5000 th person who would have some deep, deep seeded issues if not gross mental illness.
Don't people with "deep, deep seeded issues" also need a Savior?

In doing this IMHO, they show that they do not know the Bible in that they do not know the nature of God much at all, because God is indwelling each individual believer and God knows EVERYTHING that will ever happen and our motivations for EVERYTHING we have ever done.
With respect, I am trying to understand your point in this. Can you clarify on it for me please? I ask because one possible interpretation of your comment is God will only accept morally virtuous people for being saved.

But the naysayer's grab the most ridiculous examples making God out to be a fool in the process when God can only be what God is. And a fool is not something He can be.
On the contrary, I believe God is perfect in His wisdom and knowledge. He would therefore set out logical parameters by which people can be saved. I therefore find it a bit difficult to imagine that He would institute a system along the lines of Eternal Security/OSAS.

They never start a "valid" conversation to begin with, they started an "extreme" example that they want us to defend our position over.
History is replete with people doing extreme things. Take Stalin, for example. He was a Georgian Orthodox Christian at one point. According to the Eternal Security/OSAS model, he should have gone to Heaven upon his death in spite of being one of the greatest enemies the Christian faith has ever faced in Russia and also in spite of his policies and orders which resulted in the deaths of millions of people. But he did profess the faith at one point so his subsequent actions don't matter, right? Or do they matter?

Then if they feel they are loosing, comes "extreme" example number #2 and so on ...........
You could try answering my hypothetical. That might be more productive to this discussion than attacking me.
 
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That's not exactly what Romans 4:3 says though. It simply says: "For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

What did Abraham believe? The prior verses (the original text from Genesis chapter 15) tell us:

3And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”
4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." (Romans 4:21).

20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:20-26).


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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Now I would like to look at what happens or what is the very short process of salvation (if God wasn't so quick, like a millisecond!)

Justification -

Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Justification

Justification is the declaring of a person to be just or righteous. It is a legal term signifying acquittal, a fact that makes it unpalatable to many in our day. We tend to distrust legalism and thus we dismiss anything that savors of a legalistic approach. We should be clear that our hesitation was not shared by the biblical writers. In their day it was axiomatic that a wealthy and important citizen would not be treated in a law court in the same way as an insignificant person. Indeed this was sometimes written into the statutes and, for example, in the ancient Code of Hammurabi it is laid down that if a citizen knocked out the tooth of another citizen his own tooth should be knocked out. But if the victim was a vassal it sufficed to pay a small fine. Nobody expected strict justice in human tribunals but the biblical writers were sure that God is a God of justice.Throughout the Bible justice is a category of fundamental importance.
It mattered to the biblical writers that God is a God is a God of perfect justice, atruth expressed in Abraham's question, "Will not the Judge of all the earth doright?" ( Gen18:25 ). God can be relied on to act in perfect justice and without giving preferenceto the wealthy and the highly placed in our human societies. "The Lord takes hisplace in court; he rises to judge the people. The Lord enters into judgment against theelders and leaders of his people" ( Isa 3:13-14 ).Over and over the punishment of evil is put in legal terms ( Exod 6:6 ; 7:4 ) and specificallyIsrael's sin is brought out with the use of legal imagery ( Micah 6:1-2 ).

Accordingly it is not surprising that salvation is often viewed in legal terms. Thebasic question in all religion is, "How can sinful people be just (i.e., bejustified) before the holy God?" Justification is a legal term with a meaning like"acquittal"; in religion it points to the process whereby a person is declaredto be right before God. That person should be an upright and good person, butjustification does not point to qualities like these. That is rather the content ofsanctification. Justification points to the acquittal of one who is tried before God. Inboth the Old Testament and the New the question receives a good deal of attention and inboth it is clear that people cannot bring about their justification by their own efforts.The legal force of the terminology is clear when Job exclaims, "Now that I haveprepared my case, I know I will be vindicated" ( Job 13:18 ).

Justification (dikaiosis [dikaivwsi"]) is connected linguistically withrighteousness (dikaiosune [dikaiosuvnh]); in the first century it is clear that all the wordswith this root were concerned with conformity to a standard of right. And in Scripture itis not too much to say that righteousness is basically a legal term. The law that matteredwas, of course, the law of God, so that righteousness signified conformity to the law ofGod.

The Old Testament. We do not find the full New Testament doctrine ofjustification by faith in the Old Testament, but we do find teachings that agree with itand that in due course were taken up into that doctrine. Thus it is made clear that sin isuNIVersal, but that God provides forgiveness. For the first point, "All have turnedaside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not evenone" ( Psalm 14:3 ).And when God looks down from heaven he sees that "they have together become corrupt;there is no one who does good, not even one" ( Psalm 53:2-3 ).Many such passages could be cited. And for the second point, "If you, O Lord, kept arecord of sins, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness" ( Psalm 130:3-4 ).The end of Micah's prophecy emphasizes that God is a God "who pardons sin andforgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance" and that he"delights to show mercy" ( 7:18-20 ).

Sometimes we find the thought that God imputes righteousness to people. He did this toAbraham, who believed God "and he credited it to him as righteousness" ( Gen 15:6 ). AgainPhinehas took decisive action so that the plague was checked and "This was creditedto him as righteousness" ( Psalm 106:31 ;Phinehas is described in the words, "as zealous as I am for my honor among them," Num 25:11 ).And the prophet can say, "He who vindicates (or justifies) me is near" ( Isa 50:8 ).

The New Testament. When we turn to the New Testament we must be clear that therighteousness and justification terminology is to be understood in the light of its Hebrewbackground, not in terms of contemporary Greek ideas. We see this, for example, in thewords of Jesus who speaks of people giving account on the day of judgment: "by yourwords you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned" ( Matt 12:37 ; theword NIV translates "acquitted" is the one Paul normally uses for"justified" ). Those acquitted on the day of judgment are spoken of as "therighteous" ( Matt25:37 ; they go into "eternal life, " v. 46 ).

The verb translated "to justify" clearly means "to declarerighteous." It is used of God in a quotation, which the New International Versionrenders "So that you may be proved right when you speak" ( Rom 3:4 ; the NRSV hasmore exactly, "So that you may be justified in your words" ). Now God cannot be"made righteous"; the expression obviously means "shown to berighteous" and this helps us see that when the word is applied to believers it doesnot mean "made righteous"; it signifies "declared righteous, ""shown to be in the right, " or the like.

Paul is fond of the concept of justification; indeed for him it is the characteristicway of referring to the central truth of the gospel. He makes much more use of the conceptthan do the other writers of the New Testament. This does not mean that he has a differentunderstanding of the gospel; it is the same gospel that he proclaims, the gospel that thedeath of Christ on the cross has opened a way of salvation for sinners. But he uses theconcept of justification to express it whereas the other writers prefer other terms. Hesays, "Just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, soalso through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous" ( Rom 5:19 ). We shouldnot understand "were made sinners" in any such sense as "were compelled tobe sinners." It signifies "were constituted sinners, " "were reckonedas sinners." Paul is saying that the whole human race is caught up in the effect ofAdam's sin; now all are sinners. Paul speaks of God "who justifies the wicked" ( Rom 4:5 ): it is notpeople who have merited their salvation of whom he writes, but people who had no claim onsalvation. It was "while we were still sinners" that Christ died for us ( Rom 5:8 ). But theeffect of Christ's saving work is that now all believers are "made righteous, ""accepted by God as righteous."

Paul insists that people are not justified by what they themselves do. Justification isnot the result of the infusion of new life into people, but comes about when they believe.The apostle points to the important example of Abraham, the great forbear of the Jewishrace, as one who was not justified by works ( Rom 4:2-3 ). And, ofcourse, if Abraham was not justified by works, then who could possibly be? SpecificallyPaul says, "a man is not justified by observing the law"; indeed, "byobserving the law no one will be justified" ( Gal 2:16 ; cf. also Gal 3:11 ).

There is something of a problem in that, whereas Paul says quite plainly thatjustification is by faith and not by works, James holds that "a person is justifiedby what he does and not by faith alone" ( 2:24 ). Jameschooses Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who were justified by works ( James 2:21 James 2:25 ). Hepoints out that Abraham "offered his son Isaac on the altar" and that Rahablodged the spies and sent them away.

But we should notice that both these Old Testament worthies are elsewhere singled outas examples of faith. Paul cited Abraham to establish the truth that we are justified byfaith rather than by works. Indeed, he quotes Scripture, "Abraham believed God, andit was credited to him as righteousness" ( Rom 4:3 , citing Gen 15:6 ; he citesit again in v. 22 ). In Romans 4 Paul has a strong argument that it was not works thatcommended the patriarch to God, but faith: Abraham is, for Paul, the classic example of aman who believed and who was accepted by God because of his faith. And the writer to theHebrews says plainly that it was "by faith" that Rahab welcomed the spies ( Heb 11:31 ).

If we look more closely at what James says we see that he is not arguing for works in the absence of faith, but rather for works as the evidence of faith. "Show me your faith without deeds, " he writes, "and I will show you my faith by what I do" ( 2:18 ) and goes on to cite the demons who believe that there is one God as examples of the kind of faith he deprecates. James is sure that saving faith transforms the believer so that good works necessarily follow; and he complains about people who say they have faith, butwhose lives show quite plainly that they have not been saved. When people have savingfaith God transforms their lives and James' point is that in the absence of thistransformation we have no reason for thinking that those who profess to be believersreally have saving faith. We should not overlook the fact that James as well as Paulquotes Genesis 15:6 to make it clear that Abraham was justified by faith. And we shouldbear in mind that this was many years before he offered Isaac on the altar; indeed it wasbefore Isaac was born. While the offering of Isaac showed that Abraham was justified, hisjustification, even on James' premises, took place long before the act that showed itspresence.

And we must say much the same about Paul. He certainly calls vigorously for faith, buthe calls equally vigorously for lives of Christian service. And when he writes, "Theonly thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love" ( Gal 5:6 ), he issaying something with which James would surely agree. For James says, "I will showyou my faith by what I do" ( 2:18 ).

Paul continually emphasizes the importance of justification by faith. In his sermon atAntioch in Pisidia he points out that "through Jesus the forgiveness of sins isproclaimed to you" and immediately adds, "Through him everyone who believes isjustified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses" ( Acts 13:38-39 ).More than once he quotes the words from Habbakuk 2:4, "the righteous will live byfaith" ( Rom 1:17 ; Gal 3:11 ; cf.also Gal 2:16 ; Heb 10:38 ). Hesays explicitly that justification is by faith and not by observing the law ( Rom 3:28 ), or simplythat "we have been justified through faith" ( Rom 5:1 ).

Paul does not, of course, argue that faith is a meritorious act that of itself bringsabout justification. He is not saying that if we believe strongly enough we somehow getrid of our sins. But real faith means trust in God and when we trust God we are open tothe divine power that works in us to make us the sort of people we ought to be and toaccomplish the divine purpose. When we insist on our own moral performance we cutourselves off from the good that God works in believers.

At the center of Paul's religion is the cross of Jesus, and faith means trusting thecrucified Lord. Thus Paul says that Jesus "was delivered over to death for our sinsand was raised to life for our justification" ( Rom 4:25 ). We shouldnot, of course, put too strong a distinction between the effects of Jesus' death and theeffects of his resurrection. Paul is saying that Jesus' death and resurrection meant acomplete dealing with sins and a perfectly accomplished justification. We are"justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus"( Rom 3:24 ), whichmeans that Jesus' atoning death is critically important in our justification. Similarly weare justified "by his grace" ( Rom 3:24 ), "byhis blood" ( Rom5:9 ), "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" ( 1 Cor 6:11 ), and"in Christ" ( Gal 2:17 ), which areall ways of saying that it is the saving work of Jesus that brings about the justificationof sinners.

Salvation by the way of the cross was so that God would be "just and the one whojustifies the man who has faith in Jesus" ( Rom 3:26 ). This willbe in mind also in the reference to God as presenting Christ "as a sacrifice ofatonement (better, "a propitiation") through faith in his blood" ( Rom 3:25 ). That weare "justified by his blood" ( Rom 5:9 ) points tothe same truth: It is the death of Jesus that makes us right with God. This is the meaningalso when we read that we are "justified by his grace" ( Titus 3:7 ). It wasGod's good gift that brought justification, his "one act of righteousness" inChrist that effected it ( Romans 5:16 Romans 5:18 ).Another way of putting it is that the saved are saved not because of their ownrighteousness (they are sinners), but because of the righteousness that is from God andwhich they receive by faith ( Php 3:9 ; cf. 2 Col 5:21 ).

It is plain from the New Testament teaching throughout that justification comes to thesinner by the atoning work of Jesus and that this is applied to the individual sinner byfaith. That God pardons and accepts believing sinners is the truth that is enshrined inthe doctrine of justification by faith. Justification Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Romans 5:1-2
1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


Let us remember the previous posts, Jesus purchased us, for a price. Notice above that Justification used in the Bible is a legal term. Jesus legally and through a cost, purchased legally each one of His Children from spiritual death, into spiritual life.

When we changed 'masters' we officially changed ownership from children of satan and sin, to Children of God and righteousness. To make each of us righteous, Christ Justifies us (Christ declares us righteous, by GIVING US His righteousness). So we become righteous not by anything we did, but because of who our master is that bought us for a price.

The New Covenant is considered a legal covenant between us and God and God cannot break His Covenant and since He purchased us for a price, we are His and cannot break the Covenant either.

Now at this point, in order to loose our salvation, Christ MUST remove His Justification from us, which would mean breaking the New Covenant.

Can God break the New Covenant?
That's what I pointed out earlier, if you believe you are saved through the cross and justification then there's no way to argue other wise. Have to accept osas becuase it ends with justification.
Now I would like to look at what happens or what is the very short process of salvation (if God wasn't so quick, like a millisecond!)

Justification -

Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Justification

Justification is the declaring of a person to be just or righteous. It is a legal term signifying acquittal, a fact that makes it unpalatable to many in our day. We tend to distrust legalism and thus we dismiss anything that savors of a legalistic approach. We should be clear that our hesitation was not shared by the biblical writers. In their day it was axiomatic that a wealthy and important citizen would not be treated in a law court in the same way as an insignificant person. Indeed this was sometimes written into the statutes and, for example, in the ancient Code of Hammurabi it is laid down that if a citizen knocked out the tooth of another citizen his own tooth should be knocked out. But if the victim was a vassal it sufficed to pay a small fine. Nobody expected strict justice in human tribunals but the biblical writers were sure that God is a God of justice.Throughout the Bible justice is a category of fundamental importance.
It mattered to the biblical writers that God is a God is a God of perfect justice, atruth expressed in Abraham's question, "Will not the Judge of all the earth doright?" ( Gen18:25 ). God can be relied on to act in perfect justice and without giving preferenceto the wealthy and the highly placed in our human societies. "The Lord takes hisplace in court; he rises to judge the people. The Lord enters into judgment against theelders and leaders of his people" ( Isa 3:13-14 ).Over and over the punishment of evil is put in legal terms ( Exod 6:6 ; 7:4 ) and specificallyIsrael's sin is brought out with the use of legal imagery ( Micah 6:1-2 ).

Accordingly it is not surprising that salvation is often viewed in legal terms. Thebasic question in all religion is, "How can sinful people be just (i.e., bejustified) before the holy God?" Justification is a legal term with a meaning like"acquittal"; in religion it points to the process whereby a person is declaredto be right before God. That person should be an upright and good person, butjustification does not point to qualities like these. That is rather the content ofsanctification. Justification points to the acquittal of one who is tried before God. Inboth the Old Testament and the New the question receives a good deal of attention and inboth it is clear that people cannot bring about their justification by their own efforts.The legal force of the terminology is clear when Job exclaims, "Now that I haveprepared my case, I know I will be vindicated" ( Job 13:18 ).

Justification (dikaiosis [dikaivwsi"]) is connected linguistically withrighteousness (dikaiosune [dikaiosuvnh]); in the first century it is clear that all the wordswith this root were concerned with conformity to a standard of right. And in Scripture itis not too much to say that righteousness is basically a legal term. The law that matteredwas, of course, the law of God, so that righteousness signified conformity to the law ofGod.

The Old Testament. We do not find the full New Testament doctrine ofjustification by faith in the Old Testament, but we do find teachings that agree with itand that in due course were taken up into that doctrine. Thus it is made clear that sin isuNIVersal, but that God provides forgiveness. For the first point, "All have turnedaside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not evenone" ( Psalm 14:3 ).And when God looks down from heaven he sees that "they have together become corrupt;there is no one who does good, not even one" ( Psalm 53:2-3 ).Many such passages could be cited. And for the second point, "If you, O Lord, kept arecord of sins, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness" ( Psalm 130:3-4 ).The end of Micah's prophecy emphasizes that God is a God "who pardons sin andforgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance" and that he"delights to show mercy" ( 7:18-20 ).

Sometimes we find the thought that God imputes righteousness to people. He did this toAbraham, who believed God "and he credited it to him as righteousness" ( Gen 15:6 ). AgainPhinehas took decisive action so that the plague was checked and "This was creditedto him as righteousness" ( Psalm 106:31 ;Phinehas is described in the words, "as zealous as I am for my honor among them," Num 25:11 ).And the prophet can say, "He who vindicates (or justifies) me is near" ( Isa 50:8 ).

The New Testament. When we turn to the New Testament we must be clear that therighteousness and justification terminology is to be understood in the light of its Hebrewbackground, not in terms of contemporary Greek ideas. We see this, for example, in thewords of Jesus who speaks of people giving account on the day of judgment: "by yourwords you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned" ( Matt 12:37 ; theword NIV translates "acquitted" is the one Paul normally uses for"justified" ). Those acquitted on the day of judgment are spoken of as "therighteous" ( Matt25:37 ; they go into "eternal life, " v. 46 ).

The verb translated "to justify" clearly means "to declarerighteous." It is used of God in a quotation, which the New International Versionrenders "So that you may be proved right when you speak" ( Rom 3:4 ; the NRSV hasmore exactly, "So that you may be justified in your words" ). Now God cannot be"made righteous"; the expression obviously means "shown to berighteous" and this helps us see that when the word is applied to believers it doesnot mean "made righteous"; it signifies "declared righteous, ""shown to be in the right, " or the like.

Paul is fond of the concept of justification; indeed for him it is the characteristicway of referring to the central truth of the gospel. He makes much more use of the conceptthan do the other writers of the New Testament. This does not mean that he has a differentunderstanding of the gospel; it is the same gospel that he proclaims, the gospel that thedeath of Christ on the cross has opened a way of salvation for sinners. But he uses theconcept of justification to express it whereas the other writers prefer other terms. Hesays, "Just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, soalso through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous" ( Rom 5:19 ). We shouldnot understand "were made sinners" in any such sense as "were compelled tobe sinners." It signifies "were constituted sinners, " "were reckonedas sinners." Paul is saying that the whole human race is caught up in the effect ofAdam's sin; now all are sinners. Paul speaks of God "who justifies the wicked" ( Rom 4:5 ): it is notpeople who have merited their salvation of whom he writes, but people who had no claim onsalvation. It was "while we were still sinners" that Christ died for us ( Rom 5:8 ). But theeffect of Christ's saving work is that now all believers are "made righteous, ""accepted by God as righteous."

Paul insists that people are not justified by what they themselves do. Justification isnot the result of the infusion of new life into people, but comes about when they believe.The apostle points to the important example of Abraham, the great forbear of the Jewishrace, as one who was not justified by works ( Rom 4:2-3 ). And, ofcourse, if Abraham was not justified by works, then who could possibly be? SpecificallyPaul says, "a man is not justified by observing the law"; indeed, "byobserving the law no one will be justified" ( Gal 2:16 ; cf. also Gal 3:11 ).

There is something of a problem in that, whereas Paul says quite plainly thatjustification is by faith and not by works, James holds that "a person is justifiedby what he does and not by faith alone" ( 2:24 ). Jameschooses Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who were justified by works ( James 2:21 James 2:25 ). Hepoints out that Abraham "offered his son Isaac on the altar" and that Rahablodged the spies and sent them away.

But we should notice that both these Old Testament worthies are elsewhere singled outas examples of faith. Paul cited Abraham to establish the truth that we are justified byfaith rather than by works. Indeed, he quotes Scripture, "Abraham believed God, andit was credited to him as righteousness" ( Rom 4:3 , citing Gen 15:6 ; he citesit again in v. 22 ). In Romans 4 Paul has a strong argument that it was not works thatcommended the patriarch to God, but faith: Abraham is, for Paul, the classic example of aman who believed and who was accepted by God because of his faith. And the writer to theHebrews says plainly that it was "by faith" that Rahab welcomed the spies ( Heb 11:31 ).

If we look more closely at what James says we see that he is not arguing for works in the absence of faith, but rather for works as the evidence of faith. "Show me your faith without deeds, " he writes, "and I will show you my faith by what I do" ( 2:18 ) and goes on to cite the demons who believe that there is one God as examples of the kind of faith he deprecates. James is sure that saving faith transforms the believer so that good works necessarily follow; and he complains about people who say they have faith, butwhose lives show quite plainly that they have not been saved. When people have savingfaith God transforms their lives and James' point is that in the absence of thistransformation we have no reason for thinking that those who profess to be believersreally have saving faith. We should not overlook the fact that James as well as Paulquotes Genesis 15:6 to make it clear that Abraham was justified by faith. And we shouldbear in mind that this was many years before he offered Isaac on the altar; indeed it wasbefore Isaac was born. While the offering of Isaac showed that Abraham was justified, hisjustification, even on James' premises, took place long before the act that showed itspresence.

And we must say much the same about Paul. He certainly calls vigorously for faith, buthe calls equally vigorously for lives of Christian service. And when he writes, "Theonly thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love" ( Gal 5:6 ), he issaying something with which James would surely agree. For James says, "I will showyou my faith by what I do" ( 2:18 ).

Paul continually emphasizes the importance of justification by faith. In his sermon atAntioch in Pisidia he points out that "through Jesus the forgiveness of sins isproclaimed to you" and immediately adds, "Through him everyone who believes isjustified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses" ( Acts 13:38-39 ).More than once he quotes the words from Habbakuk 2:4, "the righteous will live byfaith" ( Rom 1:17 ; Gal 3:11 ; cf.also Gal 2:16 ; Heb 10:38 ). Hesays explicitly that justification is by faith and not by observing the law ( Rom 3:28 ), or simplythat "we have been justified through faith" ( Rom 5:1 ).

Paul does not, of course, argue that faith is a meritorious act that of itself bringsabout justification. He is not saying that if we believe strongly enough we somehow getrid of our sins. But real faith means trust in God and when we trust God we are open tothe divine power that works in us to make us the sort of people we ought to be and toaccomplish the divine purpose. When we insist on our own moral performance we cutourselves off from the good that God works in believers.

At the center of Paul's religion is the cross of Jesus, and faith means trusting thecrucified Lord. Thus Paul says that Jesus "was delivered over to death for our sinsand was raised to life for our justification" ( Rom 4:25 ). We shouldnot, of course, put too strong a distinction between the effects of Jesus' death and theeffects of his resurrection. Paul is saying that Jesus' death and resurrection meant acomplete dealing with sins and a perfectly accomplished justification. We are"justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus"( Rom 3:24 ), whichmeans that Jesus' atoning death is critically important in our justification. Similarly weare justified "by his grace" ( Rom 3:24 ), "byhis blood" ( Rom5:9 ), "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" ( 1 Cor 6:11 ), and"in Christ" ( Gal 2:17 ), which areall ways of saying that it is the saving work of Jesus that brings about the justificationof sinners.

Salvation by the way of the cross was so that God would be "just and the one whojustifies the man who has faith in Jesus" ( Rom 3:26 ). This willbe in mind also in the reference to God as presenting Christ "as a sacrifice ofatonement (better, "a propitiation") through faith in his blood" ( Rom 3:25 ). That weare "justified by his blood" ( Rom 5:9 ) points tothe same truth: It is the death of Jesus that makes us right with God. This is the meaningalso when we read that we are "justified by his grace" ( Titus 3:7 ). It wasGod's good gift that brought justification, his "one act of righteousness" inChrist that effected it ( Romans 5:16 Romans 5:18 ).Another way of putting it is that the saved are saved not because of their ownrighteousness (they are sinners), but because of the righteousness that is from God andwhich they receive by faith ( Php 3:9 ; cf. 2 Col 5:21 ).

It is plain from the New Testament teaching throughout that justification comes to thesinner by the atoning work of Jesus and that this is applied to the individual sinner byfaith. That God pardons and accepts believing sinners is the truth that is enshrined inthe doctrine of justification by faith. Justification Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Romans 5:1-2
1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


Let us remember the previous posts, Jesus purchased us, for a price. Notice above that Justification used in the Bible is a legal term. Jesus legally and through a cost, purchased legally each one of His Children from spiritual death, into spiritual life.

When we changed 'masters' we officially changed ownership from children of satan and sin, to Children of God and righteousness. To make each of us righteous, Christ Justifies us (Christ declares us righteous, by GIVING US His righteousness). So we become righteous not by anything we did, but because of who our master is that bought us for a price.

The New Covenant is considered a legal covenant between us and God and God cannot break His Covenant and since He purchased us for a price, we are His and cannot break the Covenant either.

Now at this point, in order to loose our salvation, Christ MUST remove His Justification from us, which would mean breaking the New Covenant.

Can God break the New Covenant?



I'm a holy ghost believer. TBH this is good information but this can still fit in with a non OSAS believer is the problem. Like in the apostolic/pentecostal religion we believe the old stuff didn't work... we agree that it wasn't perfect. The only part I would say I disagree with is that it ends with justification, I believe the next part is adoption which comes with the holy ghost. I'm not saying you have to agree with my beliefs on salvation i'm just showing you how this fits fine with a non OSAS belief.

Also wouldn't the two master thing only support a Non OSAS belief? And this comment I made earlier? That you can maintain salvation as long as you sustain yourself and continue to bear fruits and do follow christ and not choose evil?

"I believe it's a mixture of both because god doesn't force us to stay with him, but if we choose to stay with him then we can remain saved. He says we must choose good or evil. You can be saved your whole life sure, but you you must be consistent in your walk for that to happen. The highway of upright departures from evil they that keepeth their way persevere their soul."


Sure justification is permanent which is why I believe OSAS works with a water baptism (simply washing away sins we are born with thanks to the cross) or accept JESUS belief system. But adoption (for holy ghost believers) is permanent only if we stay christ like and continue to grow every year. Salvation isn't a quick thing we have to work it and develop, but you pointed out you believe this. But yeah I believe in the most belief systems though OSAS is the only thing that really makes sense though.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Christ justifying us, reconciles us back to the Father.

Romans 5:9-11
9 Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10 For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.


Because of Jesus Christ giving us His righteousness we have now received reconciliation. Notice that 'we have now received' is in the present tense. That is not something that happens to the Christian later, after death, that they are reconciled back to the Father. It happens immediately after Christ justifies them. And remember that justification is a legal term so it is not something that God takes back because it is permanant.

Romans 5:15-19
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16 Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!



So we can see in these verses that we have been given a gift. The people that believe that salvation can be lost, believe that God takes away the gift from us because of sin, but Notice what God's Word says about the gifts of God.


Romans 11:29

29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.


So so far we can see that we have been bought by Jesus Christ for a price. That the Father has given to His Son Jesus Christ ALL that is in heaven and on earth. That through His shed blood that paid for sin, that He has conquered sin.

Then Christ gives us the gift of salvation by justifying us by giving us His righteousness which reconciles us back to the Father/God.

Romans 5:20-22

20 The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We will continue in a little while with Romans 6
 
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Aldebaran

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"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." (Romans 4:21).

20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:20-26).


...

Ok. Then what work is it that we perform that is joined to the faith we have in Jesus Christ that would bring life to that faith? Wouldn't that be that we ask him for His forgiveness for our sin, and rely on Him for our continued salvation? I know that's only one work, but so are the examples that you mentioned.
 
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ToBeLoved

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That's what I pointed out earlier, if you believe you are saved through the cross and justification then there's no way to argue other wise. Have to accept osas becuase it ends with justification.

I'm a holy ghost believer. TBH this is good information but this can still fit in with a non OSAS believer is the problem. Like in the apostolic/pentecostal religion we believe the old stuff didn't work... we agree that it wasn't perfect. The only part I would say I disagree with is that it ends with justification, I believe the next part is adoption which comes with the holy ghost. I'm not saying you have to agree with my beliefs on salvation i'm just showing you how this fits fine with a non OSAS belief.

Also wouldn't the two master thing only support a Non OSAS belief? And this comment I made earlier? That you can maintain
Saying that OSAS ends with Justification is just wrong. Who decided that part of the New Covenant was to justify His Children? It surely was not me, I am just writing out the scripture that Jesus and God put into motion.

God could have chose on Judgement Day to justify us or the day we die, but He did not choose too. That is my point. God did what was part of HIS PLAN.

But, I have several more long posts to make, my position doesn't end with justification, there is much more that proves God has us forever!

I am sharing theologically, what I see and read IN THE BIBLE that has convinced me OSAS is true. God took a specific legal term from the Old Testament and Covenant and used it in the New Covenant because God wanted it to be a legal term, not I. I don't get to choose anything.

I am a servant of God, I make no choices about what God does. God TELLS me what He does.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Saying that OSAS ends with Justification is just wrong. Who decided that part of the New Covenant was to justify His Children? It surely was not me, I am just writing out the scripture that Jesus and God put into motion.

I am sharing theologically, what I see and read IN THE BIBLE that has convinced me OSAS is true. God took a specific legal term from the Old Testament and Covenant and used it in the New Covenant because God wanted it to be a legal term, not I. I don't get to choose anything.

I am a servant of God, I make no choices about what God does. God TELLS me what He does.


So you're suggesting that humans are not like Adam any more. That now humans are controlled by GOd in a sense? THat humans don't make choices when it comes to good or evil??? IF so k i'm just wondering if that's what you're saying here. I could be wrong but this seems like hte only way I can make of a belief in where God does everything without human intervention.


ALso if it doesn't end with justification then what is the next step in your faith. If you're about to present that then nvm don't answer it right now but yeah would like to see that. Curious
 
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ToBeLoved

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So you're suggesting that humans are not like Adam any more. That now humans are controlled by GOd in a sense? THat humans don't make choices when it comes to good or evil??? IF so k i'm just wondering if that's what you're saying here. I could be wrong but this seems like hte only way I can make of a belief in where God does everything without human intervention.


ALso if it doesn't end with justification then what is the next step in your faith. If you're about to present that then nvm don't answer it right now but yeah would like to see that. Curious

No. That is not correct at all.

We still do all the things that we do, but when God looks at our sin record, it is His Son's righteousness and perfection that He see's, not us. Because Christ gives us, through justification, His righteousness.

So you could think of it like Jesus jumps in and said I gave them my righteousness, don't judge them, look at Me. And Jesus is perfect and has made each of us perfect.
 
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Neogaia777

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Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

So I have read both sides thoroughly, and the problem is this: the side that believes "once saved always saved", I think, has the superior holistic view of all Scripture. The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell, so the risk of believing OSAS is the greatest so you'd better be right. The other problem is that no matter how you feel about what God should do - it's irrelevant - whether you think something is right or not doesn't make it true. If you are confronted by God and God tells you you're wrong, you do not have the luxury of arguing with Him. Too many people believe in an interpretation based on what they feel is right.

Lastly: people need to realize that whatever you believe is just an interpretation of the Word - it doesn't mean it IS the Word, even though you quote the Bible. Both sides of the debate quote the SAME VERSES, but have different interpretations. It disappoints me when I read a website quoting all these verses as if their interpretation is correct without bothering to address the other side's interpretation of those same verses (and acting as if the other side has never seen those verses before).

I believe this is a difficult subject and therefore we must carefully and prayerfully ask God to give us the complete understanding of salvation.

So what do I want? I want a careful discussion of the controversial verses of salvation and whether you can lose it. And by careful I mean - let's not approach this with a presupposition and refuse to budge from it. Let's approach it from an attitude of seeking the truth realizing that we may be on the wrong side of it.

I think this is the most important subject in this entire site. There's no point in debating theology if we're not truly saved, therefore we should really really get this theology right.

I will begin stating my opinions in the next post. Thanks.
The only way you can lose your salvation (I'm assuming you mean for heaven) is for your faith, your belief in God/Jesus to become unbelief...

Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail him, cause this was the principle issue, and he knew Satan sought to sift his soul as wheat, to test his faith to the limit... It's OK, while your faith is being tested to go through moments of doubt or even thinking God isn't very good or fair, and even voicing that to or with him, while your faith is under test, as long as you don't lose it completely AND, it does not stay that way permanently...

The enemy takes a risk in getting permission to test your faith, cause, you might succumb to doubts that could potentially crush your faith (which is his, the enemies, hope) but, he also knows it can backfire on him, in that it could refine and strengthen your faith, if you come out on top (which is God's hope and what he knows about it)...

God Bless!
 
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ToBeLoved

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Probably because extreme examples such as mine are the ones which tend to be the most black and white scenarios imaginable for establishing a paradigm of morality.
But we have God's Word. It must be only people who do not trust God's Word to be their paradigm, because God is my paradigm.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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No. That is not correct at all.


Well you didn't present your side in a clear way tbh so I had to assume things.

We still do all the things that we do, but when God looks at our sin record, it is His Son's righteousness and perfection that He see's, not us. Because Christ gives us, through justification, His righteousness.


So you could think of it like Jesus jumps in and said I gave them my righteousness, don't judge them, look at Me. And Jesus is perfect and has made each of us perfect.


wow... uh wow well


We still do all the things that we do

My question: So salvation doesn't work?


but when God looks at our sin record

My Response: the bible says blessed is a man whose iniquities are forgiven and who's sins are covered though. Shouldn't be a sin record if salvation works (I believe it does). Now if we decide to turn away or backslide that's differnet. IF we choose to turn back on salvation then yeah sure. I believe once we are adopted by christ and we walk in this newness we are able to change. I believe if any man be in christ he is a new creature, and old things pass away and all things become new.



it is His Son's righteousness and perfection that He see's, not us. Because Christ gives us, through justification, His righteousness.

My Question: I guess my question then is are you suggesting there isn't such thing as a sinner and christian? YOu believe he sees sinners as christians? what?





So you could think of it like Jesus jumps in and said I gave them my righteousness, don't judge them, look at Me. And Jesus is perfect and has made each of us perfect.


My response: So you believe in the scriptures that talk about JESUS being a meditator but you take it to a whole new level... you believe in a eternal grace insurance policy, no matter what someone does JESUS covers them.


My question: So are you saying no one goes to hell then? I'm ultimately trying to figure out this position, i've never heard an explanation like this before (why I said wow) so trying to figure out your belief.
 
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Salvation requires that we believe and confess that Jesus Christ the Savior is risen from the dead, and that we keep (obey) His commandments -- all of them. Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ plainly speaks of sheep and goats in the judgment. His sheep are those who keep His commandments and the goats are those who don't, even if they had deceived themselves in this regard.

Don't be deceived. Repent! Believe in Jesus Christ and keep all of His commandments strictly for the sake of pleasing Him, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. For the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit) is at hand! It's just that simple (Romans 14:17) (Luke 17:21).
 
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