Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[ToBeLoved]

Hi Jason, I was trying to follow your thinking that there is a difference between Old Covenant Law which supposedly we are not to follow any more and the New Covenant Laws, which according to you we are supposed to follow.

There are only two New Covenant commandments. The two Jesus gave us.

We are 'commanded' other things, but that is not comparable to the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant.

You must compare Jesus two commandments to the 10 Law of Moses commandments. That is the proper comparsion, not the way others are explaining some 613 laws or something.

Commandments are not commands. Commandments are HIGHER than commands.

Although commands are important and can and do lead to sin. Don't let someone carry you off into Neverland.

The "Law"(Moses, 10 Commandments) is not law (lowercase). Details are important.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Please Jason, take some time to address this, these sins: "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying" will send you to hell according to non-OSAS believers. If so, no-one can make it because these are common every-day sins.

Remember for those in CHRIST and saved by His blood and righteousness, all FORGIVEN sin, is no longer held against them.

So someone can do these sins, but if they repent and are forgiven by Christ, then that sin is cast away and never to be mentioned again. So if they are forgiven, they are not held to having done that thing, which is how we all get to heaven even though we have done some of these.

Psalm 103:12
12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
http://biblehub.com/strongs.htm
Hebrews 8:12
12 For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more.”

Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.

Jeremiah 31:34
"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."



There are more too. Don't let someone else get it twisted for you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The OT laws were more difficult to follow Tha the NT laws?

So it is easier not to commit adultery than it is to look at a woman with lust in your eye?

And the OT laws were more difficult to follow for they concerned rituals and observances.
Are you serious?
That law could be faultlessly obeyed, Pharisees faultlessly obeyed it.
It was the Moral law that could not be faultlessly obeyed, and Christ upped that law.

Your post is way off

Preach my brother!

I hate bad theology when they teach others bad theology.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, thanks for engaging

Hello HatGuy.

I love a good discussion back and forth with God's Word with other believers.
However, I do it to help others and I do it so as to stay in God's Word.
So it is my pleasure to help.

Two things here.

Firstly, I think to post so many scriptures at once is unhelpful to the discussion. Each of those have to be discussed in their context and placing. It's impossible to do that adequately in a forum where we have to write responses to each other. Quoting so many scriptures can be helpful for a sermon

I suppose we are different in this regards. If it was me, I would say that I would reply to such verses over a period of time or I would do so all at once. I am passionate for God's Word and I would not let the challenge of a long list of verses prevent me from replying with God's Word in return. After all, it is not like I would be lifting any heavy weights or anything like that. For me it is a joy to talk about God's Word because many times I learn things myself in the process of doing so.

How about picking 2-3 on that list from the Old Testament and then picking 2-3 on that list from the New Testament (so as to explain them to me). Because from my perspective, not explaining any of them makes it seem like you are simply not wanting to see what these verses are saying plainly.

(I see you've pasted that from one of your own sermons on your podcast ) but I don't believe it's helpful in the forum medium.

I don't have a podcast, nor any videos. Currently, I just write here, my friend.
Granted, one day I would like to do videos (in the upcoming future).

What I find more helpful in this medium is to just look at some core scriptures and try and get to the heart of things, understand the overall narrative, so we can all read the Bible better for ourselves.

Secondly, you have quoted scriptures that speak about repentance. One must not assume that a person struggling with a sin is not also repenting of it. See, here's the difference: someone who does not repent of their sin is obviously in danger of also losing their faith, but someone struggling with a sin is in a whole different area. Their struggle is a hint that they are repentant, but are struggling to stop nonetheless.

It is true that a believer can struggle with sin and be repentant of it. The Parable of the Tax Collector shows us this. However, the person who stops repenting in my opinion is on dangerous ground, though. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. No confession means no forgiveness of sins (if they were to die in that moment and did not confess or repent of their sins according to 1 John 1:9). In fact, believers have instantly did things that strongly displeased God (whereby their destruction was quick and immediate) before they even had a chance to repent.

Ananais and Sapphira both lied to the Spirit and they were instantly killed.
A great fear fell upon the church and all who heard it (Acts 5:1-11).

Fear. Fear fell upon the church; There was no joy and peace that fell upon the church that Ananaias and Sapphira were safely in the arms of Jesus.
Fear is an emotion that expresses that something bad had happened to them. For if the church knew they were saved, they would be sad (because they would miss them and because they did not get to do all things for God here); But the church would not be in fear if these two were saved. That emotion does not make any sense for saved people.

Oh, and yes. Ananaias and Sapphira were true believers (who were once saved at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2) (Acts 2:41).
Besides, why would God have anything to do with them involving the apostles if they were unbelievers? Were they treated like unbelievers or believers?

Also, Peter told Simon the sorcerer to repent of his wickedness and pray that God would forgive him (Acts 8:22).

This analogy isn't quite workable for Christians. Here's why: the scripture promises that we have been given a new heart when we come to faith in Christ. Fear of punishment is for unbelievers, but fear of God is for believers. These are two different things.

While believers are given a new heart and a new spirit by God so as to do good, their free will also remains intact. They can still choose to do good or evil. This means believers can fight against the new man and Christ living within them and fall into sin whereby they need to repent of it. If they refuse to repent under the conviction of the Spirit, then they are rebelling against God.

Oh, and yes. Believers DO fear God in the New Testament.

Paul says,
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Why all the trembling if Paul is not talking about fear here?

Jesus says,
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. "Gehenna", which is the Lake of Fire]."

So we are told not to fear those who kill the body, but we are told to fear him [i.e. Jesus] who has the power to destroy both our soul and body in the Lake of Fire. "Fear" not in the sense of Eternal Torment, but fear that are soul and body will be destroyed as Jesus said. Destroyed or erased from existence and the pain that would be involved shortly before our destruction.

Again, you mention repentance. I don't think anyone would say that there must be no repentance. But one can be repentant and be struggling with an addictive sin. How will you deal with them?

With love and prayer and by giving them the Word of God to help them to overcome. But obviously they cannot remain in that state for years on end. There has to be change at some point. God will gain the victory in their life. For the Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

See, it makes little sense to say this: if a man has lived in faith and repentance and has lived righteously all his life, but has a lustful thought for one moment while driving, and his rubbernecking causes him to crash into another car and die, that he will go to hell because there wasn't time to say 'sorry'. If you believe he will, you've just negated faith and made salvation by works.

It is not salvation by man directed works because NONE of the good work a believer does is exclusively their own that they can boast about. It is God's work (or will) done thru you. Jesus said there is none good but God. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). So it is only the Lord working in a person who does the good. I cannot do good on my own without God. Oh sure, a person can imitate goodness; But this would not be the true goodness that God works thru His people. God working thru you does not negate faith in Christ's work. One work of God does not negate another work of God.

As for dying in a car accident before getting a chance to repent. Well, the Scriptures essentially say God is the giver and taker of life. So it is not like some accident happened that was outside of God's control. God is sovereign. God could have made you to drop your keys to prevent you from getting in an accident. Nothing happens without His say so. All people's day of death is determined by God (Unless of course they were to be Raptured). Can a person contribute to their early death like taking harmful drugs? Sure, they can. But again, it is ultimately God that decides on the day, hour, minute, and second, that they die. Even suicide can be prevented with God's intervention if that is His will.

So if God ends a person's life before they had a chance to confess their sins, then that means God knows their heart and future in what they will do (and it will not be good). It is the same reason why God saves babies. I believe all babies that are killed (are souls that God had handpicked that he knew would be faithful to Him anyways in this life). God is sovereign over His creation. Yes, people have free will. But God knows who are His and who are not His before He even put forth the first atoms within His creation when He spoke it into existence. God can place any soul in whatever time, land, and circumstance he sees fit (that best suits that person).

But the Bible is clear that salvation is by faith, which leads to righteous works.

Not in dispute with that. We have faith in Jesus without works in our initial salvation. From there, the righteous works of the Lord work thru the believer. The believer either chooses to allow God to work thru them or not. But good works will be evident in a believer's life because it is the proof in the pudding that God or Christ lives within them. But the ultimate source of salvation is not actually faith. Faith is merely the vehicle that gets us to the source of salvation. That source of salvation is Jesus Christ Himself. For it is written,
"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (1 John 5:12). So the best way to think of salvation is by thinking that we have to abide in Jesus and His good ways (According to having faith in His Word - The Bible; For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God - Romans 10:17).

I'm glad you brought up Adam and Eve's sin. This goes to the very core of the problem IMO.

See, their sin was initiated by their unbelief. Unbelief causes sin. Sin is the symptom, unbelief the cause. They listened to the serpent's word rather than God's Word. They wanted to be 'like God', knowing good and evil - they wanted to have their own righteousness rather than God's righteousness. ('knowing' good and evil in the Hebrew points towards 'discerning' and actually deciding on good and evil, being judge of these matters). The original sin was unbelief in God and self-righteousness.

Unbelief might have led them to sin, but it was not the original sin itself.
The actual sin itself was the act of Adam eating of the tree. In other words, this is one of those instances that this type of sin was not like committing adultery in one's heart. Adam fell when he bit of the fruit and not before. For God said,

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

So God said to Adam, in the day you eat thereof, you will surely die (and not before).

Now for the positive part:

The ESV puts it this way: "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." (Romans 14:23). So here we see my point is illustrated: faith leads to righteousness, unbelief leads to sin.

Yes, even sins done in the moment are based on lustful desires outside of the faith.

For James says,
14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15).

This means that righteousness does not lead to faith. In fact, righteousness without faith will not get anyone anywhere with God. Since the scripture is saying that anything that does not proceed from faith is sin. Anything. So it is only righteousness from faith that counts for anything.

Nowhere am I proposing that we put the cart before the horse.
Nowhere did I say we can deny salvation in Jesus by faith first in order to be initially and ultimately saved. For if we slip up, do we go out and do another work to get cleansed? No. We go to Jesus and confess our sins to Him so He can cleanse us and forgive us (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). But 1 John 1:7 also says if we have to walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. In other words, after having faith in Jesus that He saves you, you have to have faith in HIS WORDS of what He commanded you to do, too. If not, then we are just being our own lords and masters. Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). John says he that says he knows Him [Jesus] and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).

Thankfully, there's (God's) "righteousness for anyone who believes". (Romans 10:11.) Note what brings the righteousness: belief. Faith. I don't take this scripture to refer only to imputed righteousness, but a living righteousness - imparted and infused. It is for those who have faith and continue to live in faith and continue to grow in faith. As your faith grows, so does your righteousness. This righteousness only comes by faith. You cannot conjure up actual righteousness of the Jesus kind without belief and trust in Jesus as the core and foundation, as he is the Spirit that activates it, the Spirit of the law living in the heart that goes beyond the dead written code of the law but lives inside of you to bear fruit. If you do, you are working in self-righteousness-works mode and basically just repeating the original sin. Righteousness if given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:22.)

What do you mean by faith? Faith in what? Where do we get faith from? How is that faith lived out?

I would say that we have faith in Jesus and His Word always. They are in harmony with each other. Jesus's and His follower's commands is a part of that faith. You can no more cut out the commands from Jesus Christ and having faith in Him than say to cut out the wetness from rain. They are co-mingled together. Jesus and His commands go together. Sort of like peaches and cream, peanut butter and jelly, and man and woman. When John 3:16 tells us that, "whosever believes on Him [i.e. the Son]", it is talking about believing not only on the person of Jesus Christ, and the work He has done for us, but it is also talking about believing on everything He commanded us to do, too. If we do not believe those commands in Scripture that come from Jesus, we are in unbelief. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). So when I act on the words of Jesus (already believing and trusting that He is my Savior), then I continuing to have EVEN MORE faith because I putting into practice my faith in Jesus and what He commanded me to do (By His power and working within me).

Faith and sin are not opposite. Faith and unbelief are opposite. Unbelief leads to sin, faith leads to righteousness.

In a manner of speaking they are.
Pealing back the layers of the onion we see:

#1. Obeying God's Commandments (works) is a part of the faith
(James 2:17) (Hebrews 11:8).

#2. Breaking God's Commandments is a part of unbelief (Which is also sin)
(1 John 3:4).

For faith comes by hearing the Word. Are you hearing the Word on obeying God's Commands? Can a person obey God's Commands without having faith? Not really. Even repentance and believing on Jesus Christ are both Commands from God (Acts 17:30) (1 John 3:23). Yes, faith comes first by believing in Jesus and trusting in Him. But what are we trusting Him to do? We are trusting Him by faith to help us to obey what He has commanded us to do. We pray and ask for His help to transform us and to help us to obey. We then trust by faith that God will help us to perform and that He is good. But it also takes additional faith to obey God's commands. For there are many out there today who do not believe the Scriptures on God's Commands within the New Testament. They need to BELIEVE those many commands. For when a person truly "believes" it is when they act upon that belief.

For example: If God told me to sit in a wooden rocking chair on my porch that I knew would not hold my weight and God told me to sit in it (because it is safe to do so), would I being having faith in Him if I said I believe Him and yet I did not do what He said? That's the point. There are many commands given to us by God in Scripture. People are not having faith in those verses and they are not believing them! That's the problem.

Yes, sin is lawlessness. But Christ appeared to take away sins. (verse 5.) The significance of this is that we are not encouraged to take away our own sin, but to trust Christ to do it.

There is no forgiveness if somebody does not confess and forsake their sins (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, and Matthew 12:41, cf. Jonah 3:6-10). While God can help us by our asking and trusting Him, we do also have to eventually take action ourselves (in cooperating with God in the good work He wants to do thru you).

You're switching from 'faith' to 'THE faith'. Well, THE faith is not the same thing. THE faith is Christianity, FAITH is actually living it.

Yes. I am not in disagreement that faith is something that performs.

We are in agreement here. So let's summarise where we are in agreement.

1. We both seem to believe that one only comes to Christ in initial salvation through believing in Christ, and not by works.
2. We both believe that Jesus will sanctify us 'through and through.' We both seem to believe in Christian perfection, or entire sanctification, or whatever it is you might call it.

Yes, if you believe it is possible to stop sinning in this life, then we are in agreement on the above.

3. Where we disagree is exactly the degree to which sin endangers someone to hell. Or, shall we say, the nature of the Law.

Well, Scripture repeatedly says that certain sins can cause one to go to hell or to lose their salvation. Please carefully read these verses and do not dismiss them out of hand.

Jesus says,
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

Jesus says,
28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

Jesus says,
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

Jesus says,
“36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
(Matthew 12:36-37).

Jesus says,
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24).

Paul says,
19 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Paul says,
5 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.” (Colossians 3:5-7).

John says,
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15).

John says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,
“41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Matthew 25:41-46).

Jesus says,
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26).

John says,
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

As for the rest of what you had written, I will have to respond to it another time.

May God's love shine upon you.
And may you please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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[ToBeLoved]

Hello HatGuy.

It is my pleasure to help.

Hatguy said thank you for engaging. Engaging is not necessarily help nor helpful.

Just to clarify. I don't find your posts to be a help, nor helpful. Bad theology is not a help at all but destroys the things of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here are the Bible quotes:
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
1 Cor 6:9-10
Col 3:5 gives the definition of "idolatry" which is in all lists that non-OSAS believers use to argue you can lose salvation: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness

Please Jason, take some time to address this, these sins: "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying" will send you to hell according to non-OSAS believers. If so, no-one can make it because these are common every-day sins. Please be honest about this and don't argue out of this and discuss this with me earnestly (don't digress by giving me another list - just address the above list): how is it possible for ANYONE to be saved since everyone commits these sins several times a day? It is a great burden because even thought-crime can send you to hell according to your interpretation of the sermon on the mount.

I tell you the truth, if thought-crime (of "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying" sins) can send you to hell according to your non-OSAS interpretation of the sermon on the mount, then you MUST pray that Catholic prayer that goes through every sin that you might have committed in a day, and then you MUST pray that maybe 5 times a day in case you die during the day to be assured that you don't lose salvation.

The OT laws are much easier to follow (forget about punishments for not following them, that is irrelevant) because outward shows of religiosity is something many people can clearly accomplish (see all the religious people around the world). I contend that NOBODY can be sinless in "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying" - we are all condemned if committing them send us to hell.

But if you interpret those verses another way, that they're merely saying that "by the way, these sins send you to hell if you rely on the law of righteousness - in other words, all are condemned, but don't apply to those who are saved by grace", then you are now free to love God and obey God. Clearly many people are able to quite easily and logically argue that perspective, and if one is to objectively assess the merit of ANY argument, one must forget one's own presuppositions and have an honest look at what the other side is saying (without confusing it with one's own biases).

The problem I find with almost everyone on this thread is no-one is willing to forego their presuppositions and give an honest look at the other side's arguments. They hold so tightly to their own paradigms and refuse to budge. How will you know whether your side is the right side or not unless you give it up, in order to allow you to have a fresh set of eyes to what the other side is saying?

I am honestly doing that with both sides, but those 5 every-day sins above are tripping me up. If they send you to hell, then you WILL end up a life of praying several times a day asking for forgiveness for everything under the sun, because who knows you may have committed a sin you didn't know about. Believing in the non-OSAS belief will result in a life of constant fear of loss of salvation if we are honest with ourselves about the implications of what the Bible says based on a non-OSAS perspective.

I am sorry. I don't believe we agree and I do not think you are looking to change. Your still talking about the Catholic religion (of which I do not agree with). In this case, I cannot help you. Only God can do that. Pray to Him and ask for His help on this matter.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hatguy said thank you for engaging. Engaging is not necessarily help nor helpful.

Just to clarify. I don't find your posts to be a help, nor helpful. Bad theology is not a help at all but destroys the things of God.

Thank you for the insult.
I will rejoice in God my Savior.


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[ToBeLoved]

Thank you for the insult.
I will rejoice in God my Savior.


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It was a clarification. You seem to be taking it as an insult.

I just want people to know that your theology is not as good as you present it to be. If that is an insult, better theology is good.

 

[supescritter]

I am sorry. I don't believe we agree and I do not think you are looking to change. Your still talking about the Catholic religion (of which I do not agree with). In this case, I cannot help you. Only God can do that. Pray to Him and ask for His help on this matter.


...

huh? I don't understand. What do you mean "we don't agree and I'm not looking to change" - that is very judgmental of you - I am asking your opinion and clarification on a matter. This has been my struggle all along: that if you believe that you can lose your salvation, THEN IT MEANS YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION several times in a day, because everybody commits "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying" sins several times a day.

The verses I quoted:
Revelation 21:8 (murder (anger), corrupt, idolators (see Col 3:5 for definition of idolatry), cowards, liars go to hell)
1 Cor 6:9-10 (thieves (covetousness), greedy, sexually immoral, slanderers (gossipers) go to hell)
Col 3:5 (gives the definition of "idolatry"; "idolatry" is in all lists that non-OSAS believers use to argue you can lose salvation: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness)
1 John 2: 16: (pride sends you to hell)

.. indicate that the following sins send you to hell: "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying"

My question is: how is anyone supposed to live with a confidence of salvation if these common sins can send you to hell? My question is: how do we practically apply the above verses? If, according to your interpretation of the sermon on the mount, that thought-crime will send you to hell - then we have to constantly pray throughout the day for forgiveness for sins we know, and sins we don't know. This is a serious matter - according to non-OSAS beliefs, "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying" sins send you to hell - that behooves us to constantly pray many times a day for forgiveness, does it not?

I believe that if you truly believe that you can lose your salvation, then you must pray SOMETHING LIKE the Catholic prayer, because "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying" covers menial sins - it covers every little imperfection we have, so we basically have to go through a list and think to ourselves whether we sinned in this way or that (eg. maybe we were driving, saw a nice car and thought it would be nice to have something like that - whammo - you're going to hell because you coveted it).

Am I wrong? Which of the 6 sins above will not send you to hell (based on the verses I quoted)? I'm a little disappointed in your answer because I am earnestly seeking your opinion on the matter, and you just dismissed my entire post as not trying to change. If I ask a question, it's because I want to learn what you think. If your interpretation of scripture is correct, then I must apply it. I am earnestly seeking the truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

huh? I don't understand. What do you mean "we don't agree and I'm not looking to change" - that is very judgmental of you - I am asking your opinion and clarification on a matter. This has been my struggle all along.

The verses I quoted:
Revelation 21:8
1 Cor 6:9-10
Col 3:5 (gives the definition of "idolatry"; "idolatry" is in all lists that non-OSAS believers use to argue you can lose salvation: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness)

.. indicate that the following sins send you to hell: "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying"

My question is: how is anyone supposed to live with a confidence of salvation if these common sins can send you to hell? My question is a practical application of the above verses. I believe that if you truly believe that you can lose your salvation, then you must pray SOMETHING LIKE the Catholic prayer, because "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying" covers menial sins - it covers every little imperfection we have, so we basically have to go through a list and think to ourselves whether we sinned in this way or that (eg. maybe we were driving, saw a nice car and thought it would be nice to have something like that - whammo - you're going to hell because you coveted it).

Am I wrong? Which of the 6 sins above will not send you to hell (based on the verses I quoted)? I'm a little disappointed in your answer because I am earnestly seeking your opinion on the matter, and you just dismissed my entire post.

I replied to you on this matter, but you are just not accepting what I am saying. I do not believe in the Catholic church and yet you are proposing that such a thing is what I believe when it is not. I said for you to trust God, and His Word alone. Pray to the Lord for help to obey His Commands in the New Testament. Not by some church website, but straight from the Word of God (the Bible).

The Lord will help you to keep His Commands if you seek Him and not a church with it's own teachings that are in addition to the Bible. For the question you ask does not apply to my life and my walk with the Lord because He helps me. I cannot answer the question for you. That is between you and the Lord. But I do know that Jesus CAN deliver you; But you have to seek the Lord with all your heart and seek the Lord's help and not man's help.


....

 

[supescritter]

I replied to you on this matter, but you are just not accepting what I am saying. I do not believe in the Catholic church and yet you are proposing that such a thing is what I believe when it is not. I said for you to trust God, and His Word alone. Pray to the Lord for help to obey His Commands in the New Testament. Not by some church website, but straight from the Word of God (the Bible).

The Lord will help you to keep His Commands if you seek Him and not a church with it's own teachings that are in addition to the Bible. For the question you ask does not apply to my life and my walk with the Lord because He helps me. I cannot answer the question for you. That is between you and the Lord. But I do know that Jesus CAN deliver you; But you have to seek the Lord with all your heart and seek the Lord's help and not man's help.


....

You have not answered the question whatsoever! The first time I mentioned that list of 6 sins, you dismissed it and said there are no biblical references for it. So I provided the Biblical references, and then you dismissed it again and said I am not trying to change. You haven't answered my questions. I am trying to learn, because if those 6 sins can send you to hell then I'd better pray several times a day to avoid sinning. Can those 6 sins send you to hell or not? This is a matter of eternal salvation and I find your dismissive posts very cavalier about such an important subject.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have not answered the question whatsoever! The first time I mentioned that list of 6 sins, you dismissed it and said there are no biblical references for it. So I provided the Biblical references, and then you dismissed it again and said I am not trying to change. You haven't answered my questions. I am trying to learn, because if those 6 sins can send you to hell then I'd better pray several times a day to avoid sinning. Can those 6 sins send you to hell or not? This is a matter of eternal salvation and I find your dismissive posts very cavalier about such an important subject.

Are you Catholic?
Are you seeking Catholic websites for your information on God's Commands?

Your question goes outside the realm of my being able to help answer it entirely for you because I am not Catholic, my friend. I just believe in God and the Bible alone and I do not trust in what some church says. God's Word is my authority. I am telling you that Jesus can deliver you from sin. But you have to seek the Lord and make Him known and not by some church, but by the Word of God, and the Lord alone. Then your question will resolve itself on your own by the Lord.


...

 

[supescritter]

Are you Catholic?
Are you seeking Catholic websites for your information on God's Commands?

Your question goes outside the realm of my being able to help answer it for you because I am not Catholic, my friend. I just believe in God and the Bible alone and I do not trust in what some church says. God's Word is my authority.


...

No, I am not Catholic. And you're missing the point. The Catholic "sins list" is what we would have to pray IF we truly believed we can lose our salvation, because those 6 sins covers every little nitty gritty sin we do several times a day. We would never know/remember all the sins we did that would send us to hell. That list is a good start, because it reminds us of some of the things we might have done.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I am not Catholic. And you're missing the point. The Catholic "sins list" is what we would have to pray IF we truly believed we can lose our salvation, because those 6 sins covers every little nitty gritty sin we do several times a day. We would never know/remember all the sins we did that would send us to hell. That list is a good start, because it reminds us of some of the things we might have done.

Okay, so if you are not Catholic and I am not Catholic, then you should not assume that we have to look to a Catholic source in order to get God's Commandments, right? For God's Commands comes from the Bible and not from some church. So we should look to the Bible for what God says about His Commands. Right? Do you think there are no commandments from God within the New Testament? What do you do when you come across a command from Jesus and His followers when reading the Bible? Do you just like say to yourself that was for them and not for me?

If you keep persisting about how we should have to look to a Catholic source when neither one of us are Catholic, then you are just playing games with me dear sir (in which case if it is true, I will simply strive to avoid you or place you on "Ignore"). For we both know that God's Commands come from the Bible.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

D

You have not answered the question whatsoever! The first time I mentioned that list of 6 sins, you dismissed it and said there are no biblical references for it. So I provided the Biblical references, and then you dismissed it again and said I am not trying to change. You haven't answered my questions. I am trying to learn, because if those 6 sins can send you to hell then I'd better pray several times a day to avoid sinning. Can those 6 sins send you to hell or not? This is a matter of eternal salvation and I find your dismissive posts very cavalier about such an important subject.

As Jason refuses to respond to your question, may I interject?
If you choose as a wilfull lifestyle to be , sexually immoral, an idolator , covetous, etc then you will go to hell.
However, if you hate your imperfections/ sin, you hate them because you are a Christian and the Holy Spirit dwells in you.
It is only possible for sin to condemn you I you live under a law of righteousness. The bible says the christian does not.
Basically, if you in your heart don't want your imperfections you are quite safe. If you wilfully choose a life of sin, and have no conscience at sin you were never born again in the first place

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As Jason refuses to respond to your question, may I interject?
If you choose as a wilfull lifestyle to be a murderer, sexually immoral, an idolator you , covetous, etc then you will go to hell.
However, if you hate your imperfections/ sin, you hate them because you are a Christian and the Holy Spirit dwells in you.
It is only possible for sin to condemn you I you live under a law of righteousness. The bible says the christian does not.
Basically, if you in your heart don't want your imperfections you are quite safe. If you wilfully choose a life of sin, and have no conscience at sin you were never born again in the first place

Well, I actually did answer the question, but he didn't accept it. I said Jesus can deliver Him if he were to seek HIm with all His heart, etc. He kept persisting that I didn't answer it (which is a lie), and then I said well... I am not a Catholic to help him. He was playing a game with me --- making me believe he was Catholic when he was not. He was bearing false witness. This is not an honorable trait for you to support him in.

As for sin leading to hell or not being saved. The New Testament has plenty of verses that shows us this (for those who have ears to ear and eyes to see).

Jesus says,
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

Jesus says,
28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

Jesus says,
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

Jesus says,
“36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
(Matthew 12:36-37).

Jesus says,
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24).

Paul says,
19 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Paul says,
5 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.” (Colossians 3:5-7).

John says,
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15).

John says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,
“41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Matthew 25:41-46).

Jesus says,
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26).

John says,
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I actually did answer the question, but he didn't accept it. I said Jesus can deliver Him if he were to seek HIm with all His heart, etc. He kept persisting that I didn't answer it (which is a lie), and then I said well... I am not a Catholic to help him. He was playing a game with me --- making me believe he was Catholic when he was not. He was bearing false witness. This is not an honorable trait for you to support him in.

As for sin leading to hell or not being saved. The New Testament has plenty of verses that shows us this (for those who have ears to ear and eyes to see).

Jesus says,
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

Jesus says,
28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

Jesus says,
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

Jesus says,
“36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
(Matthew 12:36-37).

Jesus says,
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24).

Paul says,
19 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Paul says,
5 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.” (Colossians 3:5-7).

John says,
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15).

John says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,
“41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Matthew 25:41-46).

Jesus says,
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26).

John says,
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).


...

Well I hope you don't expect me to respond to every verse of scripture you wrote.

Now if you cast out your right eye because you sinned, what is to stop you sinning with your left eye? Jesus didn't mention that eye did he.

As for Jesus commands you quoted
You haven't answered my question yet.
Do you not invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather those Christ described you should invite?

If not, why not, you insist I we love Christ we will obey his literal commands.
No deviation please, a simple HONEST answer is all that is required

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I actually did answer the question, but he didn't accept it. I said Jesus can deliver Him if he were to seek HIm with all His heart, etc. He kept persisting that I didn't answer it (which is a lie), and then I said well... I am not a Catholic to help him. He was playing a game with me --- making me believe he was Catholic when he was not. He was bearing false witness. This is not an honorable trait for you to support him in.

As for sin leading to hell or not being saved. The New Testament has plenty of verses that shows us this (for those who have ears to ear and eyes to see).

Jesus says,
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

Jesus says,
28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

Jesus says,
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

Jesus says,
“36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
(Matthew 12:36-37).

Jesus says,
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24).

Paul says,
19 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Paul says,
5 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.” (Colossians 3:5-7).

John says,
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15).

John says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,
“41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Matthew 25:41-46).

Jesus says,
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26).

John says,
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).


...

I will respond to rev21:8
It speaks of those who were never born again in the first place and chose a life of sin and had no conscience at doing so. Doesn't apply to chrustians

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well I hope you don't expect me to respond to every verse of scripture you wrote.

Now if you cast out your right eye because you sinned, what is to stop you sinning with your left eye? Jesus didn't mention that eye did he.

In life we use literal and metaphorical expressions in the same sentence.

For example: Bob ate like an ox. But later, he went to the bathroom.
Are we to assume that the word "bathroom" is metaphorical because the first sentence was used in a metaphorical way? No.

So are you saying that hell is metaphorical?
Yes, Jesus was speaking parabolically (metaphorically) in regards to plucking out our eye, but there is no indication that hell here is metaphorical. Jesus says in the same chapter, "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Are we to assume he is speaking metaphorical here, too?

What about Matthew 6:15? Jesus says if you do not forgive, the Father will not forgive you. Do we not need forgiveness in order to be saved?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I will respond to rev21:8
It speaks of those who were never born again in the first place and chose a life of sin and had no conscience at doing so. Doesn't apply to chrustians

John says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John makes no mention of another set of people who are an exception to this rule.


...