Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[Bible Highlighter]

How about 1 John 3:15?

According to this verse it is very plain in what it says.
It says if we hate our brother we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So it is saying that if we hate our brother we have no eternal life. This is pretty plain in what it says to me.


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[stuart lawrence]

In life we use literal and metaphorical expressions in the same sentence.

For example: Bob ate like an ox. But later, he went to the bathroom.
Are we to assume that the word "bathroom" is metaphorical because the first sentence was used in a metaphorical way? No.

So are you saying that hell is metaphorical?
Yes, Jesus was speaking parabolically (metaphorically) in regards to plucking out our eye, but there is no indication that hell here is metaphorical. Jesus says in the same chapter, "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Are we to assume he is speaking metaphorical here, too?

What about Matthew 6:15? Jesus says if you do not forgive, the Father will not forgive you. Do we not need forgiveness in order to be saved?


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You didn't respond to the second half of the post.
I can give you credit for not wanting to lie.
However, as you are quoting Jesus, we ho did he reserve his harshest words for?
Religious people who did not practice what they demanded of others.

Concerning Jesus commands.
I will yet again repeat. Paul tells us how to fulfill them, you disagree with him. I will go by Paul

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The list goes on and on.
For how many times does the Bible have to say it before people will see it?


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[stuart lawrence]

John says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John makes no mention of another set of people who are an exception to this rule.


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And i will repeat. If a person hates their imperfections they do so because they have been born again.
They are NOT wilfully seeking a life of sin.
And John also says if we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth I not in us

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You didn't respond to the second half of the post.
I can give you credit for not wanting to lie.
However, as you are quoting Jesus, we ho did he reserve his harshest words for?
Religious people who did not practice what they demanded of others.

Concerning Jesus commands.
I will yet again repeat. Paul tells us how to fulfill them, you disagree with him. I will go by Paul

You didn't reply to many of my verses. Who says I am obligated to respond to everything in your post? You sure didn't do so. But I was being fair when it came to Scripture. You brought up verses, and I would try and reply to them (even though you didn't respond to my verses I put forth).


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[stuart lawrence]

The list goes on and on.
For how many times does the Bible have to say it before people will see it?


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You do realise the measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you i hope

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And i will repeat. If a person hates their imperfections they do so because they have been born again.
They are NOT wilfully seeking a life of sin.
And John also says if we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth I not in us

A person can have good intentions.
But the doctrine itself is the cause of the problem that leads people to think the wrong thing if one does not explain themselves properly.
Also, when a person denies that they can stop sinning when the Bible says that they can do so, then they are setting a standard of righteousness with the bar set lower than what God's Word says. This would be wrong (of course).


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[stuart lawrence]

You didn't reply to many of my verses. Who says I am obligated to respond to everything in your post? You sure didn't do so. But I was being fair when it came to Scripture. You brought up verses, and I would try and reply to them (even though you didn't respond to my verses I put forth).


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If you think I'm going to respond to twenty verses of scripture you are badly mistaken.
But the important point I this.

You, contrary to Paul teaching insist if we love Christ we will obey hus literal commands. But it I just reeling empty statements from your head is it not, for you yourself do not even try and obey them all.
Christ many times stated what he thought of that.
Shall I quote some?

 

[ToBeLoved]

As for Jesus commands you quoted
You haven't answered my question yet.
Do you not invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather those Christ described you should invite?

If not, why not, you insist I we love Christ we will obey his literal commands.
No deviation please, a simple HONEST answer is all that is required

Good point. It is easy for us to love the people we love or even like. But what about those we do not have a relationship with, that is the real test of agape love. Those who we do not naturally have a relationship with or an emotion for. neutral people we do not love or like because we know them.

 

[stuart lawrence]

A person can have good intentions.
But the doctrine itself is the cause of the problem that leads people to think the wrong thing if one does not explain themselves properly.
Also, when a person denies that they can stop sinning when the Bible says that they can do so, then they are setting a standard of righteousness with the bar set lower than what God's Word says. This would be wrong (of course).


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Your wrong doctrine I the cause of your problem.
Multiple times scripture clearly states the christian I not under a law of righteousness. You oppose scripture and refuse to accept it.
So either the bible is wrong, or you have errant doctrine concerning the core foundation of the new covenant.

And according to scripture, a person with your views does NOT see victory over sin in their life, though they still demand of others almost perfect obedience

 

[stuart lawrence]

A person can have good intentions.
But the doctrine itself is the cause of the problem that leads people to think the wrong thing if one does not explain themselves properly.
Also, when a person denies that they can stop sinning when the Bible says that they can do so, then they are setting a standard of righteousness with the bar set lower than what God's Word says. This would be wrong (of course).


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Oh Jason, it is you who sets the bar much lower than it I concerning the standard of righteousness under the law, and as you say.

This is wrong of course

 

[stuart lawrence]

A person can have good intentions.
But the doctrine itself is the cause of the problem that leads people to think the wrong thing if one does not explain themselves properly.
Also, when a person denies that they can stop sinning when the Bible says that they can do so, then they are setting a standard of righteousness with the bar set lower than what God's Word says. This would be wrong (of course).


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This will tell you what the standard I under the law to be righteous under it:

For whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
James 2:10

The standard to be TRULY righteous under the law is perfection.

Dont lower it!

 

[supescritter]

Jason,

Please stop taking my questions so flippantly. I am asking you earnestly, and you have not addressed them. I asked about 6 specific sin, and you haven't addressed those 6 specifically:

Revelation 21:8 (murder (anger), corrupt, idolators (see Col 3:5 for definition of idolatry), cowards, liars go to hell)
1 Cor 6:9-10 (thieves (covetousness), greedy, sexually immoral, slanderers (gossipers) go to hell)
Col 3:5 (gives the definition of "idolatry"; "idolatry" is in all lists that non-OSAS believers use to argue you can lose salvation: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness)
1 John 2: 16: (pride sends you to hell)

.. indicate that the following sins send you to hell: "greed", "covetousness", "lust", "anger", "pride" and "lying"

- Now you did mention that all liars go to hell, and you also mentioned that people who get angry commit murder and therefore go to hell - so why don't we start there. Everyone of us commit those sins regularly frequently - even without us knowing. How do you know that little tinge of annoyance because someone cut you off is not "anger"? You don't, so you'll need to repent and remember every little thing you do wrong every day.

So my questions to you are sincere:
1. Do you agree that the above sins will send you to hell (you agree that at least 2 of them send you to hell)
2. How does one live practically knowing that these 6 sins are committed frequently in a normal day? You say we must repent of our sins, so does that mean we have to keep praying for repentance throughout the day in case we die before we repent of a sin we don't know about?

That's all. I don't recall you answering either of those specific questions (you gave some verses, but it's not clear how they apply to those specific questions). I'm not trying to be argumentative - I honestly want to know the answer, because if OSAS is false then I need to know how to live. Thanks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your wrong doctrine I the cause of your problem.
Multiple times scripture clearly states the christian I not under a law of righteousness. You oppose scripture and refuse to accept it.
So either the bible is wrong, or you have errant doctrine concerning the core foundation of the new covenant.

And according to scripture, a person with your views does NOT see victory over sin in their life, though they still demand of others almost perfect obedience

Probably why that sort of person talks about sin over and over. Is that what you mean?

 

[stuart lawrence]

A person can have good intentions.
But the doctrine itself is the cause of the problem that leads people to think the wrong thing if one does not explain themselves properly.
Also, when a person denies that they can stop sinning when the Bible says that they can do so, then they are setting a standard of righteousness with the bar set lower than what God's Word says. This would be wrong (of course).


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I will give you a practical example of Paul being correct in gal6:2 and your view wrong.

When my mother, who i dearly loved was diagnosed terminally ill with cancer my late wife and I went to live with her for a few months in her home.
During this time it was impressed upon me i was living closer to the biblical ideal than i had ever lived. I put aside my own wants and desires for my mothers. My happiness was seeing her happy. Nothing gave me greater pleasure than taking her to see friends or bringing them to see her while this was still possible.
I honoured my mother, I didn't want to steal from her, murder her, bear false witness against her or covet what was hers.
Now if you are right, I acted that way because I looked to the letter of commandments and strove to obey them.
I can assure you, I never thought once of any biblical command let alone strove to obey it to treat my mother that way.
So why was I obeying the literal commands concerning my mother?
Because I loved her dearly.

Love is the fulfillment of the law rom13:10

 

[stuart lawrence]

Probably why that sort of person talks about sin over and over. Is that what you mean?

If scripture is true, you must die to a law of righteousness in order for sin not to be your master.
Jason refuses to die to a law of righteousness.
I could explain further, but, will leave it there

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I will give you a practical example of Paul being correct in gal6:2 and your view wrong.

When my mother, who i dearly loved was diagnosed terminally ill with cancer my late wife and I went to live with her for a few months in her home.
During this time it was impressed upon me i was living closer to the biblical ideal than i had ever lived. I put aside my own wants and desires for my mothers. My happiness was seeing her happy. Nothing gave me greater pleasure than taking her to see friends or bringing them to see her while this was still possible.
I honoured my mother, I didn't want to steal from her, murder her, bear false witness against her or covet what was hers.
Now if you are right, I acted that way because I looked to the letter of commandments and strove to obey them.
I can assure you, I never thought once of any biblical command let alone strove to obey it to treat my mother that way.
So why was I obeying the literal commands concerning my mother?
Because I loved her dearly.

Love is the fulfillment of the law rom13:10

Yes, I agree that by loving we can in certain cases do the right thing as Paul says in Romans 13:8-10. But what if you loved someone so much you would steal to help them or worse? What then?

Also, love is a commandment? Yes?

Repentance and a belief in Jesus are also Commands from God. We act on faith in God's Word so as to obey these Commands. The problem arises when we look to laws outside of the New Testament and when we strive to obey without believing Jesus is the Savior and or in loving Him. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.

Yes, we should worship and adore Jesus and talk to Him. But we cannot neglect the love of keeping His Commands, either.


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[stuart lawrence]

Yes, I agree that by loving we can in certain cases do the right thing as Paul says in Romans 13:8-10. But what if you loved someone so much you would steal to help them or worse? What then?

Also, love is a commandment? Yes?

Repentance and a belief in Jesus are also Commands from God. We act on faith in God's Word so as to obey these Commands. The problem arises when we look to laws outside of the New Testament and when we strive to obey without believing Jesus is the Savior and or in loving Him. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.

Yes, we should worship and adore Jesus and talk to Him. But we cannot neglect the love of keeping His Commands, either.


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So once again you condemn your self dont you, for you do not even try to obey all of Christs literal commands.
Paul tells us ALL commandments are fulfilled by loving your neighbour as yourself

He is of course not negating the most important which us to love God.
But once you are a christian, love fulfills ALL( ALL) the law

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, I agree that by loving we can in certain cases do the right thing as Paul says in Romans 13:8-10. But what if you loved someone so much you would steal to help them or worse? What then?

Also, love is a commandment? Yes?

Repentance and a belief in Jesus are also Commands from God. We act on faith in God's Word so as to obey these Commands. The problem arises when we look to laws outside of the New Testament and when we strive to obey without believing Jesus is the Savior and or in loving Him. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.

Yes, we should worship and adore Jesus and talk to Him. But we cannot neglect the love of keeping His Commands, either.


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BTW

You don't look to the literal letter of law to know which law to follow. The law is written on your mind and placed on your heart

 

[stuart lawrence]

How about 1 John 3:15?

According to this verse it is very plain in what it says.
It says if we hate our brother we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So it is saying that if we hate our brother we have no eternal life. This is pretty plain in what it says to me.


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As you quoted yesterday. Transgressing the TC under the OC was punishable by death. That is also clear isn't it?

Then why was king David not put to death when he broke three of them one after the other?

Allow room for Gods love, mercy and compassion, and him leading us away from our shortcomings