Once Saved Always Saved vs You Were Never Really Saved at All

longwait

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Can I get some of your guys opinions on this issue?
Does the Bible teach that once you are saved, you can always saved or can you actually fall out of your salvation
by rejecting it and living a non-Christian life? Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?
No, OSAS is not possible. Here are the scriptures to prove that.

Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:12-13
You need to stand FIRM in your faith till your last breath no matter how much you are persecuted for the sake of Jesus and how hard it gets. Its not going to be easy.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If ANYONE worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. Revelations 14:9-12
The Bible says if anyone takes the mark or worships the beast will be destroyed. Anyone could include believing saved christians as well but they did not have the patience to endure till the end.

Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?
You can be saved once but then fall away. Read the scriptures below.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8

But My righteous one will live by faith; and if he shrinks back, I will take no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls. Hebrews 10:38-39
 
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seeker2122

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Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Saved by Grace, not by works, but saved to do works. If we are not saved by what we have done then we cannot be unsaved by what we have done or what we have not done.

Thank you everyone. I agree we are not saved by works or anything we could have done so logical reasoning would say how can we do something or not do something to become unsaved? But didn't person sort of do something to be saved (not works) by "FAITH". If the person had to receive this free gift by "FAITH" then by rejecting / undoing that faith (or basically believing/not having faith anymore) wouldn't that logically undo the "being saved" part since that is how we became saved?

So this sort of touches upon the biggest topic in Christianity which is Predeterminism vs Free Will. Did God gives us the faith so that we would receive salvation through faith? Or is making the decision to place your faith in Jesus/Gospel a free will choice that we make completely on our own? Therefore, if we made that choice on our own to accept salvation, then if we choose again to reject by FAITH (so you say you no longer believe in Jesus/Gospel WITH FAITH in that rejection) then couldn't one argue you could be unsaved?

Thank you!
 
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zoidar

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As a fall away believer is also considered dead in the faith. But dead in the faith is not the same as losing ones Eternal Life. The prodigal son never lost his son-ship he was always a son.
Is that the most plausable understanding of the text?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Can I get some of your guys opinions on this issue?
Does the Bible teach that once you are saved, you can always saved or can you actually fall out of your salvation
by rejecting it and living a non-Christian life? Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?

As a Lutheran I believe the biggest problem with "once saved always saved" is that it denies the full assurance of our salvation in Christ, precisely because of the corollary you mention, "you were never truly saved to begin with".

If someone who believes in Jesus then falls away means that they were never actually saved because they didn't actually believe, then that means nobody can actually have any assurance that they are saved. They will constantly be trying to figure out if they have "real faith" or "fake faith", and it then we start to turn inward, away from the external word of God, away from the Gospel and the work of Jesus, and instead try to figure out if we are "actually saved" by our own internal feelings, thoughts, or our works.

Our assurance that we are saved does not come from the fact that "once saved always saved"; it comes from the fact that Christ died for us, and that God declares us righteous and forgiven on His account through the Gospel. Believe this, for it is most certainly true. It has nothing to do with you getting it figured out, it has nothing to do with you trying to figure out how "genuine" your faith is. Faith is extra nos, from outside of yourself, from God. Do you believe in Jesus? Do you trust Him? Then you have faith.

Can you, as Paul says, "make shipwreck" of your faith? Yes, that is a genuine warning in Scripture. But you can't do it accidentally, you can't stumble and fall out of Christ. When you sin, you don't stop being the forgiven and beloved adopted child of God. But we can, through sin, progressively walk away from Christ. When we stop having faith, when we stop trusting in Him, when we turn away and start losing ourselves. But God hasn't left us alone, our Lord says "I will not leave you as orphans". God has provided us with everything necessary, with everything we need: the Holy Spirit is alive and present with and in us, and He daily calls us to abide in Jesus, He daily calls us to abide in God's word. God calls us and speaks to us through the Scriptures, He calls us and speaks to us through His Sacraments. We are invited to come and hear, come and receive, come and believe. And Jesus is here, Jesus is always here with us. He is in and with His Church "unto the end of the age", and promises concerning His Church "not even the gates of hades can prevail against it". The Church rests on her Rock, her Foundation, her Solid Ground: Jesus Christ. He ministers and shepherds her by the means of His Word and Sacraments. He has given her the Holy Spirit, He calls her His and as His own she has His Father as her Father as well. And so the Faithful are to be reminded daily of the promises of God which are freely theirs in Christ our Savior.

Ours is the inheritance, ours is the victory through Him who with us abides. And so He, as True Vine, and we as the branches, abide in Him. And in this Refuge no one can pluck us away from His hand. In His safekeeping there is no power in heaven or on earth or under the earth, there is neither height nor depth, there is nothing which can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We rest secure in Him, abiding in Him, and here there is no power of hell nor fear of death, no assault of guilt, no power or dominion, no tribulation nor principality that can rob us of the riches of God's grace and the assurances of His mercy that are ours in Jesus, for His word is everlasting and true, He is faithful even when we are faithless, He stands with us until the end, He is our all, our everything, and if He is for us who can be against us?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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d taylor

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YahuahSaves

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Thank you everyone. I agree we are not saved by works or anything we could have done so logical reasoning would say how can we do something or not do something to become unsaved? But didn't person sort of do something to be saved (not works) by "FAITH". If the person had to receive this free gift by "FAITH" then by rejecting / undoing that faith (or basically believing/not having faith anymore) wouldn't that logically undo the "being saved" part since that is how we became saved?

So this sort of touches upon the biggest topic in Christianity which is Predeterminism vs Free Will. Did God gives us the faith so that we would receive salvation through faith? Or is making the decision to place your faith in Jesus/Gospel a free will choice that we make completely on our own? Therefore, if we made that choice on our own to accept salvation, then if we choose again to reject by FAITH (so you say you no longer believe in Jesus/Gospel WITH FAITH in that rejection) then couldn't one argue you could be unsaved?

Thank you!
The way I see it, it's not only faith that gets you saved. It is belief. When we come to Jesus and repent and believe he is the Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins - we are saved. But salvation itself is an ongoing process, for it is our faith ( trust) in Him that secures our salvation. If we take up our cross daily through faith (trust) and follow him. We are saved.

If someone repented, believed and even followed (after being born again of the spirit), and they choose to (at any point), turn away, reject and deny Jesus: then a person can "lose" their salvation.

When it comes to "free will", (I believe) the only real choice we have is death or life (spiritually speaking).


Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die” (John 11:25). We choose life when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and dedicate ourselves to following Him. He becomes our life (Colossians 3:4). The Lord gives His followers “a rich and satisfying life” (John 10:10, NLT). Our obedience to God brings life now in all its fullness, as well as life eternal (John 17:3; Psalm 16:11). But disobedience results in the greatest curse of all—death and destruction now and forever (Matthew 7:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:8–9; Hebrews 2:2–3).
 
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didactics

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Thank you everyone. I agree we are not saved by works or anything we could have done so logical reasoning would say how can we do something or not do something to become unsaved? But didn't person sort of do something to be saved (not works) by "FAITH". If the person had to receive this free gift by "FAITH" then by rejecting / undoing that faith (or basically believing/not having faith anymore) wouldn't that logically undo the "being saved" part since that is how we became saved?

So this sort of touches upon the biggest topic in Christianity which is Predeterminism vs Free Will. Did God gives us the faith so that we would receive salvation through faith? Or is making the decision to place your faith in Jesus/Gospel a free will choice that we make completely on our own? Therefore, if we made that choice on our own to accept salvation, then if we choose again to reject by FAITH (so you say you no longer believe in Jesus/Gospel WITH FAITH in that rejection) then couldn't one argue you could be unsaved?

Thank you!
I don't know if you are aware, but there is a technical term for this debate that started about 400 years ago- Arminianism vs Calvinism (there is a third less popular one called, Molinism). This subject is about predestination. Sometimes people don't always land on one side or the other as some might say they are four-point Arminian or a three-point Calvinist, for example.

Five Points of Arminianism​


The five points of Arminianism (from Jacobus Arminius 1559-1609) are in contrast to the five points of Calvinism. The Arminian five points are
  • Human Free Will – This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
  • Conditional Election – God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
  • Universal Atonement – The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
  • Resistible Grace – The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
  • Fall from Grace – The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.

The TULIP of Calvinism is the acronym that represents the five primary points that represent Calvinism: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. The five points emerged from the Synod of Dort (1618– 19).
 
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YahuahSaves

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Five Points of Arminianism​


I agree with all except conditional election.. Gods grace is so great, how can we know for sure he only goes after a select group? I believe his desire is to save all. So, (until the end at least) he will continue convicting the hearts of men until this whole thing draws to a conclusion.
 
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Pielun123

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Can I get some of your guys opinions on this issue?
Does the Bible teach that once you are saved, you can always saved or can you actually fall out of your salvation
by rejecting it and living a non-Christian life? Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?
To answer your using Scripture, please read John 15 about the True Vine. Note that all the branches are 'in' Christ and so they therefore can't be atheist's/Buddhists/agnostics etc. The parable is specifically referring to Christians. Notice how you have to "abide in Christ" and how it is ONLY Him doing the work in a born-again believer's life (John 15:4). What happens to the fruitless branches who refuse to bear fruit (let Jesus work in them) and quench, grieve and resist Him? They are withered up and burned in fire. This is clearly talking about hell. The lesson is this: abide in Christ and He in you. Paul calls it a race of endurance. Many are called but few there be that make it. The road is difficult, narrow and there is few that be that make it. This parable is telling us to not wander, drift and backslide. You can reject Jesus and deny Him. Please don't - rather chose to abide in the vine. Let the Vinedresser work on you and you run hard.

There are many many more parables which describe this reality and some of the YT channel's below go into them in much more depth.
If you want to do your own research, YouTube channels that explain why OSAS is a false doctrine and not supported by the Bible in more detail, include:
- Living Waters by Ray Comfort
- The Beat by Allan Parr
- Wretched by Todd Friel
- Heart Cry/ I'll be Honest by Paul Washer
- thefigtreeminsitry (my personal favorite)

Note that many of these people are labeled as "lordship Salvationists" and heretics on some of these online platforms. Likewise, they will label those on the opposing side of the debate as "Antinomians" and heretics using God's grace (defined in the Bible as the enabling power of the Holy Spirit) to indulge in the things He hates. Its a big battle out there and its been going on for the last 400 years since the reformation. But there can only be one truth. Conditional Vs Unconditional security is big debate as it involves the very core of Christianity. OSAS is also the world's #1 doctrine and the reason why I believe so many are lukewarm and why the Church is indistinguishable for the world in terms of abortion rates, drug use, inappropriate contentography etc. According to the mindset of some deceived, now that they are saved they can never lose it, why bother striving against sin and fighting the good fight? They might as well live their best life now and enjoy the sins that God hates and get to heaven with their pants on fire. No. According to the Bible such people have a front row seat to hell. See Hebrews 10:29 where it talks about such people who trample on the Son of God and count His blood as a worthless thing.

As another heads up, some deep into this movement become hyper-dispentionalists and will argue that verses such as Hebrews 10:29 don't apply to us today as they were written only for the early church and for the church during the end-times. Very convenient of them, isn't it? If you want my advice, stay away from man-made templates like dispensationalism and read the Bible the way it was intended by God. The minute you start adding systems of interpretation you end up lost (extreme examples include Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, SDA's).

OSAS is a doctrine that has a little bit of truth (yes it is true that God will keep you unto the end if you abide in Him see the book of Jude) but it has been twisted and misapplied and grossly misused. I was once actually on a OSAS discord channel and the members (supposed Christians) were literally calling for the suicide of one of the mediators. It was disgusting and pure evil and I think this says everything. OSAS followers are quick to agree that "grace isn't a license to sin" but they see no harm in staying in that sin and being just plain evil.

They claim to be under grace but HATE and deny what its teachers. "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12). How can you be under God's grace and hate what it teaches? Willful, continual and habitual unrepantant sin doesn't make sense if your a follower of Christ and under His grace.

In Conclusion:
To come to the truth of it please read ALL of your bible. Especially all of the New Testament. Let the Word of God speak and the Sword of His Word cut deep. As Christians we have a personal responsibility to abide in Jesus, repent when we mess up (1 John 1:9), confess and turn away from those things which the Lord considers as abominations. We are not trying to earn anything by our good works because these good works don't even belong to us! They belong to Jesus (John 15:4)! We are simply obeying and following Christ's direct word and New Testament commands. We follow Christ to the end.

Other verses to consider:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10). ** you will see this verse often misquoted by the OSAS community with the bit in bold often (rather conveniently) left out.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2 Peter 2:21-22).


This is a particularly nasty battle ground and I do believe that there is real evil at play. May you find the truth and abide in it.
All the best.
 
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Sheila Davis

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Can I get some of your guys opinions on this issue?
Does the Bible teach that once you are saved, you can always saved or can you actually fall out of your salvation
by rejecting it and living a non-Christian life? Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?
Paul speaks of those who are predestined in salvation _ also with the word adopt, even before the foundations of the world. ---- 25 verses
Jesus said that he was not going to lose any that our father has given him. He also said his sheep knows his voice.
Those scriptures indicate that some people are saved, and always has been and will not be lost.

Almost all other scripture tells us not everybody is saved but they can be if they choose to be. Tells us that if had salvation can be lost, especially in Ezekiel chapter 18:24-26 and 2nd Peter 2:20-22........ Those are the ones people will argue were never truly saved in the first place.

Even though Jesus came to teach and preach to the Israelites, he sent Paul out to preach to and teach especially to the gentiles - that the gift of salvation is theirs too if they accept it, it's their choice.
Reading scripture, according to Paul's writings there are two different groups of people - some who are predestined (always saved) and some who will choose their own destination. Jesus said the gospel must be preached to all Nations - then the end will come - that means everybody will have a chance to accept or reject his gift of salvation
 
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YahuahSaves

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"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10).
I'm a fairly new Christian and God showed me not too long ago that his work will be done 'within me and through me'. (This was when I returned to church with the same religious ideas I was bought up with). and I was trying to 'please God' by doing the "right thing" in my own mind and strength. This scripture needs to be a reminder to us all. It's Gods plan, not ours.
 
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I can see why some would be wary of OSAS because it's sometimes tied to hyper-grace: a new wave of teaching that emphasizes the grace of God to the exclusion of other vital teachings such as repentance and confession of sin. Even if some adamantly oppose hyper-grace, they don't hold to lordship salvation which teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. The non-lordship view is that one needs only to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. The lordship view emphasizes that one is to embrace the gospel by repenting of one's sins and trusting in Christ. Non-lordship says that repentance is only about changing one's mind. Lordship says repentance of sins is what needs to be in mind. Notice, whether you hold to hyper-grace, non-lordship or lordship view, each may believe OSAS is correct. I think hyper-grace and non-lordship always teach OSAS. When it comes to Arminianism vs Calvinism (or even catholics) they all hold to lordship salvation, but they have different ways of interpreting how lordship salvation works.
 
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I’m kind of learning this just now. The Molinist view is related to soteriology but not in a primary way. It is possible to hold to Molinism and be either an Arminian or Calvinist, to some degree. It’s about something called middle knowledge. Pelagianism on the other hand is primarily about soteriology and was ardently opposed by Augustine and regarded as heresy by the Christian church. Semi-Pelagianism takes a middle position between Augustine’s view and Pelagianism. Along with semi-Pelagianism is the doctrine of prevenient grace which says that God gives grace to a person, enabling the person to freely make a choice of God. Arminianism, a theology that emerged during the Protestant reformation, tends toward Semi-Pelagianism, although Arminius himself held to the doctrine of total depravity and the need of God’s grace to initiate the human will to turn to God.
Something once pointed out about what’s wrong with molinism. Well, for starters it sounds like mole. Second, because of “middle knowledge” we don’t have free will and neither does God. In this view, God’s will is determined by our will. The only decision I can make is the decision God knew that I would make in the circumstances that He made me in.
 
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Theologyofone

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“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” Ephesians 2:8-9

This scripture explains to us that there is nothing we can do to be saved. If we think we can be good by trying to obey God’s commandments (not of yourselves) this scripture tells us no “Not of works”. If it was by works then one could boast, one could say he was a better person and my merit was good enough. This kind of thinking make the sacrifice of Christ meaningless. Some have said that it is a co-operation of Christ sacrifice and good works. This scripture does not say Grace + good works = salvation. It states it is a GIFT of God. It states that God gave you salvation by his Grace through faith. It is a God Only work. But your question is can you lose your salvation? Here is Jesus’ words on this. John 10:26-29

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

He states His sheep hear His voice

He gives them eternal life

That His Father gave them to Him (a gift)

And no man will take them out of my Father's hand. (Lose their salvation)

Once you are Jesus, you can never lose Him, it is a God only work.

The second part of your question “rejecting it and living a non-Christian life”. At the moment of salvation, we now have access to God because of Christ. We no longer need to live in darkness but have a relationship with a Holy God. We will struggle with sin until we are called home to Him.

In short, we should try to grow in His image and as John states … 1 John 1:9 ‘If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” If not, we will walk this life wandering in need of direction and come to place where on question their salvation.
 
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Theologyofone

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Thank you everyone. I agree we are not saved by works or anything we could have done so logical reasoning would say how can we do something or not do something to become unsaved? But didn't person sort of do something to be saved (not works) by "FAITH". If the person had to receive this free gift by "FAITH" then by rejecting / undoing that faith (or basically believing/not having faith anymore) wouldn't that logically undo the "being saved" part since that is how we became saved?

So this sort of touches upon the biggest topic in Christianity which is Predeterminism vs Free Will. Did God gives us the faith so that we would receive salvation through faith? Or is making the decision to place your faith in Jesus/Gospel a free will choice that we make completely on our own? Therefore, if we made that choice on our own to accept salvation, then if we choose again to reject by FAITH (so you say you no longer believe in Jesus/Gospel WITH FAITH in that rejection) then couldn't one argue you could be unsaved?

Thank you!
Many believe it is by our faith we are saved but in reality, it is by Jesus’ faith we are saved.
Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ…and
Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me

A dead man cannot hear, “Salvation come from God, it is a God only work, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” Romans 10:17 God opens the heart by grace to receive Him

John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

God gives us the faith
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

God draws us to Him,
John 6: 44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Salvation is:
Jesus reaches out to you and in that moment, He shatters your defenses and, in that moment, you will understand that you are completely known by God, completely loved.
 
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Perseverance of the Saints
1. What God begins, he finishes
Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.
Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Isa 46:4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
2. Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost
Joh 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Rom 8:28-31 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
3. God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith
1Co 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Rev 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
4. However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
1Co 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Phi 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
1Th 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Heb 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
Jud 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 
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Douglas Brian McIntire

Take Captive Every Thought to Obey Christ
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Jesus, "being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him." Those who don't "obey Jesus" don't know a thing.

31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:31-36

This obedience to Jesus is not by following the Law of Mosses...

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17

Who do you want to believe? Do you want to believe those who came thousands of years later or believe those who wrote the New Testament?

In order for anyone to truly get the truth from the Bible or the truth about Jesus and salvation, you first need to believe that the Apostles, though imperfect, didn't lie even to the point it led to their death (Even John's death isolated and imprisoned on an island), just like Jesus believed God to the death (And not by his own hands). You have to believe that the writers of the New Testament only spoke the truth, and Paul put's this fact this way ...

16 When one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 3:16-18 & 2 Corinthians 4: 1-6 as one complete thought in context)


"For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake."

The writers of the New Testament believed Jesus to be God with all rule and authority and Paul said it this way when writing to Timothy

Teach and urge these things. 3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. (1 Timothy 6:3-4)

Jesus has the final and completer say to all truth and the apostles all believe this fact. The writer of the Book of Acts wrote Peter saying...

11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11-12)

And this is how Paul explain this fact to the Colossians...

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ (Colossians 2: 8-11)

John wrote...

6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:6)

John also wrote (Easy to Read Translation) ...

9 Everyone must continue to follow only the teaching about Christ. Whoever changes that teaching does not have God. But whoever continues to follow the teaching about Christ has both the Father and his Son. 10 Don’t accept those who come to you but do not bring this teaching. Don’t invite them into your house. Don’t welcome them in any way. 11 If you do, you are helping them with their evil work. (2 John 1:9-11)

What this means is that truth starts and ends within the Words of Jesus Christ whereas all the writers of the New Testament believed this fact not even teaching beyond this fact. Paul Himself writing about this fact...

1 I, Paul, am begging you with the gentleness and the kindness of Christ. Some say that I am bold when I am writing you from a distance, but not when I am there with you. 2 They think our motives for what we do are like those of the world. I plan to be very bold against those people when I come. I hope I will not need to use that same boldness with you. 3 We live in this world, but we don’t fight our battles in the same way the world does. 4 The weapons we use are not human ones. Our weapons have power from God and can destroy the enemy’s strong places. We destroy people’s arguments, 5 and we tear down every proud idea that raises itself against the knowledge of God. We also capture every thought and make it give up and obey Christ. 6 We are ready to punish anyone there who does not obey, but first we want you to be fully obedient. 2 Corinthians 10:1-6

Until this obedience is met, everyone who doesn't meet at least the belief of this fact, do not know where they are going. With that said ...

What People Do Shows What They Are

15 “Be careful of false prophets. They come to you and look gentle like sheep. But they are really dangerous like wolves. 16 You will know these people because of what they do. Good things don’t come from people who are bad, just as grapes don’t come from thornbushes, and figs don’t come from thorny weeds. 17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, and bad trees produce bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 You will know these false people by what they do.

21 “Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ 23 Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’


Two Kinds of People

24 “Whoever hears these teachings of mine and obeys them is like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 It rained hard, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house. But it did not fall because it was built on rock.

26 “Whoever hears these teachings of mine and does not obey them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 It rained hard, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house. And it fell with a loud crash.” Matthew 7:15-27



Did you notice that the two kinds of people? One is who follows Jesus by doing what He says, and the other is that false prophet who solely believes in doing what they think they should do instead of obey Jesus!

I personally would love to answer all your questions, but I would rather you were saved through Jesus' words and teachings which includes the words of the Apostles. I have heard every type of argument pertaining to Salvation and ALL OF THESE AREGUMENTS GO BEYOND THE WORDS OF JESUS'. When you follow Jesus, you will learn EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW about salvation and how it works. Within the above verses (Matthew 7: 24) you should be able to see your questioned answered.

The New Testament should be taken grammatically and doctrinally and those who don't believe this fact it is because "the god of this world has blinded them," and this is the doctrinal truth and the grace of God...


the Good News​

34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:34-43)

18 God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.” Act 3:18-26

30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” Acts 5:30-32

7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 5:7-10)
 
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Think...

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Once Saved Always Saved vs You Were Never Really Saved at All
Can I get some of your guys opinions on this issue?
Does the Bible teach that once you are saved, you can always saved or can you actually fall out of your salvation by rejecting it and living a non-Christian life? Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?
Yes, there is a third case.

The Biblically accurate case. That of Once Saved, No Longer Saved.

Any Christian can lose their Salvation, and there are many who study this concept in-depth who would even claim that none of us are even actually saved until the very end, .... or not.

How 'bout Matthew 7:21-23? These are clearly believers, Christians, who are being rejected by Christ for living in habitual sin.

Paul even commented about the uncertainty of his Salvation.

There are countless passages in Scripture that bolster the case for losing one's Salvation.

John 15:1-6 is one of the most undeniable, but detractors - the OSAS agenda, will vehemently deny any proof that is presented.

Does the Bible speak anywhere of blotting one's name out of the Book of Life? Yes, it does. Yet another undeniable proof of losing one's Salvation.

The Bible speaks of the Wide road and the Narrow road. If this is not evidence of the majority of professed believing Christians being rejected, I don't know what is. AND, if OSAS is a Biblically sound doctrine, there would only be a Wide road by which the vast majority would be saved. Right?
 
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Think...

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What God begins, he finishes
All God's promises, and projects, are conditional.

God will not finish a person/project that turns away from Him in the process.

Those who are IN Christ are those who believe and live by His Ways. They are IN the True Vine, they are walking the trail He has blazed. BUT, if they willfully, and consciously, turn from Him, they will be lost and He will give them up.

If this were not true, there would be nothing at all to fear from the devil who we are warned is lurking constantly to knock us off our path.

What of Hosea 4:6? God's people are LOST, "DESTROYED" for lack of knowledge. For not developing a love for His Truth (Jesus). 2 Thessalonians 2:10

If we as Christians no longer have anything at all to fear in this fallen world, then that means we are no longer IN this fallen world. That is not the case.

Remain in Christ, continue to walk upright in faith and righteousness, continue to obey the Commandments, ... you will have nothing to worry about.

Live your own way, ... you will be lost.
 
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