Once Saved Always Saved vs You Were Never Really Saved at All

[Roymond]

@Think...
In regards to the young rich ruler (see Mk 10:17-22), it is more likely that he supposed Jesus only to be a good teacher. Though, he gave him the kind of respect and honor one would have for a king, and so he assisted his faith. Christ would have him mean that he looked upon him to be God when he called him "good master" and seized on those words and used it to test the man's faith. He then tested him on his understanding of goodness. The young man supposed himself to be a good man, not realizing no one has kept the Ten Commandments perfectly but Jesus. Some have suggested that he actually gained his wealth by extortion and is the reason he went away sad. One of the things mentioned is “do not defraud”, which is an unusual thing to say in the middle of giving some of the Ten Commandments. He gave him five horizontal commandments, commandments to do with his fellow man. Instead of the tenth commandment, Thou shalt not covet, our Savior here puts, Defraud not.* By what follows, he showed this man that his god was his money.

*Since the wording is unique to Mark's account, it could just be a paraphrase against coveting.

There's a nagging thought in the back of my mind saying there's something significant about the wording in terms of first century rabbinic dialogue/debate, but I can't ferret out anything more than that there's a connection here we should be aware of. Maybe it will come to me later.....

 

[Roymond]

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Yes or no?

Where are you getting this question? He was explaining an aspect of a passage, and you jump to this?
???

 

[Roymond]

Can I get some of your guys opinions on this issue?
Does the Bible teach that once you are saved, you can always saved or can you actually fall out of your salvation
by rejecting it and living a non-Christian life? Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?

Thanks to another comment, something about this struck me: the question exposes a focus on self rather than a focus on the Savior. That in itself is a step in the wrong direction, regardless of how far you think it could go.

 

[returntosender]

If it's not once saved always saved wouldn't Jesus have to keep dying on the cross? That's a lot to ask of him.

 

[nhisname]

I couldn't agree more and I too wish that were the case.

I also wish all Christians everywhere could agree on the same doctrines, but unfortunately, we have divisions and wolves that divide us, ... just as the Bible told us we would.

I agree with the doctrine once saved always saved, I have for 46 years.
Salvation is a gift we did not earn only through God's grace may we receive it.
God does not take back his gifts.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and call from God are irrevocable.

 

[didactics]

How does that make any sense at all?

I asked you a simple, direct question ... TWICE.

The first time, you beat around the bush and gave me the run around.

The second time, you declare that I must answer your question first?

Who are you?

Your sincerity and credibility are greatly in question and I don't have any need to converse with children who are here to play silly games.

Have fun.

My mistake, I interpreted your question as rhetorical, but that's not correct. The first time you asked me if Jesus is God, it was stated in the negative--you don't believe Jesus is God? This question is better off being answered with clarification so there is no confusion. Grammatically the yes/no response is flipped to no/yes to answer correctly. I don't believe Jesus is God? No.

 

[nhisname]

I totally agree, but the Bible does seem to indicate that we can be rejected even with our gifts.

Look at Matthew 7:21-23.

Those who are IN Christ are those who have been given the Faith to believe in Him and to walk in His ways. Unfortunately, there does appear to be cases where these believers, who have been gifted with faith, and the conditional promise of Salvation IF they stay the course, are rejected.

Look at John 15:1-6.

Yes, gifts remain. And yes, the call remains, even if we walk away and even if we put it off, BUT if we die in a state of disgrace, in a state of disbelief, we are doomed.

Jesus says so Himself.

"If you do not believe that I AM (God), you will die in your sins."
John 8:24

He is effectively saying that His sacrifice, His Spirit, cannot cover us in certain instances based on OUR doing, or lack thereof.

How else would these verses make any sense?

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..."
Hosea 4:6

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received (developed) not the love of the Truth (Jesus), that they might be saved."
2 Thessalonians 2:10

You see, God considers it an unrighteous thing to be deceived. If one is deceived to believe in a False Gospel, they are in misalignment with God. But those who stay true to their faith, continue to study God's Word, continue to obey the Commandments - keeping the Covenant, will not be capable of being deceived.

There is a quote:

"It is impossible to enslave, mentally or socially, a Bible-reading people."
-Horace Greeley

Just before Matt 7:21-23 in Matt 7-15 Jesus speaks of true and false prophets and how to judge them by their fruits. This is who he is speaking of in Matt 7-21-23 you need to put scripture in context.

John 15:1-6
back in Matt 7:15 Jesus was speaking of those false prophets and us judging them by their fruit.
Same here, a true believer who is in Christ will bear fruit good fruit, the none bearing vine who is false will be cut off.
This also why we need to keep our discernment skills shared! We have false preachers everywhere taking in ppl unaware of what God's word really says. Hosea 4-6 This why we are dying from lack of knowledge.

John 8-24
A non believer will die in their sins. There is no cover for sin to non believer

A true believer of God receives the gift of salvation it's free but not cheap. We count the cost of following Christ its our choice. The Christian life is very difficult and it's a shock to some but a true believer stays in the race.

2 Thess 2-10
The anti christ will persuade those non believers with his lies and love of sin, they all will parish.
Isa 5:20 woe to those that call good evil and evil good.
We are living in these times right now so it will be real easy for the antichrist to take over.

 

[Benam]

For those who believe in OSAS, I'm curious what your thoughts are with regard to people who accepted Jesus as children, never doubted, believed wholeheartedly, but as they grew older they began to doubt and eventually stopped believing.

I don't think one can claim that they were not saved in the first place. I know many people who were devout as children but as adults they claim to be athiests or pagans and reject Jesus completely.

Personally, much like universalism, I would love to believe in OSAS because either one would mean certain people I love would ultimately be saved despite the lifestyles and beliefs they follow now. But I haven't seen a convincing argument from scripture for either, yet.

 

[Sabri]

No, you have to live a life that’s worthy of heaven. The scriptures says fornicators adulterers liars etc will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Additionally, 6 things God hates. Seven is an abomination.

 

[nhisname]

The full weight of your post seems to indicate that you agree that Christians, those IN Christ, can be lost.

Is that what you intended to convey?

Do you believe that Christians, those who believe - and are IN - Christ, can be False Prophets?

Do you believe that those who believe in Christ, and who by faith use the power of His Name to cast out demons, can lose their Salvation?

Just clarifying is all.

 

[nhisname]

The Christian who repents and truly believes is saved. There are however wolves in sheep clothing that prey on weak Christians. We have false Christians in our churches today that cause strife among God's ppl, I've seen it happen. You have to know how to discern and the way to do that is read and study God's Word and don't forget God's armor. Never, never underestimate Satan.

 

[Roymond]

Where does any question come from, what difference does it make and how is it any of your business?

Most questions have some relationship to what prompted them.

How is it any of my business?

You do know that this isn't private chat, right?

It's a simple, direct, innocent, harmless question.

The question you should be asking is why can't he answer it with a simple yes or no.

A question is asked to clarify somebody's stance so that further discussion can ensue with a better understanding of where both parties lie in their beliefs.

Since when is a simple question HEADLINE NEWS?

The question bore no relation to what had been said. In fact it's more than a bit offensive and ought to qualify as "goading".

 

[Roymond]

For those who believe in OSAS, I'm curious what your thoughts are with regard to people who accepted Jesus as children, never doubted, believed wholeheartedly, but as they grew older they began to doubt and eventually stopped believing.

I don't think one can claim that they were not saved in the first place. I know many people who were devout as children but as adults they claim to be athiests or pagans and reject Jesus completely.

Personally, much like universalism, I would love to believe in OSAS because either one would mean certain people I love would ultimately be saved despite the lifestyles and beliefs they follow now. But I haven't seen a convincing argument from scripture for either, yet.

This made me think of one of the founders of the Newsboys who is now an atheist. That puzzles me given how edifying a fair amount of their songs were. It also made me wonder what's become of the rest of them, since none of the original members are even in the group any more!

 

[Diamond7]

Does the Bible teach that once you are saved, you can always saved or can you actually fall out of your salvation
by rejecting it and living a non-Christian life? Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?

Psalm 139 16 tells us that God writes the book of our life at or before our conception. We are given gifts, talents, and abilities and we decide if we want to use what God gives us to bring Him praise, honor and glory. So God does not reject us and He does not scare us. He encourages us to be all HE created us to be. The Angels watch over us to see if we follow His plan for us or not. People are judged by what is written in the books. Revelation 20 12

 

[didactics]

Where does any question come from, what difference does it make and how is it any of your business?

It's a simple, direct, innocent, harmless question.

The question you should be asking is why can't he answer it with a simple yes or no.

A question is asked to clarify somebody's stance so that further discussion can ensue with a better understanding of where both parties lie in their beliefs.

Since when is a simple question HEADLINE NEWS?

You see, I interpreted your question as rhetorical the first time because of the way it was worded. If you were to replace the question with a period it would read—you don’t believe Jesus is God.—as in, it sounded like you had a reason to think otherwise by something I posted. I don’t know grammar all that well, so I don’t know for sure if the question is rhetorical or if it worded as a sincere question. Would it have the same effect if you worded the question like this—do you not believe Jesus is God?

 

[didactics]

The first time you presented the question to me, you boldfaced a couple sentences in my earlier post. Here is the following.

Christ would have him mean that he looked upon him to be God when he called him "good master" and seized on those words and used it to test the man's faith. He then tested him on his understanding of goodness.

What I was attempting to do here is explain the meaning of Mark 10:18 by paraphrasing from a commentary from Matthew Henry. I replied to you in the first place because of something you directed to Roymond in the following.

EDIT: To be clear, the following was a paraphrase from Matthew Henry, "Christ would have him mean that he looked upon him to be God when he called him "good master"" However, the following here is a paraphrase from the Believer's Bible Commentary, "and seized on those words and used it to test the man's faith. He then tested him on his understanding of goodness." But, it actually reads, "Jesus seized on the words "Good Teacher". He did not refuse the title but used it to test the man's faith." Maybe that's what the confusion is about.

Scripture also says that Jesus is not Good, while Jesus Himself says He is the Good Shepherd elsewhere.

From what I understand when Jesus said to the rich young ruler, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." it might sound like he is saying that he is not good, but he never states it directly.

I didn't say Jesus is not good, I said the Bible says that in Mark 10:18, but I was just making a point. You're the only one who ignored the fact that I immediately followed with 'Jesus is the Good Shepherd.'

It is my understanding that he responded this way to the man because he didn't know to whom he was asking the question.

 

[lismore]

Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?

Certainly people who are not saved will not endure when trouble or persecution comes. God Bless

 

[seeker2122]

Certainly people who are not saved will not endure when trouble or persecution comes. God Bless

Then that means since I cannot endure and always fall out when I encounter troubles, difficulties and discouragement, I was never saved when I thought I was. That means I've been living my entire life as a lie. I'm still not saved.

 

[lismore]

Then that means since I cannot endure and always fall out when I encounter troubles, difficulties and discouragement, I was never saved when I thought I was. That means I've been living my entire life as a lie. I'm still not saved.

Hello seeker. Definitely not. As you're here discussing these matters. The category I am talking about would have no interest in even discussing this (they would have no idea about or interest in what we're talking about) God Bless

 

[Toro]

I agree with OSAS, the problem with OSAS is the same problem with how one defines "love".

"Salvation" is defined differently from person to person..not by looking at scripture.. I do NOT believe that all definitions of "being saved" are correct. So if the one speaking on OSAS has a flawed definition/understanding of salvation... then their foundation may itself be flawed.

IF one truly belongs to Christ, I do not believe they can be lost.... ALTHOUGH they will always be free to walk away... but they will not because they are His.

I do believe however that one does not lose salvation by accident, people may backslide, fall down a whole lot.... may take what feels like a million steps backward.......but the important thing is that one WANTS to do the will of the Father and take up their cross.

A willingness to put down the flesh and to overcome even if the current circumstance is failure. Because we are all human, we are all weak and apart from Him can do nothing.... He is merciful and He never forgets that we are dust.

We do not do great and powerful things by our own strength, but by His if we fall short because we are dust He will lift us up. IF we use His name as an excuse to sin endlessly then we may seriously need to consider the state of our conscience.

But if you define OSAS correctly, I agree.