Once Saved Always Saved vs You Were Never Really Saved at All

[seeker2122]

Hello seeker. Definitely not. As you're here discussing these matters. The category I am talking about would have no interest in even discussing this (they would have no idea about or interest in what we're talking about) God Bless

I found that all my life as a Christian, I cannot endure when trouble and persecution comes. Whenever even the smallest things go wrong for me, I lose faith and even get angry at God and complain. If my faith is that weak and gets shook that easily, I really have no idea what I am. One moment, I'm so convicted and on fire for the LORD, and the next, I go back on everything I stood for and believed.... I only know how to praise God and be a believer when good things happen in my life. But when bad things happen in my life or the lack of good things happening in my life, I find no ability in me to praise God, give thanks, and have faith. I just completely disbelieve and have no energy or capacity in me to see it any other way (even though I've read countless time in the Bible how God uses people's sufferings, and hardships as a way to display his power, glory, and to build our faith). I have no backbone...or I am spineless. I am seeking someone, a companion to be my backbone or to help me build a backbone but I feel like God won't bless me with someone like that because I don't deserve it and he just wants me to build my own backbone for myself with Him but I've failed to do that so far my entire life. Meanwhile, I've seen and heard of other people who had little to no faith too but were blessed with a partner in life who was a strong believer and that person was their backbone and helped lead them to Christ Why can't I have that encouragement? I don't get any encouragement at all. It's as if God is telling me, "I will not give you what you want because you are not worthy. You will have to do it alone OR fail trying. There will be no other course for me."

I remember Paul said somewhere, "if you cannot control yourself then it is better for you to marry. Better to be in marriage than to burn with passion." Yes. That is me. I will and just burn in passion and that is going to be the death of me unless God can help me.

 

[didactics]

Then that means since I cannot endure and always fall out when I encounter troubles, difficulties and discouragement, I was never saved when I thought I was. That means I've been living my entire life as a lie. I'm still not saved.

Whether you think it’s possible to lose your salvation or salvation cannot be lost, either way you are concerned whether or not you are bearing fruit. Either you think you lost your salvation or it never happened because you believe you are not bearing fruit, in other words. Maybe what you recognize is that it’s not possible to be a slave to sin and be a Christian at the same time and you are convinced your choices prove you are in bondage still. Maybe it weighs on your conscience that you cannot call Jesus lord and at the same time act like it’s not true. One thing I’ve heard a pastor say is that we cannot have perfect assurance all of the time but we shouldn’t have such a crippling doubt about our salvation either; God wants us to have it settled in our hearts and to know we are saved. There is such a thing as false conversion and true conversion, to my understanding. God wants us to know it is possible to think through these things and know what is right, because assurance of salvation is a promise in his word and we would do well to put our trust in him. When we cannot be sure of what Christ has done for us it is like calling God a lier. Some might tell you assurance is not that important and you just need to focus on doing what is right. To the extent that a Christian does good works because the Spirit first works in him, this is true, but not if you have no assurance whatsoever. But, if your assurance is not meant to be, you are persisting in doing good to be seen as good or to merit some kind of goodness. Change is possible, but only by the grace of God. And, you can endure in the pursuit of godliness (see 1 Timothy 4:7). As Jay Adams put it, “There is no easier path to godliness than the prayerful study and obedient practice of the Word of God.

Lastly, I noticed your other post about marriage. It is true, marriage is the norm and that is why it is important to be prepared for manhood or even for the few that are meant to stay celibate, so they remain virtuous. I have felt like a hypocrite myself, as I’m not married yet and I don’t believe I have the gift of celibacy, so it can only mean…wait a minute, I need to backtrack a little here as my thought earlier was that self-examination is needed, but not only for the reason of determining what kind of faith you have. Examination is required first for discipline, then so you can die to your old sinful ways (daily saying “no”), and lastly to practice in following Jesus Christ by the guidance that the Holy Spirit provides through His Word.

 

[lismore]

I found that all my life as a Christian, I cannot endure when trouble and persecution comes. Whenever even the smallest things go wrong for me, I lose faith and even get angry at God and complain. If my faith is that weak and gets shook that easily, I really have no idea what I am. One moment, I'm so convicted and on fire for the LORD, and the next, I go back on everything I stood for and believed.... I only know how to praise God and be a believer when good things happen in my life. But when bad things happen in my life or the lack of good things happening in my life, I find no ability in me to praise God, give thanks, and have faith. I just completely disbelieve and have no energy or capacity in me to see it any other way (even though I've read countless time in the Bible how God uses people's sufferings, and hardships as a way to display his power, glory, and to build our faith). I have no backbone...or I am spineless. I am seeking someone, a companion to be my backbone or to help me build a backbone but I feel like God won't bless me with someone like that because I don't deserve it and he just wants me to build my own backbone for myself with Him but I've failed to do that so far my entire life. Meanwhile, I've seen and heard of other people who had little to no faith too but were blessed with a partner in life who was a strong believer and that person was their backbone and helped lead them to Christ Why can't I have that encouragement? I don't get any encouragement at all. It's as if God is telling me, "I will not give you what you want because you are not worthy. You will have to do it alone OR fail trying. There will be no other course for me."

I remember Paul said somewhere, "if you cannot control yourself then it is better for you to marry. Better to be in marriage than to burn with passion." Yes. That is me. I will and just burn in passion and that is going to be the death of me unless God can help me.

Hello seeker. It sounds like you sometimes stumble, but that does not mean that you fall. There is a difference. When you stumble you keep on. This scripture is slightly out of context but I believe it applies to us too:
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)
Don't compare yourself to others this could cause you to stumble too. The Lord has a unique plan and a purpose for you that no-one else can fulfill. God Bless

 

[Emun]

Can I get some of your guys opinions on this issue?
Does the Bible teach that once you are saved, you can always saved or can you actually fall out of your salvation
by rejecting it and living a non-Christian life? Or would that indicate that you were never truly saved to begin with?

Albert Barnes' comment on Matthew 7:23:
That is, I never approved of your conduct; never loved you; never regarded you as my friends. See Psalm 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Corinthians 8:3. This proves that, with all their pretensions, they had never been true followers of Christ. Jesus will not then say to false prophets and false professors of religion that he had once known them and then rejected them; that they had been once Christians and then had fallen away; that they had been pardoned and then had apostatized but that he had never known them - they had never been true christians. Whatever might have been their pretended joys, their raptures, their hopes, their self-confidence, their visions, their zeal, they had never been regarded by the Saviour as his true friends. I do not know of a more decided proof that Christians do not fall from grace than this text. It settles the question; and proves that whatever else such people had, they never had any true religion. See 1 John 2:19.

 

[seeker2122]

Albert Barnes' comment on Matthew 7:23:
That is, I never approved of your conduct; never loved you; never regarded you as my friends. See Psalm 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Corinthians 8:3. This proves that, with all their pretensions, they had never been true followers of Christ. Jesus will not then say to false prophets and false professors of religion that he had once known them and then rejected them; that they had been once Christians and then had fallen away; that they had been pardoned and then had apostatized but that he had never known them - they had never been true christians. Whatever might have been their pretended joys, their raptures, their hopes, their self-confidence, their visions, their zeal, they had never been regarded by the Saviour as his true friends. I do not know of a more decided proof that Christians do not fall from grace than this text. It settles the question; and proves that whatever else such people had, they never had any true religion. See 1 John 2:19.

Thank you very good Scriptures.
So let's use a more relatable example.

Based on this scriptural teaching or logic being applied (it's possible that we are misinterpreting the meaning of Matthew 7:23 and 1 John 2:19),
it would be like saying that my wife of 40 years just recently left me for another man. That means that she NEVER TRULY loved me? I sort of have to disagree. It is possible in my mind that someone REALLY DID LOVE YOU for those 40 years and never ever thought or planned to leave you
for someone else. But we are human. Our promises are not unbreakable. Our faith is not perfect. My wife could have left me because she and I grew out of love for each other over the years and the breaking point came when a new opportunity (much better one) presented itself for her.

It does kind of seem like a fairytale view that if someone divorces you, that means they never truly loved you. If someone stays with you, it means they truly love you.

I think it is possible (the more dirty and messy view) that people can truly love each other but one day fall out of it and leave and you can't say that they never really loved you when they really did at least for the first few years or decades. I'm just making an illustration.
What do you think about this example when people divorce. Does that mean that every single divorce that ever happened meant those two people never truly loved each other rather than they did love each other but they fell out of love and could no longer keep their promises or covenant of love with their partner.


Another example would be sports related example:
Some people believe that in order to be a true great in your sport, you'd have to have won the championship. If you've never won it,
it means you weren't truly great or greatest. Of course we only remember as the greatest the people who have won the championships.
We would never regard someone who never won the prize as being the greatest of the sport. But I do believe it is possible that the greatest ever player could be one that never won the championship. I don't think saying that since they never won the championship, disqualifies them from "never truly being a great" or "they were never great after all".

 

[didactics]

Thank you very good Scriptures.
So let's use a more relatable example.

Based on this scriptural teaching or logic being applied (it's possible that we are misinterpreting the meaning of Matthew 7:23 and 1 John 2:19),
it would be like saying that my wife of 40 years just recently left me for another man. That means that she NEVER TRULY loved me? I sort of have to disagree. It is possible in my mind that someone REALLY DID LOVE YOU for those 40 years and never ever thought or planned to leave you
for someone else. But we are human. Our promises are not unbreakable. Our faith is not perfect. My wife could have left me because she and I grew out of love for each other over the years and the breaking point came when a new opportunity (much better one) presented itself for her.

It does kind of seem like a fairytale view that if someone divorces you, that means they never truly loved you. If someone stays with you, it means they truly love you.

I think it is possible (the more dirty and messy view) that people can truly love each other but one day fall out of it and leave and you can't say that they never really loved you when they really did at least for the first few years or decades. I'm just making an illustration.
What do you think about this example when people divorce. Does that mean that every single divorce that ever happened meant those two people never truly loved each other rather than they did love each other but they fell out of love and could no longer keep their promises or covenant of love with their partner.


Another example would be sports related example:
Some people believe that in order to be a true great in your sport, you'd have to have won the championship. If you've never won it,
it means you weren't truly great or greatest. Of course we only remember as the greatest the people who have won the championships.
We would never regard someone who never won the prize as being the greatest of the sport. But I do believe it is possible that the greatest ever player could be one that never won the championship. I don't think saying that since they never won the championship, disqualifies them from "never truly being a great" or "they were never great after all".

Not speaking for Emun but I thought I'd give you my own take.
In 1 Timothy 4:7 when it says “discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness” the word Paul used for discipline was gumnazō, where we get the word gymnastics or gymnasium, meaning, generally, to exercise, train the body or mind (found in 3 other verses Heb 5:14, 12:11; 2Pe 2:14). You will notice in other ways the word is used, it describes sinners being trained in unrighteousness because we are designed as creatures of habit. Thinking on your illustration of who potentially is the best athlete, we may never know, but one thing is for sure, it can’t be just anybody for all need to be trained well on a daily bases.



Regarding your example of divorce, I’m reminded of the words of Jesus, “from the beginning it was not so” as the conditions for divorce came after (Mt 19:8). Even so, it wasn’t like Adam and Eve needed to remarry once they fell from grace and were kicked out of the garden for their sin.