Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

??

My sentiments exactly.

You' don't believe in imputed righteousness?

Apparently not, which would be contrary to Scripture.

Or that the one who sins isn't HEEDing.
God can guide and we can ignore or even miss hearing Him.

Isn't this only half of the equation though?
What about IF we DO sin?
What does God say happens IF we sin.
We die?
Jesus died for us and now we die too?

1 John 1:8-10 "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

1 John 2:1-2 "1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

If we can die for our sins after accepting Christ as our Savior, then He did NOT bear those sins and nail them to the cross, ONCE AND FOR ALL (Isaiah 53:5-6; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 7:27; 9:21-28; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18). If His sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient enough to atone for our sins (Romans 3:25; 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 4:10), then which of our sins did He die for? If Jesus did not atone for our sins on the cross and His suffering and death was not sufficient enough to appease God's wrath against us, then we are still eternally condemned. And if we are still eternally condemned, then the Gospel cannot be the power of God unto salvation for EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES (Romans 1:16). If we can be eternally condemned after making our confession for Christ, would that not make God out to be a liar, because He said the Gospel is His power unto salvation for EVERYONE who believes? And what about His testimony He gave of Jesus (1 John 5:9-13)? I have asked all of these questions and have discussed these exact same issues numerous times before, but I feel they are all worth repeating. It is the POWER OF GOD that WILL justify us because of our belief and our faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:21-26, 5:1-11, 10:9-10; Ephesians 1:7-10, 2:4-10; Galatians 3:21-25; 1 Peter 1:3-9; 1 John 5:9-13, 20). In Him we also trusted, after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation; in whom also, having believed, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory (Ephesians 1:13-14). It will ultimately be the POWER OF GOD that WILL present us faultless before the presence of His glory (Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24-25).

 

[Giver]

My sentiments exactly.



Apparently not, which would be contrary to Scripture.



1 John 1:8-10 "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

1 John 2:1-2 "1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

If we can die for our sins after accepting Christ as our Savior, then He did NOT bear those sins and nail them to the cross, ONCE AND FOR ALL (Isaiah 53:5-6; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 7:27; 9:21-28; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18). If His sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient enough to atone for our sins (Romans 3:25; 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 4:10), then which of our sins did He die for? If Jesus did not atone for our sins on the cross and His suffering and death was not sufficient enough to appease God's wrath against us, then we are still eternally condemned. And if we are still eternally condemned, then the Gospel cannot be the power of God unto salvation for EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES (Romans 1:16). If we can be eternally condemned after making our confession for Christ, would that not make God out to be a liar, because He said the Gospel is His power unto salvation for EVERYONE who believes? And what about His testimony He gave of Jesus (1 John 5:9-13)? I have asked all of these questions and have discussed these exact same issues numerous times before, but I feel they are all worth repeating. It is the POWER OF GOD that WILL justify us because of our belief and our faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:21-26, 5:1-11, 10:9-10; Ephesians 1:7-10, 2:4-10; Galatians 3:21-25; 1 Peter 1:3-9; 1 John 5:9-13, 20). In Him we also trusted, after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation; in whom also, having believed, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory (Ephesians 1:13-14). It will ultimately be the POWER OF GOD that WILL present us faultless before the presence of His glory (Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24-25).

Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.” Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

 

[Rev Randy]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

I'd say the guy was having an all around bad day. First he's confused as he's paying for sex when he has a wife at home. Second he's calling himself Christian and third he get's shot.
Heaven or hell? That's God's decision. His shoes are not shoes I'd care to wear. OSAS? If someone is using such as an excuse to sin, I'd say they are playing a game with a serious matter.

 

[Going Merry]

Has anyone proven osas yet?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Has anyone proven osas yet?

Nope

 

[Rev Randy]

Has anyone proven osas yet?

ROFL

 

[sunlover1]

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

Hi, thank you for the reply.

But what about IF we DO sin?
What does God say happens IF we sin.
Here's what God says:

If we confess our sins, (God thinks we sin)
he is faithful and just (Would be UNJUST for Him to withhold forgiveness after it's been paid for by Christ)
and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (And who purifies me? God does it)

Just wondered what your thoughts were on this, according to
your beliefs. I can't see how you can make any sense out of this
passage if we , as you say, are not His if we sin.

And I can get to your other passages too,
I don't want you to think I missed them.
But this is what I'd originally asked you.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Yes you should have noticed that the scriptures were out of context, and most were from before Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit to keep us from sin.

Why don’t you try and refute the verses I quote? You come on with you snide remarks, but don’t seem to have much to add.

I have to speak in MotherPrayer's defence here. her remarks were not snide and she is sincerely following many lines of enquiry as she matures in the faith. A genuine seeker after God I think. In meeting you she has met someone who places himself as the equal of Christ alone, a perfectly sinless man. 40 years of sinlessness must be hard to achieve - never a cross word, never a lustful thought, no sense of pride, or of a job well done. 40 years.

I'd say I envy you, but envy is a sin. Nevertheless I try daily to walk in perfection, as called to do by my saviour but failing miserably because of my still sinful flesh. A bit like Paul said he did.

I hope that when you die you enjoy your eternity. Personally, if I believed what you do I'd be worried that I'd have no one to talk to.

 

[Going Merry]

If we confess our sins, (God thinks we sin)
he is faithful and just (Would be UNJUST for Him to withhold forgiveness after it's been paid for by Christ)

I have different thinking. Jesus' sacrifice is the forgiveness, and it's already been done. If someone believes, they are already covered because he has already been forgiven. Future sins included, and i would like to say we are all in the future so.. what we have done was also paid for? Yes future sins

 

[squint]

Has anyone proven osas yet?

There are quite a few that believe it beneficial to intentionally potentially condemn other believers who have called upon the Lord to save them, to instead make our Savior their eternal killer or torturer.

Of course they are all doing our Savior a service in that aren't they?

lol

 

[Going Merry]

I have to speak in MotherPrayer's defence here. her remarks were not snide and she is sincerely following many lines of enquiry as she matures in the faith. A genuine seeker after God I think. In meeting you she has met someone who places himself as the equal of Christ alone, a perfectly sinless man. 40 years of sinlessness must be hard to achieve - never a cross word, never a lustful thought, no sense of pride, or of a job well done. 40 years.

I'd say I envy you, but envy is a sin. Nevertheless I try daily to walk in perfection, as called to do by my saviour but failing miserably because of my still sinful flesh. A bit like Paul said he did.

I hope that when you die you enjoy your eternity. Personally, if I believed what you do I'd be worried that I'd have no one to talk to.

Idk about Givers beliefs but. That's pretty offensive. Personally I believe I haven't had sin since I was born again too. I have sinned after being born again. But I said I haven't had sin since I was born again. I say that because I am thinking about the whole situation fundamentally different I guess. I believe his baptism took up all the worlds sin; so he was carrying these sins i committed. Then he was crucified paying their wages off. How can I have sin then if I believe in him? he blotted out the worlds sin.. this doesnt mean i believe in OSAS, if you leave the faith you're dead.

 

[Giver]

Hi, thank you for the reply.

But what about IF we DO sin?
What does God say happens IF we sin.
Here's what God says:

If we confess our sins, (God thinks we sin)
he is faithful and just (Would be UNJUST for Him to withhold forgiveness after it's been paid for by Christ)
and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (And who purifies me? God does it)

Just wondered what your thoughts were on this, according to
your beliefs. I can't see how you can make any sense out of this
passage if we , as you say, are not His if we sin.

And I can get to your other passages too,
I don't want you to think I missed them.
But this is what I'd originally asked you.

When God makes a home in him or her then he keeps them from all uprightness.

I believe and know from Jesus that one who knows God will not sin. That does not mean he or she can’t sin, but will never be tempted to sin beyond the grace God gives him or her to defeat Satan/sin.

 

[Going Merry]

There are quite a few that believe it beneficial to intentionally potentially condemn other believers who have called upon the Lord to save them, to instead make our Savior their eternal killer or torturer.

Of course they are all doing our Savior a service in that aren't they?

lol

I believe there is a time to condemn others when they fall into false doctrine. For their own benefit

 

[Going Merry]

When God makes a home in him or her then he keeps them from all uprightness.

I believe and know from Jesus that one who knows God will not sin. That does not mean he or she can’t sin, but will never be tempted to sin beyond the grace God gives him or her to defeat Satan/sin.

If you pray anyways... Or if you don't do Gods work... I know that its impossible to sin if you pray. Or if you are doing Gods work then its impossible to sin. Jesus warned his believers to pray since 'the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak'. But he also showed a verse in the foot washing where Jesus said 'those who are bathed need only to wash their feet, but are completely clean' so although a believer may sin their belief keeps them completely clean. I have always said to wash your feet is to ruminate on the gospel, since it is not prayer that gives you the forgiveness of sins (people praying for forgiveness of their sin...) but rather belief in Jesus that gives the forgiveness of sin (acts 10:43)

 

[squint]

I believe there is a time to condemn others when they fall into false doctrine. For their own benefit

Quite a different matter than the intentions to eternally kill believers or burn them alive forever.

That is the action of wolves in the heart.

s

 

[Going Merry]

Quite a different matter than the intentions to eternally kill believers or burn them alive forever.

That is the action of wolves in the heart.

s

Mm well I can't speak for others. Although I refuse to accept many people, it doesn't mean I want anyone to be condemned. I just am trying to understand Gods word to the best of my ability and I like sharing this with others

 

[squint]

Mm well I can't speak for others. Although I refuse to accept many people, it doesn't mean I want anyone to be condemned. I just am trying to understand Gods word to the best of my ability and I like sharing this with others

After you've been around the block with these various 'believers' you'll find it a commonality of a working in their hearts that sez

"if you don't listen to me you might spend eternity in hell."

It's a form of sickness that comes with the territory of faith.

s

 

[seeingeyes]

After you've been around the block with these various 'believers' you'll find it a commonality of a working in their hearts that sez

"if you don't listen to me you might spend eternity in hell."

It's a form of sickness that comes with the territory of faith.

s

Have patience, brother. That's the same line they hear from their God. We are each the child of our father, but that's a difficult thing to examine, indeed.

Lord have mercy.

 

[motherprayer]

I have to speak in MotherPrayer's defence here. her remarks were not snide and she is sincerely following many lines of enquiry as she matures in the faith. A genuine seeker after God I think. In meeting you she has met someone who places himself as the equal of Christ alone, a perfectly sinless man. 40 years of sinlessness must be hard to achieve - never a cross word, never a lustful thought, no sense of pride, or of a job well done. 40 years.

I'd say I envy you, but envy is a sin. Nevertheless I try daily to walk in perfection, as called to do by my saviour but failing miserably because of my still sinful flesh. A bit like Paul said he did.

I hope that when you die you enjoy your eternity. Personally, if I believed what you do I'd be worried that I'd have no one to talk to.

Thank you my friend! I honestly WASN'T being snide, and I have nothing to refute for the reason you said - I'm trying to learn! It is amazingly hard to learn from those who claim to be perfect about how they came about their perfection, as when I ask questions, I end up accused.

I'm trying to figure the sinless thing, really. Partially as a result of real life experience. I don't understand either OSAS OR sinless perfection. They both seem off, for reasons I can't verbalize or explain.

I look at my own life, which is lived in service to God any way I can. I really do my best. I never allow for excuses, and when I mess up, I am always quick to go to the Lord in prayer and ask for forgiveness of my goofs.

Have I lost my salvation a thousand times because I got mad at God, cursed, yelled, felt envy, or pride? I can't see salvation as fluid either though. I love the Lord. He has spoken to me and changed my life. I worship Him, I praise Him.

I ask questions, because they relate to ME. Unlike others here, I don't remember ever directly challenging Giver's sinlessness, only asked for clarification ON IT. And also, other questions, because at the end of my inquiry is one question: Am "I" saved? And more: Did I lose my salvation the first time I cursed after I got baptized? Did I lose my salvation because, after I dedicated my life to the Lord I was living with a man who was not my husband? Was I not saved until I married the man who is my husband now?

Sin is a big, passionate issue for many, for many reasons. If we could reason together instead of arguing, maybe we'd come to some form of agreement.

Okay, rant over. I love you Crimson. I appreciate your acknowledgement of my sincere questions. You are a true friend in Christ

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

I have to speak in MotherPrayer's defence here. her remarks were not snide and she is sincerely following many lines of enquiry as she matures in the faith. A genuine seeker after God I think. In meeting you she has met someone who places himself as the equal of Christ alone, a perfectly sinless man. 40 years of sinlessness must be hard to achieve - never a cross word, never a lustful thought, no sense of pride, or of a job well done. 40 years.

I'd say I envy you, but envy is a sin. Nevertheless I try daily to walk in perfection, as called to do by my saviour but failing miserably because of my still sinful flesh. A bit like Paul said he did.

I hope that when you die you enjoy your eternity. Personally, if I believed what you do I'd be worried that I'd have no one to talk to.

QFT. Apparently, he hasn't even stumbled at one point (James 2:10) in the last 40 years.