Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[squint]

I don't understand either OSAS OR sinless perfection. They both seem off, for reasons I can't verbalize or explain.

OSAS as it is commonly taught doesn't really hold water.

Let's take a simple 'real look' at Paul.

Here is Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

To someone who can read, they 'might' actually see Paul and the messenger of Satan there with/in Paul's flesh.

Paul was saved.

The messenger of Satan was not and will not be saved.

Paul taught this in many places in the text. So did Jesus. So did John. So did Peter, the writer of Hebrews, etc etc.

It's a very consistent principle in the texts.

IF and when a believer 'is allowed' to get a real look at Paul and what he taught, they will be allowed to divide this matter properly.

But most believers are not allowed to get an accurate picture of themselves from what Paul taught, and Paul teaches that they won't and can't.

s

 

[squint]

QFT. Apparently, he hasn't even stumbled at one point (James 2:10) in the last 40 years.

or

he is very fond of the drama it stirs up

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

or

he is very fond of the drama it stirs up

That could very well be true.

 

[crimsonleaf]

It is possible to sin repeatedly in various ways and have those sins forgiven after repentance. Genuine repentance isn't just sorrow and apologies, it's a sincere desire to never repeat the offence. Sometimes sin gets the better of us despite our sincere desires. We are weak, even after salvation. Sanctification is the gradual process which follows regeneration and repentance in which we genuinely desire to be more Christlike.

Being "dead to sin" and "sinning" are, however, two different things. We believe that man, corrupted since Adam's sin, is by nature sinful and corrupt, and that by his own will can never turn to God. He is "dead to sin". Once saved man is no longer dead to sin, but may nevertheless still sin. The "term dead to sin" describes a man's nature, the term "sinning" describes his acts. I see the terms used interchangeably here, which is wrong.

It is therefore the case that man can continue to sin while no longer being dead to sin.

I add this as a general contribution and not to address a specific point.

 

[motherprayer]

It is possible to sin repeatedly in various ways and have those sins forgiven after repentance. Genuine repentance isn't just sorrow and apologies, it's a sincere desire to never repeat the offence. Sometimes sin gets the better of us despite our sincere desires. We are weak, even after salvation. Sanctification is the gradual process which follows regeneration and repentance in which we genuinely desire to be more Christlike.

Being "dead to sin" and "sinning" are, however, two different things. We believe that man, corrupted since Adam's sin, is by nature sinful and corrupt, and that by his own will can never turn to God. He is "dead to sin". Once saved man is no longer dead to sin, but may nevertheless still sin. The "term dead to sin" describes a man's nature, the term "sinning" describes his acts. I see the terms used interchangeably here, which is wrong.

It is therefore the case that man can continue to sin while no longer being dead to sin.

I add this as a general contribution and not to address a specific point.

See, now, THIS makes sense. It seems to be a balance between the two opposites.

I've always believed there is a goal we should be striving for, which is, as you say, sanctification. We should work to get there with prayer and supplication, with accountability and responsibility. I will never be one to justify someone's mess-up by saying "Oh that's okay, nobody's perfect." But then, I don't go to the other extreme by saying "Well guess you're no longer part of the Kingdom."

His grace is SUFFICIENT.

 

[Hentenza]

Nope

Just a question. Do you think that the Christian martyrs throughout the centuries willingly went to their deaths without having assurance that they would be with Jesus?

 

[Hentenza]

Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.” Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

EVERY single verse that you misuse here to attempt to prove the prefectionism of mankind has been soundly refuted many, many times before. And yet you continue to be obstinate. What you preach is the sufficiency of man which negates the need for God. There is no one sinless (except Christ), none, ALL need a savior, including you.

 

[Hentenza]

OSAS as it is commonly taught doesn't really hold water.

Let's take a simple 'real look' at Paul.

Here is Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

To someone who can read, they 'might' actually see Paul and the messenger of Satan there with/in Paul's flesh.

Paul was saved.

The messenger of Satan was not and will not be saved.

Paul taught this in many places in the text. So did Jesus. So did John. So did Peter, the writer of Hebrews, etc etc.

It's a very consistent principle in the texts.

IF and when a believer 'is allowed' to get a real look at Paul and what he taught, they will be allowed to divide this matter properly.

But most believers are not allowed to get an accurate picture of themselves from what Paul taught, and Paul teaches that they won't and can't.

s

Gnostics taught similarly. We don't need a special knowledge to understand Paul, or any of the bible for that matter, since the ministry of the Holy Spirit is sufficient for learning and daily living.

Of course, you have been given this special knowledge but the rest of us have not. Huh?

 

[squint]

Gnostics taught similarly.

Oh please H.

I put up a simple fact. Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh by his own statement. Your spin that his own claim is gnostic is quite absurd.

Jesus taught no differently either.

We don't need a special knowledge to understand Paul,

I might suggest an ability to read simple English is about it.

Nice try on the spin though H. Not sure why you pull these stunts but whatever.

Anyone who can read English can read Mark 4:15 AND see Jesus statement that where the Word is sown Satan not only can but does enter the heart to steal same.

Does that look like special knowledge to you?

lame H. very lame.

s

 

[Hentenza]

Oh please H.

I put up a simple fact. Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh by his own statement. Your spin that his own claim is gnostic is quite absurd.

Jesus taught no differently either.



I might suggest an ability to read simple English is about it.

Nice try on the spin though H. Not sure why you pull these stunts but whatever.

Anyone who can read English can read Mark 4:15 AND see Jesus statement that where the Word is sown Satan not only can but does enter the heart to steal same.

Does that look like special knowledge to you?

lame H. very lame.

s

1. How do you know that Paul was saved?
2. Do you think that Paul was one of those believers described in Mark 4:15-19 or do you think that Paul was one of those believers described in Mark 4:20?
3. Do you think that those believers described in Mark 4:20 do not have thorns IN the flesh?

 

[Giver]

It is possible to sin repeatedly in various ways and have those sins forgiven after repentance. Genuine repentance isn't just sorrow and apologies, it's a sincere desire to never repeat the offence. Sometimes sin gets the better of us despite our sincere desires. We are weak, even after salvation. Sanctification is the gradual process which follows regeneration and repentance in which we genuinely desire to be more Christlike.

Being "dead to sin" and "sinning" are, however, two different things. We believe that man, corrupted since Adam's sin, is by nature sinful and corrupt, and that by his own will can never turn to God. He is "dead to sin". Once saved man is no longer dead to sin, but may nevertheless still sin. The "term dead to sin" describes a man's nature, the term "sinning" describes his acts. I see the terms used interchangeably here, which is wrong.

It is therefore the case that man can continue to sin while no longer being dead to sin.

I add this as a general contribution and not to address a specific point.

How do you rationalize/justify your opinion/understanding of sin after reading the following scripture?

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God”

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

 

[motherprayer]

How do you rationalize/justify your opinion/understanding of sin after reading the following scripture?

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God”

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

I'd like it if you could address my previous post. I did quote Crimson, but it was also in a way a response to your belief that I was being snide. Maybe you could help me to understand better?

 

[squint]

1. How do you know that Paul was saved?

How do you know Jesus was?

Is this supposed to be some credible conversation at this point?

Most of us take it as a normal course of fact that we take our 'factual positions' from A. Our native language and B. From the scriptures.

2. Do you think that Paul was one of those believers described in Mark 4:15-19

Why don't you look at Paul's statements for himself and figure it out for yourself?

I can clearly read without any 'gnosticism' required whatsoever these facts about Paul:

A. He was turned from the power of whom unto God? Uh, yeah, Satan.

B. He was still a sinner post salvation

C. That he himself stated he had evil present with him and a messenger of Satan in his flesh

D. That the sin that indwelt him was NOT him

E. That he warned us about being 'retaken' as slaves of the devil by the devil's will

F. That sin is in fact of the devil

Now, would you like to go on and say that these matters of Paul are not connected to Satan, the devil whatsoever?

I can not in good honesty overlook simple facts H.

But then again most believers (except a certain one I know) accept the fact that the tempter tempts us all in MIND. I would be a little embarrassed not to be able to see that fact, but whatever.

or do you think that Paul was one of those believers described in Mark 4:20?

All unbelievers are factually blinded by the god of this world per Paul's own teaching in 2 Cor. 4:4 and MANY other places.

What is it you are not picking up on here from the presentations of facts?

There is a bottom line on these matters. That bottom line is that no person using even a basic amount of reasoning abilities can logically come to the conclusion that believers are alone in matters of sin or temptation. And that also means it is pointless to look at ourselves, ALONE, that way when that is obviously not the case.

3. Do you think that those believers described in Mark 4:20 do not have thorns IN the flesh?

We can not say we have no sin and be in Truth. You know that.

It does seem to be a great difficulty to couple that fact with John's statement of fact in 1 John 3:8 however because that means taking it personally and that is also where the wheels fall off isn't it?

?

s

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Gnostics taught similarly. We don't need a special knowledge to understand Paul, or any of the bible for that matter, since the ministry of the Holy Spirit is sufficient for learning and daily living.

Of course, you have been given this special knowledge but the rest of us have not. Huh?

I have felt exactly this way - "Of course, you have been given this special knowledge but the rest of us have not" toward many (the majority, in fact) of the opposing position to the assurance of salvation. I believe God's grace is more than sufficient for me, so I don't need to try and add to or take away from that. The Apostle Paul said, "For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day" (2 Timothy 1:12).

 

[sunlover1]

When God makes a home in him or her then he keeps them from all uprightness.

I think you meant that He keeps them IN uprightness?
Which Scriptures are you speaking from?
Mine says "keep YOURSELF pure"

I believe and know from Jesus that one who knows God will not sin.

But that's not what He said in Scripture...
He said one won't CONTINUE to sin...
If what you hear does NOT line up with Scripture, then disregard the voice.

That does not mean he or she can’t sin, but will never be tempted to sin beyond the grace God gives him or her to defeat Satan/sin.

I agree with that.
He said that He always provides a way out,
that we can stand up under it.
But He also said,
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father
in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

So IF i sin, according to GOD, I have an advocate in Christ.
According to you, IF I sin, I am not God's etc etc and so on.
See what I mean?

 

[motherprayer]

1. How do you know that Paul was saved?
2. Do you think that Paul was one of those believers described in Mark 4:15-19 or do you think that Paul was one of those believers described in Mark 4:20?
3. Do you think that those believers described in Mark 4:20 do not have thorns IN the flesh?

1. Yes. Paul finished His course. He gave his whole life and heart to God, and this is shown in the Books he wrote.
2. Paul WAS persecuted, so I can't imagine him being one of the believers mentioned in Mark. He mentioned the thorn in his own flesh so that his listeners could know that God gave him something to keep him from becoming prideful.
3. All believers have some form of thorn. There is a war between flesh and spirit which we must fight, in order to walk by the spirit. So yes.

 

[Hentenza]

How do you know Jesus was?

Is this supposed to be some credible conversation at this point?

Most of us take it as a normal course of fact that we take our 'factual positions' from A. Our native language and B. From the scriptures.

Jesus sits at the right hand of the father and Jesus was sinless so there is no question about Jesus being saved. Paul, however, had a thorn in his flesh that made him do evil. Since Paul does evil, and you absolutely believe that Paul is saved, then what saved Paul?

Why don't you look at Paul's statements for himself and figure it out for yourself?

I can clearly read without any 'gnosticism' required whatsoever these facts about Paul:

A. He was turned from the power of whom unto God? Uh, yeah, Satan.

B. He was still a sinner post salvation

C. That he himself stated he had evil present with him and a messenger of Satan in his flesh

D. That the sin that indwelt him was NOT him

E. That he warned us about being 'retaken' as slaves of the devil by the devil's will

F. That sin is in fact of the devil

Now, would you like to go on and say that these matters of Paul are not connected to Satan, the devil whatsoever?

I can not in good honesty overlook simple facts H.

But then again most believers (except a certain one I know) accept the fact that the tempter tempts us all in MIND. I would be a little embarrassed not to be able to see that fact, but whatever.

So, is Paul a believer described in Mark 4:15-19? Can the devil the devil come and take away the word that has been sown in Paul? Do you think that Paul planted his seed only temporary? Do you think that Paul seed "was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful?"

Now, Paul does sin so what say you?

All unbelievers are factually blinded by the god of this world per Paul's own teaching in 2 Cor. 4:4 and MANY other places.

Sure but then some will hear the word and plant their seed in good soil.

What is it you are not picking up on here from the presentations of facts?

What facts? You are murdering a verse to death and claiming that a special knowledge is needed to understand it.

There is a bottom line on these matters. That bottom line is that no person using even a basic amount of reasoning abilities can logically come to the conclusion that believers are alone in matters of sin or temptation. And that also means it is pointless to look at ourselves, ALONE, that way when that is obviously not the case.

Red herring since no one has claimed that believers are alone in matters of sin and temptation. Paul himself tells us that we can not be TEMPTED beyond what we can endure and that the Lord ALWAYS gives us a way out of temptation. The ministry of the Spirit is much more glorious than the ministry of death.
We can not say we have no sin and be in Truth. You know that.

It does seem to be a great difficulty to couple that fact with John's statement of fact in 1 John 3:8 however because that means taking it personally and that is also where the wheels fall off isn't it?

And yet John tells us in the chapter right before this one that "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the [b]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Don't you know what propitiation means?

 

[squint]

Jesus sits at the right hand of the father and Jesus was sinless so there is no question about Jesus being saved.

Uh, yeah. I kinda figured we might be on the same page there H.

Paul, however, had a thorn in his flesh that made him do evil.

Paul had a messenger of Satan. Some read that plain statement and say 'what was it?' like it's some mystery.

A messenger of Satan the last time I checked is A DEVIL.

So to try to make the thorn into anything else but a messenger of Satan is again kind of lame. A messenger of Satan is A THORN.

Since Paul does evil, and you absolutely believe that Paul is saved, then what saved Paul?

My point in bringing that up is that matters of any believer are not just matters of them alone or of Paul alone are they?

One of the parties in the flesh of Paul, that would be PAUL, was saved.

And I'd like to think we can see the other party, the messenger of Satan was not and can not possibly be saved.

So, OSAS viewed upon anyone really does not apply across the board to that believer does it?

It's more interesting than just that.

So, is Paul a believer described in Mark 4:15-19?

Everyone is prior to belief per Paul's own teachings. 2 Cor. 4:4, Romans 11:8.

How do you think we got wrapped up in matters of sin to begin with?

Where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart... PER JESUS.

You are welcome to think you are an exception. I don't consider myself an exception nor do I think Paul was an exception by his own claims to himself.

Can the devil the devil come and take away the word that has been sown in Paul?

Paul saw only in part and as in/through darkness. I think it is logical that the messenger of Satan, the EVIL PRESENT with Paul had something to do with that.

Do you think that Paul planted his seed only temporary?

I'm not aware of Paul's seed being presented in the text. Sorry. Paul taught/sowed the Word of God right out of the Old Testament by The Spirit of God in Christ upon him to do so.

Do you think that Paul seed "was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful?"

Do I think the tare/thorn is the messenger of Satan? Undoubtedly.

Now, Paul does sin so what say you?

I don't see that matter as just a matter of Paul. Why would you?

We can both read again Paul's own statements about how indwelling sin (not Paul) reacted adversely when coming into account with the Law in Romans 7. Paul couldn't do a thing about it because that is factually how 'indwelling sin' works. It reacts adversely against the Law regardless of the person's intentions.

Sure but then some will hear the word and plant their seed in good soil.

They can make any claims they want. It is those who are truthful who go on in the parable to produce. Liars are stopped dead in their tracks and can't get an accurate/honest picture of what they really are or consist of.

If they saw accurately they could easily connect the dot of their sin to be of the devil, which again would place that operator in the picture.

What facts? You are murdering a verse to death and claiming that a special knowledge is needed to understand it.

I have no idea where you are pulling that stunt from quite frankly.

Obviously we can both read the same scriptures in English and one of us appears to not see the other obvious party that is written about in black and white and then fruitlessly attempts a bizarre claim or two.

The only special knowledge I have is reading abilities.

Nice try though. Why you do this is quite strange. Quite.

So when you want to get past that claim maybe we can have a factual discussion sometime?

enjoy!

squint

 

[crimsonleaf]

How do you rationalize/justify your opinion/understanding of sin after reading the following scripture?

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God”

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

I agree with each of the scriptures and my own understanding remains unchanged.

The problem often comes when you view man's natural language as being doctrinally binding in every case. It isn't. I agree that Scripture is infallible and inspired, but that it is written using the idioms and patterns of the time. I do not believe that I am capable of moving a mountain with a speck of faith. Am I calling Jesus a liar? No, I'm applying a rational filter to understand fully what Jesus meant while understanding that He didn't literally mean that a small degree of faith in each person can cause major seismic upheaval worldwide.

The scriptures you quote are a mixture of admonishments, warnings and instructions. They are not for building doctrine with; cults build doctrines on single verses. I could post an equal amount of quotes which, on face value, would contradict those. It is fruitless.

It is clear that the saved will (and should) endeavour at all times to be sinless. It is equally clear that they (we) will fail, although over time we will move closer to our aims.

I will attack your comment about your own sinlessness. I believe you have shown the sins of pride and arrogance on here, in this thread. I don't mind, and I don't think you've lost your salvation. I believe that you've held a view for over 40 years which is going to take some shifting though.

 

[Giver]

I agree with each of the scriptures and my own understanding remains unchanged.

The problem often comes when you view man's natural language as being doctrinally binding in every case. It isn't. I agree that Scripture is infallible and inspired, but that it is written using the idioms and patterns of the time. I do not believe that I am capable of moving a mountain with a speck of faith. Am I calling Jesus a liar? No, I'm applying a rational filter to understand fully what Jesus meant while understanding that He didn't literally mean that a small degree of faith in each person can cause major seismic upheaval worldwide.

The scriptures you quote are a mixture of admonishments, warnings and instructions. They are not for building doctrine with; cults build doctrines on single verses. I could post an equal amount of quotes which, on face value, would contradict those. It is fruitless.

It is clear that the saved will (and should) endeavour at all times to be sinless. It is equally clear that they (we) will fail, although over time we will move closer to our aims.

I will attack your comment about your own sinlessness. I believe you have shown the sins of pride and arrogance on here, in this thread. I don't mind, and I don't think you've lost your salvation. I believe that you've held a view for over 40 years which is going to take some shifting though.

Thanks for giving me your rationalizations/opinion. It is quite a stretch to compare the verses that I quoted to verses cults may use. Also your remark is a very nasty insult to me.

I was and am personally taught about God by Jesus, and he taught me a Christian does not sin. John tells us that a Christian must walk as Jesus did. So you believe it seems; that Jesus walked as you walk?

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”