Once saved always saved. False?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation. It's about service, as ALL the examples of those identified as "elect" show quite easily.

You can say that about the use of the term, the Elect, but not of the verses that describe the Elect or Eternal Security without using the terminology we today use.

Please share any verse or verses that use the word "elect" that shows that election is to salvation.

In fact, John 6:64,70-71 prove that election is NOT about salvation. Judas was elected, but not to salvation. He was chosen to betray Jesus.

Every example of people described as being "elect" shows that they were chosen for service.

And don't forget 1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Election is to service, not salvation.

If you disagree, please share any verse that tells us that people are chosen for salvation.

And given the Calvinistic view that election is UN-conditional, include verses that show that salvation has no conditions, only election by God.

 

[Albion]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation. It's about service, as ALL the examples of those identified as "elect" show quite easily.

You've already said that, but I disagree. Consider John 10:28, for example.

"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

This is not saying that God's Elect were chosen for some particular task (service), but it is saying that he has His Elect, even though the word is not used.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

(1) So you are saying that Christ SUFFERED and PAID for the sins
of people who were NEVER MEANT to be saved... since the Bible
clearly teaches that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved?


(2) So you are saying that Christ SUFFERED and PAID for the sins
of people going to hell (to pay for their sins)? Please show me
where in the Bible it says that any sin must be paid TWICE.


(3) So you are saying that Christ SUFFERED and PAID for all sins
as a "contingency payment" or some sort of "promissory note"
for those who decide to follow Him?


Jim

It's a provisional atonement. It would be like me writing you a check to cancel out your debts, but it is up to you to take that check and cash it, and to send the money to your debtors. The debt is technically paid, but it is up to us to receive the gift or not. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (See: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2).

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation. It's about service, as ALL the examples of those identified as "elect" show quite easily.

You've already said that, but I disagree.

No problem. What verses tell us that people are unconditionally elected to salvation?

That would end the discussion.

Consider John 10:28, for example.

"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

This is not saying that God's Elect were chosen for some particular task (service), but it is saying that he has His Elect, even though the word is not used.

Wow. Quite an "interesting" take on this verse.

Yes, there is NO mention of the word "elect". So that's out as a proof text.

The verse isn't even about election. It's about eternal security. Who does Jesus give eternal life to? From v.27, it is "My sheep". And who are His sheep? Believers. From John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Notice the condition for being saved: "those who enter through Me". That is a clear reference to believing in Christ for salvation. Supported from Eph 2:8, that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

Salvation is clearly by a condition; faith in Christ.

 

[Albion]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑

No problem. What verses tell us that people are unconditionally elected to salvation?

I mentioned one such, John 10:28, and pointed out that it describes Election which is not linked to "service" (your contention) and does not use the word Elect.

There are others.

That would end the discussion.

Apparently not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@5thKingdom

Jesus said, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas...that should betray him...” (John 6:70-71). Judas was a chosen disciple, but through his own free will choice he did not maintain that calling or office, and thus he was condemned.

This is why salvation is conditional and not unconditional.

Side Note:

Some erroneously think God chooses devils (like Judas) to be one of His disciples, but that is not how Judas started out, though. God is holy and He does not hand pick evil devils to do His good work. Judas through his own transgression had fallen away. The Scriptures say that Judas betrayed the Lord. You cannot betray someone unless you were first loyal to them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"What verses tell us that people are unconditionally elected to salvation?"

I mentioned one such, John 10:28, and pointed out that it describes Election which is not linked to "service" (your contention) and does not use the word Elect.

Why do you think John 10:28 is about election?

There are others.

Well, that's helpful. So, where are they? John 10:28 isn't one of them.

I then concluded with:
"That would end the discussion."

Apparently not.

Yes, it would. A clear verse on the subject would most certainly do it.

But you cannot find ANY verse that clearly says that election is to salvation. It's just been a Calvinistic assumption for centuries. Like 4 centuries.

If you are correct, it should be easy to find just 1 verse that backs up your claim.

otoh, I can show you MANY examples of those described as being "elect" and NONE of them were for salvation.

You want to see them?

 

[Anthony2019]

We have been saved (Ephesians 2:8-9)
We are being saved (1 Corinthians 1:18)
We will be saved (Romans 5:9)
We are justified by faith and go through a lifelong process of sanctification. Jesus said that if a man remains in him and he in them, he will bear much fruit (John 15:5). Whoever perseveres to the end will be saved (Matthew 10:22).
Jesus also said "go and sin no more" (John 8:11). Repentance is not just a one off event, but something that we should be doing continually and the Lord will gladly forgive us. I believe that certain sins can jeapordise our salvation (1 John 5:16) especially apostasy, or grave (mortal) sins that are not repented of. But I also believe that God will absolutely forgive anyone who is contrite - when they return to Him they will always find mercy.

 

[5thKingdom]

It's a provisional atonement. It would be like me writing you a check to cancel out your debts, but it is up to you to take that check and cash it, and to send the money to your debtors. The debt is technically paid, but it is up to us to receive the gift or not. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (See: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2).

So you think Christ SUFFERED to pay for sins of people
HE KNEW were NEVER MEANT (and I quote) "to be forgiven"

That is hilarious.

You think the Atonement was just a "contingency payment"
(of SUFFERING) or a simple "promissory note" (of SUFFERING)

That really is a ridiculous idea,
with absolutely ZERO Biblical validity.

BTW:
I already showed (on this or another thread) how your "proof texts" for a "provisional Atonement" was the OPPOSITE of what you claimed.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

@5thKingdom

Jesus said, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas...that should betray him...” (John 6:70-71). Judas was a chosen disciple, but through his own free will choice he did not maintain that calling or office, and thus he was condemned.
This is why salvation is conditional and not unconditional.

You always ADD your (incorrect) theology into a text... and then,
after you have a false base... you build error on top of error.

Judas was NOT chosen to be saved... but to fulfill prophecy:

Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Another one of your man-made doctrines destroyed
in less than 2 minutes.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

You cannot betray someone unless you were first loyal to them.

[COLOR=#000000]Another man-made doctrine with [B]ZERO[/B] Biblical support.
Tell me... what chapter and verse supports your theory?


Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#ff0000]that the scripture might be fulfilled. [/COLOR][/B]


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation.

(1) First, if God "chose" or "elected" us to be "His sheep"
then we were saved BEFORE the foundation of the world
because God can never FAIL to do what He purposes...
or do you teach that God Fails?


(2) Scripture contradicts your "theory" about being chosen
to be saved. Assuming you can understand that "chosen" and
"elected" have the SAME MEANING. (I know... that might be
too much for you to comprehend)


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Jim

 

[Bible Highlighter]

[COLOR=#000000]Another man-made doctrine with [B]ZERO[/B] Biblical support.
Tell me... what chapter and verse supports your theory?


Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#ff0000]that the scripture might be fulfilled. [/COLOR][/B]


Jim

God knowing what is going to happen (i.e. Scripture being fulfilled) is not the same as God foreordaining what is going to happen. I mean, do you seriously believe God foreordained Judas to be a devil? Do you honestly believe God chose a devil to be one of His disciples?

Again, you fail to understand what words mean. To betray someone means that they had to be loyal at one point in time. Jesus is God and He could not choose a devil to be His disciple because God is holy and righteous. For what fellowship does light have with darkness? You want me to believe Judas did not betray Jesus and you want me to believe Judas did not fall. But Scripture says Judas fell by his transgression. We know Judas betrayed Jesus. A real betrayal and not a fake one.

 

[5thKingdom]

I mean, do you seriously believe God foreordained Judas to be a devil? Do you honestly believe God chose a devil to be one of His disciples?

Please tell me... what part of "that Scripture might be fulfilled"
do you NOT UNDERSTAND?


Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


When you select verses you LIKE and you reject or intentionally ignore
verses that contradict your doctrines... then you do not believe the
Gospel of the Bible. You are designing your own personal "gospel"


Jim

 

[Bible Highlighter]

[COLOR=#000000]Another man-made doctrine with [B]ZERO[/B] Biblical support.
Tell me... what chapter and verse supports your theory?


Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#ff0000]that the scripture might be fulfilled. [/COLOR][/B]


Jim

Psalms 41:9 prophesied about Judas’ betrayal.

“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me” (Psalms 41:9).

In other words, Jesus was a friend with Judas and he ate bread with him but he lifted up his heel against Jesus by His betrayal.

Also, I will quote what a fellow brother said in another thread.

Jesus called Judas one of his sheep!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16​

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time.

Source:
Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

 

[Albion]

I said:
"What verses tell us that people are unconditionally elected to salvation?"

Why do you think John 10:28 is about election?

The people he refers to are said to be guaranteed eternal life. That can only mean election. If not, the possibility would have to exist that any of those people might turn bad and/or renounce Christ and lose eternal life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The people he refers to are said to be guaranteed eternal life. That can only mean election. If not, the possibility would have to exist that any of those people might turn bad and/or renounce Christ and lose eternal life.

The qualification of eternal life and not being snatched out of His hand is following Jesus according to verse 27. We are told in many different ways to follow the Lord. So it is not a walk in the park and or something that is forced upon a person either before or after they are saved by God’s grace.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Salvation is repenting from your sin and putting your faith in Jesus Christ thru the gospel. Do it today and then only after seek God on whether conditional or eternal security is the correct one.

That sentence doesn't make any logical sense. If faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to get you saved, then you must have faith in something other than Jesus Christ. You're not putting your faith in Jesus alone in that case.

Because think about it. How do you get saved from hell? You must have faith in something. If Jesus doesn't save you, then just having faith in Jesus is no good. If repenting of your sins gets you saved, then it would be a better idea to have faith in your own repentance (rather than just have faith in Jesus). What this comes down to is having faith in yourself rather than having faith in Jesus.

 

[Albion]

That sentence doesn't make any logical sense. If faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to get you saved,...

Didn't he say that it IS enough?

Salvation is repenting from your sin and putting your faith in Jesus Christ thru the gospel. Do it today....

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Didn't he say that it IS enough?

Then those who believe in easy-believism are saved. They believe in Jesus. I wonder if he agrees on that one.