Once saved always saved. False?

[fhansen]

I don't know WHY you say this is "obvious".


I think it's "obvious" to all that Adam and Eve had true "free will"


but there is much controversy about the will of man after the fall.

Yes, there's been much controversy over the centuries on this but the church-east and west- never settled on any version that eliminated the role of man's will completely, as in strict determinism. It's beneficial to read the canons of the 2nd Council of Orange (529), all the way through including the Conclusion. Later the Council of Trent further clarifies by emphasizing the fact that, even at the beginning, at conversion, man's will is involved if only to the extent that he can resist and say no. Man has always been able to say no; if otherwise, then why the drama? Why the need for all the pain and evil and sin that resulted from our exile from Eden? Why even bother giving Adam a choice? Why not just stock heaven with the elect and hell with the rest?

But God continued to give man, broken, sick, fallen wounded, lost, asleep, and dead as he was, choices, via commands and covenants and grace. But while man is totally lost such that he cannot possibly find God (He must stir and move us towards Himself), we make a mistake in thinking that man’s "lostness" means that his will is so completely corrupted that he no longer has the power to even resist God’s overtures, to refuse to be found. God wants man’s will involved-for our good- and that’s why He didn’t prevent Adam from sinning, and that’s why He then continued to patiently work with man, drawing him towards the light, maturing humanity to the point where we might begin to accept that light on a larger, worldwide or universal scale beginning some 2000 years ago now.

Man’s basic problem or “flaw” in his fallen condition isn’t a new and changed nature but his exile, itself: his distancing from God, man’s creator and source of his existence. Man was made to know God-and exist in a state of communion with Him. Man’s injustice consists firstly in this disunion from God, no longer possessing the “knowledge of God” that speaks of a direct and personal, experiential knowledge or “knowing”. This is the knowledge Jesus came to reveal and restore. This is the knowledge spoken of in Jer 31:34 and in John 17:3:

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

This knowledge/relationship begins here, and is fully consummated in the next life as per 1 Cor 13:12. This knowledge is something we accept and opt for, and can later opt out of. As we opt for it, as we opt for God, and continue to do so, we grow in that option and the justice or righteousness that is entailed in it. We grow nearer to God and to the image of Him that he wishes to transform us into. This is what man’s purpose and perfection is all about, his teleios. We’re judged at the end of the day by how well we did with what we’ve been given and the criteria for that judgment is summed up by the virtue of love, the love of God and neighbor that naturally motivates right action the right way, fulfilling the law and the commandments and doing for “the least of these”, investing our talents and doing the good we must persist in doing to gain eternal life, all according to Scripture.

And as I see it I think we also need to recognize that if strict determinism/predestination is the order of the day then God is the direct, willful, and deliberate cause of every evil committed against, say, a child regardless of how atrocious. Can we really in good conscience follow that God?

 

[Albion]

Then those who believe in easy-believism are saved.

I don't think so. Unless I'm sorely mistaken, there was no mention of easy believism. There was a mention of faith, but that's altogether different.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

I don't think so. Unless I'm sorely mistaken, there was no mention of easy believism. There was a mention of faith, but that's altogether different.

Yeah, but his sentence didn't make logical sense. It's a contradiction.

 

[Albion]

Yeah, but his sentence didn't make logical sense. It's a contradiction.

He said that salvation is by faith. That's pretty standard stuff.

 

[5thKingdom]

Yes, there's been much controversy over the centuries on this

Yes, there has been much controversy over the issue of man's
"free will" after the fall.

but the church-east and west- never settled on any version that eliminated the role of man's will completely, as in strict determinism.

Yes, excuse me, I forgot you are Catholic.

As a Protestant I place NO FAITH in the decrees of the Catholic church.
I do trust the Bible, which says we are spiritually DEAD and slaves in
Satan's "Kingdom of Babylon". It would follow that ANY "free will"
we would exercise (in spiritual matters) would always be sinful as
that is our nature. We WANT to sin. We sin of our own "free will".
The Bible supports that fact in both the OT and NT. Romans 3:10-12 is quoting from Psalms 14 and 53:


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


It continues on describing the natural state of fallen men before
regeneration... and, it is not a pretty picture, but this is our natural
condition after the fall - if we dare to believe what the Bible says.


Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

It's beneficial to read the canons of the 2nd Council of Orange (529), all the way through including the Conclusion. Later the Council of Trent further clarifies by emphasizing the fact that, even at the beginning, at conversion, man's will is involved if only to the extent that he can resist and say no.

Can you show me any SCRIPTURE that says man is sovereign over
God, or that man's will can frustrate God's Will? Can you show me
any Scripture that says someone God has "elected" to become one
of "His Sheep" can resist God's purpose? Or that any man who was
NEVER MEANT (and I quote) "to be forgiven" can decide to become
one of "His Sheep"?


The Bible is very clear on this matter. In John 6 the Lord taught that
NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father first "draws" them and
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him... and He would lose
NONE of them.


In fact, when His disciples realized that Jesus was teaching salvation
by ELECTION, many immediately abandoned Him [John 6:65-66].
Now, WHY in the world would any man abandon the Son of God?
And the answer is obvious. They (like most men throughout history)
do not WANT a salvation plan were God is Sovereign and man can
do NOTHING be hope for God's mercy.


I realize it sounds strange to people who follow a synergistic gospel, but people like me, who follow a monergistic Gospel typically find a
great appreciation and comfort knowing that we play no part in the election process.

Man has always been able to say no; if otherwise, then why the drama? Why the need for all the pain and evil and sin that resulted from our exile from Eden? Why even bother giving Adam a choice? Why not just stock heaven with the elect and hell with the rest?

First, that is no argument. That is just an emotion.
Second, God ANSWERS that question in Romans 9:14-23
Third, you fail to consider the bigger picture of the battle going on
with Satan. Think about how Satan tempted Christ with rule over
all the kingdoms of the world (which were his to give)... we are but
pawns in a grand battle between God and Satan.


Consider this... there is a time BETWEEN when the Revelation Beast
is cast into the Lake of Fire [Rev 19:20] and when Satan and all the
"Kingdoms of Man" (governments of the world) JOIN THE BEAST
in the Lake [Rev 20:10]. God first destroys Satan's spiritual kingdom
(called Babylon the Great) and THEN God destroys Satan's physical
and political kingdoms.


The history of man is just a reflection of the salvation plan of God
over different "Kingdoms". There was the Pre-Flood Kingdom and
then the Jewish Kingdom [Mat 22:2], then the Christian Kingdom
[Mat 13] and finally the Great Tribulation Kingdom [Mat 25:1-13]
which is also called the Revelation Beast.


Satan "wins" if he can prevent a single "elect" from being saved.
Which is why Satan was "bound" during the Great Commission.
When the "testimony" of the church went throughout the world
(represented as two candlesticks and two olive trees) and when
that is "finished" [Rev 11:7] and the last saint is "saved/sealed"
[Rev 7:1-3] the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" [2Thes 2:6-9]
(because He "restrains") before Satan can be "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2] to RULE over the last "wheat and tares"
during the Great Tribulation Kingdom (aka the Revelation Beast).


These "wheat and tares" are called the "ten virgins" who "went forth"
from the Christian Kingdom into the Great Tribulation [Mat 25:1-13].
These "ten virgins" are also shown as ten "kings" and ten "horns"
(who are called "the saints") as they are RULED by the "Little Horn"
[Dan 7:24-25] and they are again called ten "kings" and ten "horns"
that agree to "give their power and strength" to the Revelation Beast [Rev 17:12-13] and they "agree to give their KINGDOM to the Beast"
[Rev 17:17]


The point is: God and Satan are in a battle where, after all the elect
are saved Satan is allowed to RULE until God destroys his spiritual
Kingdom of Babylon [Rev 19:20] and THEN God destroys Satan's
physical/political Kingdoms, and Satan JOINS THE BEAST in the Lake
[Rev 20:10].


So, when you say "what's the point" if God shows mercy on some
and not others... you have lost sight of the bigger picture. The fact is
Jesus was VERY CLEAR that some men were NEVER MEANT to be
saved [Mark 4:11-12]. In fact, the vast majority of the Pre-Flood
world was NEVER MEANT to be saved. And the vast majority of the
Jewish Kingdom was NEVER MEANT to be saved. And almost 100%
of Gentiles in the OT were NEVER MEANT to be saved. And the vast
majority living in the Church Age were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
Again, God specifically addresses this issue in Romans 9. He is the
Potter and we are just the clay.

But God continued to give man, broken, sick, fallen wounded, lost, asleep, and dead as he was, choices, via commands and covenants

That is so incorrect. The COMMAND to repent and not sin is never
NEGATED because fallen man is spiritually DEAD and a slave in Satan's
Kingdom and, therefore, not able to obey the command... in fact,
they don't (can't) even truly WANT to obey because of our sin nature.
REMEMBER Romans 3... there is NONE that seek God, no, not one.

But while man is totally lost such that he cannot possibly find God
(He must stir and move us towards Himself),

Please read Romans 3:10-12 again.
God says NO MAN will seek Him or do any good. No, not even one.

we make a mistake in thinking that man’s "lostness" means that his will is so completely corrupted that he no longer has the power to even resist God’s overtures, to refuse to be found. God wants man’s will involved-for our good- and that’s why He didn’t prevent Adam from sinning, and that’s why He then continued to patiently work with man, drawing him towards the light, maturing humanity to the point where we might begin to accept that light on a larger, worldwide or universal scale beginning some 2000 years ago now.

As I have already said, Satan was "bound" during the Church Age
for the specific purpose that the saints could "seek and save" all of
the "lost sheep". But the vast majority of people in the world over
the last 2000 years were NEVER MEANT to be saved... we know
that because the vast majority were not even Christian, and those
who were - included many unsaved "tares" sown by Satan among
the saved "wheat" sown by God.


So, most of what you said above is simply wishful thinking from
the perspective of MAN and not GOD. God did not prevent Adam
from rebelling because he had TRUE "free will". And God has NOT
(and I quote) "... continued to patiently work with man, drawing him towards the light, maturing humanity to the point where we might begin to accept that light on a larger, worldwide or universal scale..."


The idea of "maturing humanity" and "accepting the light" are
nothing but man-made fantasies. Remember what Jesus said:
NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father "draws" them and
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him and He will lose
NONE. This is how it was during the Pre-Flood Kingdom and this
is how it was during the Jewish Kingdom and this is how it was
during the Christian Kingdom and the Great Tribulation Kingdom.



The HISTORY of man is simply a reflection of God's salvation plan
over these separate "Kingdoms". ALL that He elected are saved,
and NO OTHERS. When Adam rebelled against God and chose
to follow Satan (in that day) he spiritually DIED. And all of his
offspring are born spiritually DEAD because of that "original sin"...
I remember the nuns teaching that clearly - it is no mystery.


So all of humanity was destined to hell. However, God wanted
to have a people for Himself and He "elected" who He would save,
before He even created Adam, based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and NOT on any good or evil those men would do in their lives.


The fact that God only "elected" SOME to salvation does NOT
mean that He predestined all the rest to hell... Adam did that.

Man’s basic problem or “flaw” in his fallen condition isn’t a new and changed nature but his exile, itself: his distancing from God, man’s creator and source of his existence.

No, man's TOTAL problem is he is born spiritually DEAD and a slave
in Satan's Kingdom of Babylon, completely unable to do any good.
Please read Romans 3:10-12 again... NO MAN will ever seek God,
no, not even one. And THAT is totally because of his sin nature.
Man being cast out of the Garden was the demonstration that he
had been cast out of God's Kingdom into Satan's Kingdom. The
problem is NOT one of distance, the problem is spiritual DEATH.


Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Man's problem is very simple... he is spiritually DEAD.
Man can not "seek God" or do "any good" until AFTER he has
been regenerated. And THAT is a Sovereign decision of God alone.
All (real) repentance is the RESULT of regeneration, not the CAUSE.

Man was made to know God-and exist in a state of communion with Him.

And that is the condition of Adam BEFORE he rebelled and (in that day)
became spiritually DEAD. However, that is NEVER the condition of
Almighty God and DEAD men.

Man’s injustice consists firstly in this disunion from God, no longer possessing the “knowledge of God” that speaks of a direct and personal, experiential knowledge or “knowing”.

Partially true. Man is made in such a way that he instinctively
knows there is a God. That is why he is "without excuse" for
not seeking and obeying God.

This is the knowledge Jesus came to reveal and restore.
This is the knowledge spoken of in Jer 31:34 and in John 17:3:

That is true... but ONLY for those "elected" to be "His sheep"
before the foundation of the world. Jesus did not come to
"reveal or restore" any others... read Mark 4:11-12 again,
Jesus explains clearly that some men were NEVER MEANT
to be "converted" or "forgiven". That is what the BIBLE says.
And that is what HISTORY confirms. We only pretend when we imagine anything else.

And as I see it I think we also need to recognize that if strict determinism/predestination is the order of the day then God is the direct, willful, and deliberate cause of every evil committed against, say, a child regardless of how atrocious. Can we really in good conscience follow that God?

NO... you mistake Adam for God.
Adam was made good, he had a personal relationship with God.
The Garden was paradise. He chose to follow Satan instead.


Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Psalms 41:9 prophesied about Judas’ betrayal.

“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me” (Psalms 41:9).

In other words, Jesus was a friend with Judas and he ate bread with him but he lifted up his heel against Jesus by His betrayal.

Before you attempt to suggest that Jesus is in view in verse 9...
you will need to explain why Jesus (according to your assumption)
would be saying the following in verse 4


Psa 41:4 I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul;
for I have sinned against thee.


Looks like you need to TEST your assumption and discern
the CONTEXT of the passage. I am pretty sure Jesus never
sinned against God (the Father)... nor did Jesus need to have
his soul healed.


Jim

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Before you attempt to suggest that Jesus is in view in verse 9...
you will need to explain why Jesus (according to your assumption)
would be saying the following in verse 4


Psa 41:4 I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul;
for I have sinned against thee.


Looks like you need to TEST your assumption and discern
the CONTEXT of the passage. I am pretty sure Jesus never
sinned against God (the Father)... nor did Jesus need to have
his soul healed.


Jim

If you know anything about Messianic prophecies, you would realize that they do not perfectly align with what is happening in the Old Testament. They are not an exact parallel in regards to the everything. We get snippets of information in the OT that alludes to the future events. My encouragement to you is to do an indepth study on Messianic prophecies that is unbiased and you will see what I am talking about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are actually many warnings against Eternal Security and or a sin and still be saved type belief.

Jeremiah 23:17 says,
“They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.”

Genesis 3:2-4 says,
“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.”

1 John 3:8 says, “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

1 John 3:10 says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

 

[5thKingdom]

If you know anything about Messianic prophecies, you would realize that they do not perfectly align with what is happening in the Old Testament. They are not an exact parallel in regards to the everything. We get snippets of information in the OT that alludes to the future events. My encouragement to you is to do an indepth study on Messianic prophecies that is unbiased and you will see what I am talking about.

You actually started your response with (and I quote)
"If you know anything about Messianic prophecies..."


And then you talk about "snippets".


In other words you cannot harmonize verse 4 with your
teaching that verse 9 is talking about Jesus and Judas.


It seems that, when you were challenged on your teaching
about Judas, you looked for a verse talking about a friend betraying
[v9] and you applied that verse to Jesus and Judas without even
considering the CONTEXT of the immediate passage, like verse 4.


Unless you are saying that verse 4 shows Jesus confessing
to being a sinner who needs His soul to be healed?


So... just so we are clear:
Do you STILL teach that verse 9 is speaking of Jesus and Judas?
And, if so, what "snippet" explains verse 4 showing Jesus
as a sinner who needs His soul healed?


Jim

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation.

(1) First, if God "chose" or "elected" us to be "His sheep" then we were saved BEFORE the foundation of the world
because God can never FAIL to do what He purposes...or do you teach that God Fails?

No, I don't teach that. But I DO teach that your posts are seriously in ERROR.

Your "if God chose us to be His sheep" isn't a first class condition, as you presume, but not even in the Bible. Or please provide any verse that says that God chooses who will be Jesus' sheep.

(2) Scripture contradicts your "theory" about being chosen
to be saved.

Well, that's the actual issue here. WHERE in Scripture is the teaching that election is to salvation?? I've been asking for verses yet no Calvinist can provide any.

Assuming you can understand that "chosen" and
"elected" have the SAME MEANING. (I know... that might be
too much for you to comprehend)

Your ad hominem reveals your character.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Jim

See? What did I tell you? The "in him" is a parenthesis. Could have been rendered, "which are in him".

And I've already shown exactly WHO the "us" refers to. v.19 tells us plainly.
"and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength"

So, EVERY time you come across "us" we KNOW that Paul is referring to believers. They are already saved, so v.4 CANNOT mean that God chooses who will be saved, or even who will believe.

v.4 teaches that God has chosen (elected) believers to be holy and blameless. That's the purpose of the election in v.4, and that is a purpose of service.

You're welcome.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"What verses tell us that people are unconditionally elected to salvation?"

Why do you think John 10:28 is about election?

The people he refers to are said to be guaranteed eternal life.

Yes, they are. Why? Not because of "election", but because Jesus GAVE them the gift of eternal life. iow, the point is that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Couldn't be any more clear.

That can only mean election.

This is pure presumption. The verse clearly means that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

The question YOU should be asking is WHEN does a person receive the gift? The answer is WHEN they believe in Christ for it.

John 5:24 and 7:47 and 1 John 5:11 and 13 all say that believers possess eternal life. That MEANS they have it WHEN they believe.

If not, the possibility would have to exist that any of those people might turn bad and/or renounce Christ and lose eternal life.

Another very poor presumption.

What verse says that "turning bad" or "apostasy" results in loss of eternal life?

Your problem is that you actually do see what the verse teaches, which is eternal security, and your biases won't allow you to accept that.

Eternal security is based solely on what Jesus does for the believer. By giving the believer the gift of eternal life, they shall never perish.

But to you, that's just a hard pill to swallow.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You actually started your response with (and I quote)
"If you know anything about Messianic prophecies..."


And then you talk about "snippets".


In other words you cannot harmonize verse 4 with your
teaching that verse 9 is talking about Jesus and Judas.


It seems that, when you were challenged on your teaching
about Judas, you looked for a verse talking about a friend betraying
[v9] and you applied that verse to Jesus and Judas without even
considering the CONTEXT of the immediate passage, like verse 4.


Unless you are saying that verse 4 shows Jesus confessing
to being a sinner who needs His soul to be healed?


So... just so we are clear:
Do you STILL teach that verse 9 is speaking of Jesus and Judas?
And, if so, what "snippet" explains verse 4 showing Jesus
as a sinner who needs His soul healed?


Jim

Again, do a study on Messianic prophecies. You will learn that they are not in the way that you suggest. Take for example Psalms 34:20.

“He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.” (Psalms 34:20).

This is a Messianic prophecy.

How so?

John 19:36 says,
“For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.”

If you were to go back and read Psalms 34:1, it says:

“{A Psalm of David, when he changed his behaviour before Abimelech; who drove him away, and he departed.}” (Psalms 34:1).

This is what this particular psalm is primarily about. Yet, there is a snippet of truth in this psalm about the Lord. It contains a nugget of truth that is a Messianic prophecy. Yet, the whole psalm is not messianic. The psalm as a whole deals with an event that took place in the OT.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation Is Only Given To Those Who Repent And Obey God:

Matthew 7:21 ~ “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

• Jesus said that the only people who will be saved and inherit the Kingdom of God will be those who do the will of his Father.
• Salvation will not be given to those who return to disobedience and do not live faithful obedient lives to God.

Isaiah 55:7 ~ “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”

• If repentance and forsaking sin are required to be saved are they not required to remain saved?
• God’s mercy is only for those who remain pure from sin.

Ezekiel 18:21 ~ “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

• Only those who turn from all their sins and stay turned can expect to live eternally and not experience the second death.

Hebrews 5:9 ~ “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.”

• Jesus is only the savior of people that presently obey him. If we turn from obedience then he would be the author of salvation for those who disobey him and this Word would be nullified.

Acts of the Apostles 5:32 ~ “And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”

• Only those who have the Holy Spirit belong to God [Romans 8:9] and only those who obey God and continue in obedience are given and will be able to keep his Holy Spirit.

Mark 11:25-26 ~ “And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

• Jesus said that it is an impossibility to be in a state where you are not forgiving others and yet you yourself are forgiven.
• This shows us that salvation is absolutely conditioned upon our present state of righteousness. We must have a heart of love and forgiveness or we cannot be saved regardless of any past experience we may have had.

Revelation 22:14 ~ “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

• Because of our sins we were barred from the tree of life and could therefore not experience eternal life.
• The final teachings of the Holy Scriptures in Revelation are that only those who keep Gods commandments will regain access to this tree of life and be saved from death!

Source:
Enjoy Truth
(Note: I do not agree with the author on everything. For example: I do not agree with the author's view about Solomon's salvation. For I believe Solomon was saved in the end. - See this thread here to learn more.).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ezekiel 33:13 ~ “When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

• Sadly the righteous Disciples of God who live and preach the truth are often told that they are trusting in their own righteousness. Thankfully we are here shown exactly what the scriptures mean by the phrase trusting in your own righteousness.
• According to the Bible, trusting in your own righteousness is believing that because of some righteous act you have done in the past you are now unable to lose your right standing with God. That because of a past experience you can now commit sin and not die. This is basically the teaching of eternal security and what it means to trust in your own righteousness.”

Source:
Enjoy Truth
(Note: Again, I agree with what the author says here; This does not mean I may agree with every statement or belief that he holds to).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We have many examples general and specific of people who were saved and yet lost their salvation and perished.

1 Corinthians 10:1-6 & 11 ~ “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

• Paul went to great lengths in this passage to prove that the people God destroyed in the Old Testament were in the same spiritual position as the church. He explains that these had been baptized into the body of Christ and ate the spiritual food of life and were themselves followers of Christ. These were born again people!
• Paul went to such great lengths to prove these people were saved because he wanted us to realize that the same thing that happened to these rebellious people can also happen to us!
• Multitudes of people were destroyed by God in the wilderness because of their sins after salvation.
• The admonition is to fear God and not to think that just because you are currently standing that you cannot fall. We must not lust after evil things because even though you were once saved God can now choose to destroy you with the wicked.

Romans 11:20-22 ~ “Because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

• Paul here refers to multitudes of Jews who were previously saved but ended up lost because when the message of Christ came they rejected him.
• These people were said to have been branches in the tree of salvation but were afterwards broken off that tree.
• The warning is that if God did not spare these saved people we also must fear that we will not be spared either unless we continue living holy lives. Otherwise we will be cut off from God and perish as they.

1 Timothy 1:19 ~ Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

• In the New Testament we have Hymenaeus and Alexander who Paul says made a shipwreck of their faith.
• These men must have had a salvation ship to begin with in order for that ship to be wrecked.
• These men were handed over to Satan in hopes that they would repent and be saved [1 Corinthians 5:5].

Source:
Enjoy Truth
(Note: Again, I agree with what the author says here; But that does not mean I agree with everythiing the author says).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation Is Only Given To Those Who Repent And Obey God:

Pay close attention to these verses about salvation:

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The words "salvation" and "eternal life" are essentially synonymous, since the Bible never says or even suggests that you can have one without the other. And that both are obtained the SAME WAY; through believing in Christ.

Matthew 7:21 ~ “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

• Jesus said that the only people who will be saved and inherit the Kingdom of God will be those who do the will of his Father.
• Salvation will not be given to those who return to disobedience and do not live faithful obedient lives to God.

This passage isn't even about how to obtain salvation. It's about the end result of those who think they can earn their way to heaven. There is NO mention of faith in Christ. in fact, the entire basis of their appeal for entering the kingdom is on what THEY DID.

They were obviously religious. But they weren't believers, ever. That's why Jesus said to them, "I NEVER knew you". Think about this for a sec. If any of them had EVER believed in Christ, Jesus would have given them eternal life. And on that basis, they would never perish - John 10:28.

Since He said that He NEVER knew them, it is obvious that they NEVER believed in Him.

Isaiah 55:7 ~ “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”

• If repentance and forsaking sin are required to be saved are they not required to remain saved?
• God’s mercy is only for those who remain pure from sin.

Ezekiel 18:21 ~ “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

• Only those who turn from all their sins and stay turned can expect to live eternally and not experience the second death.

Hebrews 5:9 ~ “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.”

• Jesus is only the savior of people that presently obey him. If we turn from obedience then he would be the author of salvation for those who disobey him and this Word would be nullified.

Acts of the Apostles 5:32 ~ “And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”

• Only those who have the Holy Spirit belong to God [Romans 8:9] and only those who obey God and continue in obedience are given and will be able to keep his Holy Spirit.

Mark 11:25-26 ~ “And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

• Jesus said that it is an impossibility to be in a state where you are not forgiving others and yet you yourself are forgiven.
• This shows us that salvation is absolutely conditioned upon our present state of righteousness. We must have a heart of love and forgiveness or we cannot be saved regardless of any past experience we may have had.

Revelation 22:14 ~ “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

• Because of our sins we were barred from the tree of life and could therefore not experience eternal life.
• The final teachings of the Holy Scriptures in Revelation are that only those who keep Gods commandments will regain access to this tree of life and be saved from death!

Source:
Enjoy Truth
(Note: I do not agree with the author on everything. For example: I do not agree with the author's view about Solomon's salvation. For I believe Solomon was saved in the end. - See this thread here to learn more.).

Given the failed example of Matt 7:21-23, I won't go thru the other 'examples'. One is enough to reveal the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We have many examples general and specific of people who were saved and yet lost their salvation and perished.

Actually, we don't. What you have provided is a total misunderstanding of Scripture.

When a person believes in Christ, they are given eternal life - John 5;24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13 say so.

And Jesus says recipient of eternal life (I give them eternal life) shall NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Some are confused in that they do not understand that eternal life is a person and not a magical wish granted to you by a genie.
For one, Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
Two, we need to abide in the Son in order to have life.
For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12).
Three, how can we have an assurance that we know the Son (in order to have eternal life)?
1 John 2:3 says, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”
Four, 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” Meaning, the truth that is not in them is Jesus (if they don't keep His commandments). For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). A person cannot be saved if they are not abiding in Christ (1 John 5:12). Keeping of God's commands is the proof in the pudding that Christ (Who is life & salvation) lives in them.

 

[Albion]

Yes, they are. Why? Not because of "election", but because Jesus GAVE them the gift of eternal life. iow, the point is that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Couldn't be any more clear.

If they've been given "eternal life," we call that election.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To all:

Some are confused in that they do not understand that eternal life is a person and not a magical wish granted to you by a genie.

Jesus said He gives eternal life, a gift according to Rom 6:23 to His sheep. Yes, there is a verse that says that Jesus Christ IS eternal life. It is also a gift. Which is NOT a person. It is possessed, according to John 5:24 and 6:47. Jesus cannot be possessed by a person.

For one, Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).

When Jesus said He gives eternal life, He is giving immortality to believers.

Two, we need to abide in the Son in order to have life.

No, you don't have any verses that say this.

For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12).

This verse doesn't say anything about "abiding". The concept of abiding is found in John 15 where Jesus taught the 11 disciples/apostles that in order to BEAR FRUIT (not get or remain saved) is to abide in Him. That is about fellowship, not salvation.

Three, how can we have an assurance that we know the Son (in order to have eternal life)?
1 John 2:3 says, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”

The assurance of the believer is found in the GUARANTEE in God's Word that those given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28.

Four, 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” Meaning, the truth that is not in them is Jesus (if they don't keep His commandments).

that is just your twist on what John wrote. He was calling out believers who aren't living the Christian life, calling them liars who are ignorant of the truth.

If you think all Christians have the truth in general you are naive. There are loads of ignorant believers.

Paul wrote 4 times in different epistles, "I don't want you ignorant, brethren".

For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). A person cannot be saved if they are not abiding in Christ (1 John 5:12).

1 John 5:12 doesn't say what you claim.