Once saved always saved. False?

[5thKingdom]

It's actually quite sad that anyone who claims to be a student of Scripture would even think that there are "unsaved Christians".

Christians are people following Christ. People calling Jesus their "Lord".
There are MANY unsaved Christians in the church but FEW real saints.
It is just too bad you refuse to accept this Biblical Truth... no matter
how many SCRIPTURES prove it.

Mat 7:21-23
Mat 20:16
Mat 22:14
Mat 25:11-13
Luke 13:23-30

When you accept the verses you LIKE but you REJECT or
intentionally IGNORE the verses you don't like (that contradict)
Then you are not following the Gospel of the Bible, instead, you are
designing your own personal gospel. Good luck with that.


Jim

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Though he was prophesying about end times, he had no idea
about the church age and Gentile involvement." Referring to future people does not equate to NAMING the "Church age". .

Sorry buddy... referring to GENTILES being included in the "Kingdom of God" is most definitely a prophecy of the
New Testament Kingdom (whether the writer understood the fulfillment or not).

You obviously missed my point. You are trying to nail a "name" to your kingdoms by who is being referred to.

BECAUSE that prophecy was NEVER fulfilled during the OT...
it was ONLY fulfilled in the NT.

Of course. But so what! It doesn't "name" a kingdom.

The QUESTION was whether the church age (Jews and Gentiles)
was prophesied in the OT... I gave you MANY examples of where
it was prophesied in the OT.

Only very ignorant people claim that the "church age" was prophesied in the OT.

NOW you want to "move the goalposts" (in order to save face)
and PRETEND the question was whether the writer of the prophecy
UNDERSTOOD the fulfillment.

You just keep missing all my points. I can't make it any more simple than I have already.

That is YOUR STRAWMAN... nothing more.

I think readers of this thread know where all the straw is.

I have warned you several times to NOT ASSUME Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand.

And your childish "warnings" are just laughable.

This is just (another) example
of how your limited understanding does NOT define Biblical Truth.
Jim

Grow up.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
It's actually quite sad that anyone who claims to be a student of Scripture would even think that there are "unsaved Christians".

Christians are people following Christ.

See there? You just PROVED your failure to understand what "Christian" means.

So, a challenge to you. Find me just one verse that defines "Christian" that way.

Rather, a Christian is one who has placed their full faith and trust in the work of Jesus Christ who died for them on the cross and saves them for trusting Him. Period.

People calling Jesus their "Lord".

No, many such people only think they are Christians. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 thought they would get into the kingdom on the basis of their works FOR Jesus, and they called Him Lord. But so what? What Jesus was speaking about involves the FUTURE day of judgment for unbelievers, at the Great White Throne. There won't be even 1 unbended knee at that judgment, and everyone will call Him Lord, because it will be very obvious to everyone there that He IS.

There are MANY unsaved Christians in the church but FEW real saints.

Your views are simply ignorant of Scripture. There will be many unsaved people who think they ARE Christians because of their lifestyle of morality. They don't understand the gospel message any more than the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

It is just too bad you refuse to accept this Biblical Truth... no matter
how many SCRIPTURES prove it.

The Scriptures prove what I believe and REFUTE what you believe.

When you accept the verses you LIKE but you REJECT or
intentionally IGNORE the verses you don't like (that contradict)

Hilarious. I haven't found ANY verses that contradict my views. But I have found many verses that do contradict your views.

Then you are not following the Gospel of the Bible, instead, you are
designing your own personal gospel. Good luck with that.

Please don't transfer your own errors on to me.

You just proved clearly in your post that you do NOT understand the Gospel of the Bible, by your definition of "Christian" to be one who "follows Christ". That's beyond vague and useless as a definition.

You are the one who makes up stuff.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If, however, we take that verse by James in a super-literal way, it would mean not that works count but that they are ALL that matters.

I don't know a single Christian--and certainly not any denomination--who agrees with that proposition.

Since that is NOT what James means (and his epistle takes pains to explain why such a POV is wrong)...,

What, then, can this mean?

It means that we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace, and then works of faith (Which is a part of our faith after we are saved by God's grace) is then the next step or stage in the salvation process just as Glorification is another part in the salvation process.

We are saved by:

#1. The Provisional Atonement (What Christ did for us with His death, burial, and resurrection).
#2. Justification (Being saved by God's grace & His atoning work by accepting Him and His mercy).
#3. Sanctification (Living holy by God's power and a reflection of showing our faith).
#4. Glorification (The Lord taking us home).

Here is a more detailed breakdown of these four with Scripture.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement

 

[fhansen]

Im confused about salvation. What is the truth about salvation. What do we do? Ive researched lately and many are coming out saying OSAS is an end times heresy that will lead many to fall away. That only if u endure to the end u r saved. So what is true salvation how can someone know they are going to have it? theres always that what if im weak what if i dont endure what if im doing a certain sin,etc etc. im just really confused about this and really worried about where i stand with God

The bible speaks of salvation in three tenses: past, present, and future. We work out our salvation. We cannot predict whether or not we'll persevere, which is why we're admonished to persevere. In any case, God, alone, knows with absolute 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.

 

[5thKingdom]

FreeGrace 2 said:
"Though he was prophesying about end times, he had no idea
about the church age and Gentile involvement.

--------------------

The ONLY issue was whether or not the Old Testament prophesied
about the church age.

I gave you several (many) examples of Old Testament prophecies
talking about the salvation of the Gentiles.

There was no issue about those prophecies NAMING a "church age"....
that is just your confusion talking.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

The bible speaks of salvation in three tenses: past, present, and future. We work out our salvation. We cannot predict whether or not we'll persevere, which is why we're admonished to persevere. In any case, God, alone, knows with absolute 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.

While I do not want to disagree with anything you said above,
I would like to expand the question a little with regard to the
perseverance of the saints.

While there are several ways to ask this question, let me just ask,
is it possible for anyone that God elected to eternal life to NOT
receive what God intended? Can God FAIL in His purpose?

Jim

.

 

[5thKingdom]

This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);

(1) So you are saying that Christ SUFFERED and PAID for the sins
of people who were NEVER MEANT to be saved... since the Bible
clearly teaches that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved?


(2) So you are saying that Christ SUFFERED and PAID for the sins
of people going to hell (to pay for their sins)? Please show me
where in the Bible it says that any sin must be paid TWICE.


(3) So you are saying that Christ SUFFERED and PAID for all sins
as a "contingency payment" or some sort of "promissory note"
for those who decide to follow Him?


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world

So, let's talk about the Atonement.


(1) Can we agree for Christ to PAY for any sin He must SUFFER
the equivalent to what the sinner would have to SUFFER if he
did NOT have a Savior?

And that equivalency would be an eternity in hell?
So the ONLY reason Jesus could PAY for any single sin was
because He never ceased to be God?

Can we agree on that?
And if not, what SCRIPTURE contradicts this doctrine?


(2) So if an elect person dies very young, having only committed
100 sins in his life. Would that mean that Christ had to SUFFER for
each of those sins? He could not have PAID for that person's sins
if He only SUFFERED for 99 sins... and Christ certainly would never
SUFFER for MORE SINS than that person committed.

Can we agree on that?
And if not, what SCRIPTURE contradicts this doctrine?


(3) So if an old man like me dies, having committed 100,000 sins,
Christ would have to SUFFER for all of those sins to PAY for me.
He could not pay for LESS sins than I committed... and He would
certainly not pay for MORE sins than I committed.

Can we agree on that?
And if not, what SCRIPTURE contradicts this doctrine?


(4) I often hear about the Atonement as an abstract concept.
As if Christ SUFFERED for some unknown aggregate amount of sin.
While every hair on our (elect) head is numbered... for some reason
the amount of sins that must be paid cannot be numbered. It's as
if the Atonement was some "blanket" over all sins ever committed.
Which brings me to my final question...


What about the people who were NEVER MEANT to be saved?
Did Christ SUFFER to pay for the sins of all the people HE KNEW
(and the Father Knew) would never be saved - because they were NEVER MEANT (and I quote) "to be forgiven"?


There is no doubt the Bible teaches that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be forgiven. There is no doubt that God
CREATED some men to be "vessels of destruction"... did
Christ SUFFER for the sins of men CREATED for destruction?
And if so, what SCRIPTURE would establish such a doctrine?


Jim

 

[fhansen]

While I do not want to disagree with anything you said above,
I would like to expand the question a little with regard to the
perseverance of the saints.

While there are several ways to ask this question, let me just ask,
is it possible for anyone that God elected to eternal life to NOT
receive what God intended? Can God FAIL in His purpose?

Jim

.

Well, I assume you already know the alternative arguments, that God's election isn't strict determinism but rather, by His sovereign will, incorporates man's choices into the equation, with more expected of those given more. He deems this right and good, according to His wisdom. Obviously, from Eden on man must decide, which is why believers are admonished, warned, exhorted, and encouraged even as grace is required to aid him in this endeavor to choose good over evil, life over death, to strive, to be vigilant, to persevere, to work out our salvation, to make our calling and election sure, to remain in Christ, to live by the Spirit and not the flesh, to refrain from sin, to pray that God's will be done on earth, to wash one's robes, to be perfect, to be holy, to obey the commandments, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, to love, with not so great consequences for those who fail to do so. Not much need for such instruction if one's salvation is guaranteed.

 

[5thKingdom]

Well, I assume you already know the alternative arguments, that God's election isn't strict determinism but rather, by His sovereign will, incorporates man's choices into the equation, with more expected of those given more.

Of course I am aware of the gospel of synergism, but I wanted
to get more specific by questioning whether God's "election" of
certain people to become "His Sheep" can ever result in SOME
of those people never being regenerated?


I do not find Biblical support for ANYONE God has "elected"
to become "His sheep" to NEVER be regenerated.... is there
Scripture for such a doctrine?


To be clear, I understand, and hope you understand, that there
is a difference between groups and individuals. For example,
I can find verses that say Israel (as a nation) will be saved...
and other verses that some (individual Jews) are NOT saved.


Likewise, I find some verses saying "the church" will be saved
(meaning all the "wheat/sheep" in the church) but other verses
saying all of the "tares/goats" in the church are destined to hell.


So... is there Biblical support for any INDIVIDUAL that God "elects"
to become "His Sheep"... to NEVER be regenerated?
What chapter/verse?

Obviously, from Eden on man must decide,

I don't know WHY you say this is "obvious".
I think it's "obvious" to all that Adam and Eve had true "free will"
but there is much controversy about the will of man after the fall.


I see verses saying all (natural) men are spiritually DEAD.
I see verses saying NO (natural) MAN will seek after God.
I see verses saying NO (natural) MAN can come to Christ
unless the Father first "draws" them... and then, ALL MEN
the Father gives "shall come", and Christ loses NONE of them.


Which is the essence of this question...
Does Christ lose NONE of "His sheep"? Or does He lose SOME?
I assume NONE means NONE... but does it really mean SOME?
Is it BIBLICAL that SOME of "His sheep" are never regenerated?
What chapter/verse?

which is why believers are admonished, warned, exhorted, and encouraged even as grace is required to aid him in this endeavor to choose good over evil, life over death, to strive, to be vigilant, to persevere, to work out our salvation, to make our calling and election sure, to remain in Christ, to live by the Spirit and not the flesh, to refrain from sin, to pray that God's will be done on earth, to wash one's robes, to be perfect, to be holy, to obey the commandments, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, to love, with not so great consequences for those who fail to do so. Not much need for such instruction if one's salvation is guaranteed.

But, your PREMISE (above) is ONLY on those already regenerated.
You begin your explanation with "which is why BELIEVERS...."
I am aware of the verses encouraging believers to live in the
Spirit - and how God corrects those who do not (ask Jonah).


And I am aware that some believers produce "fruit" thirty-fold
and others sixty-fold and some one hundred-fold.
But here was my original question:


While there are several ways to ask this question, let me just ask,
is it possible for anyone that God elected to eternal life to NOT
receive what God intended? Can God FAIL in His purpose?


So, it may be my fault for not wording the question carefully.
I did not mean to discuss whether once saved, always saved.
I meant can anyone elected to be "His Sheep" not be regenerated?


I wonder if there is any Biblical support teaching that someone
God has elected before the foundation of the world to become
one of "His Sheep"... would NEVER be regenerated?


Will Christ lose NONE of "His sheep"... or SOME of them?


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Not much need for such instruction if one's salvation is guaranteed.

First, I apologize for not being more careful in my question
on the last post.


Please let me just follow-up from a different perspective.
One which I suspect will be more favorable to your theology.


Let's assume the synergistic perspective is correct and God
only "elects" people to become "His Sheep" based on His
foreknowledge that they would WANT to become saved.


Can we then say that all God "elected" to become "His Sheep"
will be regenerated? And He will lose NONE of "His Sheep"?


Jim

 

[fhansen]

Of course I am aware of the gospel of synergism, but I wanted
to get more specific by questioning whether God's "election" of
certain people to become "His Sheep" can ever result in SOME
of those people never being regenerated?


I do not find Biblical support for ANYONE God has "elected"
to become "His sheep" to NEVER be regenerated.... is there
Scripture for such a doctrine?


To be clear, I understand, and hope you understand, that there
is a difference between groups and individuals. For example,
I can find verses that say Israel (as a nation) will be saved...
and other verses that some (individual Jews) are NOT saved.


Likewise, I find some verses saying "the church" will be saved
(meaning all the "wheat/sheep" in the church) but other verses
saying all of the "tares/goats" in the church are destined to hell.


So... is there Biblical support for any INDIVIDUAL that God "elects"
to become "His Sheep"... to NEVER be regenerated?
What chapter/verse?





I don't know WHY you say this is "obvious".
I think it's "obvious" to all that Adam and Eve had true "free will"
but there is much controversy about the will of man after the fall.


I see verses saying all (natural) men are spiritually DEAD.
I see verses saying NO (natural) MAN will seek after God.
I see verses saying NO (natural) MAN can come to Christ
unless the Father first "draws" them... and then, ALL MEN
the Father gives "shall come", and Christ loses NONE of them.


Which is the essence of this question...
Does Christ lose NONE of "His sheep"? Or does He lose SOME?
I assume NONE means NONE... but does it really mean SOME?
Is it BIBLICAL that SOME of "His sheep" are never regenerated?
What chapter/verse?





But, your PREMISE (above) is ONLY on those already regenerated.
You begin your explanation with "which is why BELIEVERS...."
I am aware of the verses encouraging believers to live in the
Spirit - and how God corrects those who do not (ask Jonah).


And I am aware that some believers produce "fruit" thirty-fold
and others sixty-fold and some one hundred-fold.
But here was my original question:


While there are several ways to ask this question, let me just ask,
is it possible for anyone that God elected to eternal life to NOT
receive what God intended? Can God FAIL in His purpose?


So, it may be my fault for not wording the question carefully.
I did not mean to discuss whether once saved, always saved.
I meant can anyone elected to be "His Sheep" not be regenerated?


I wonder if there is any Biblical support teaching that someone
God has elected before the foundation of the world to become
one of "His Sheep"... would NEVER be regenerated?


Will Christ lose NONE of "His sheep"... or SOME of them?


Jim

The elect are....the elect, so of course they will be saved. We just cannot know with absolute, perfect certainty who they are. And Scripture tells us that there will be surprises.

 

[fhansen]

First, I apologize for not being more careful in my question
on the last post.


Please let me just follow-up from a different perspective.
One which I suspect will be more favorable to your theology.


Let's assume the synergistic perspective is correct and God
only "elects" people to become "His Sheep" based on His
foreknowledge that they would WANT to become saved.


Can we then say that all God "elected" to become "His Sheep"
will be regenerated? And He will lose NONE of "His Sheep"?


Jim

Yes

 

[5thKingdom]

(For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

This is just so typical of false doctrines... just ignore the CONTEXT.
Supposedly, Romans 5:6-8 teaches "provisional atonement" for all
the world. But a cursory examination of the passage shows that the
CONTEXT is LIMITED to only the elect. It takes less than 2 minutes
to show this "proof text" teaches the OPPOSITE of what is supposed.

This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our [the elect] hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. [the elect] 6 For when we [the elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. [the elect] 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, [the elect] in that, while we [the elect] were yet sinners, Christ died for us.[the elect] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we [the elect] shall be saved from wrath through him.10 For if, when we [the elect] were enemies, we [the elect] were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we [the elect] shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we [the elect] also joy in God through our [the elect] Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we [the elect] have now received the atonement.

This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);

Not even close. The CONTEXT of WHO is included in the passage
is shown fourteen (14) times and EVERY TIME it is talking about
the Elect (who have been given the Holy Spirit).


It is absolutely AMAZING that anyone would suggest this passage
is a "proof text" for anything other than LIMITED ATONEMENT
of the "elect" (those given the Holy Spirit).


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

(For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

This is just so typical of false doctrines... just ignore the CONTEXT.
Supposedly, Romans 5:6-8 teaches "provisional atonement" for all
the world. But a cursory examination of the passage shows that the
CONTEXT is LIMITED to only the elect. It takes less than 2 minutes
to show this "proof text" teaches the OPPOSITE of what is supposed.

This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any [elect] man be in Christ, he [the elect]
is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us
[the elect] to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us [the elect] the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world [elect Jew and Gentile] unto himself, not imputing their [the elect] trespasses unto them [the elect]; and hath committed unto us [the elect] the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we [the elect] are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us [the elect]: we [the elect] pray you in Christ's stead, be ye [elect] reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, [the elect] who knew no sin; that we [the elect]
might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it);

Not even close. The CONTEXT of WHO is included in the passage
is shown fourteen (14) times and EVERY TIME it is talking about
the Elect (who are "in Christ" and "reconciled").


[v17] Who is "in Christ"? The elect
[v17] Who is a "new creature"? The elect
[v18] Who is reconciled with God? The elect
[v18] Who has the ministry of reconciliation? The elect
[v19] Where is this reconciliation? The world = Jew and Gentile
[v19] Who's sins are not imputed? The elect
[v19] Who has the word of reconciliation? The elect
[v20] Who are the ambassadors for Christ? The elect
[v20] Who prays for men to be reconciled? The elect
[v21] Who is Christ sin for? The elect
[v21] Who is made righteous in Him? The elect


It is absolutely AMAZING that anyone would suggest this passage
is a "proof text" for anything other than LIMITED ATONEMENT
of the "elect". We cannot hope to understand the MEANING of
any passage when we cannot discern the CONTEXT.


Jim
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There was no issue about those prophecies NAMING a "church age".... that is just your confusion talking.
Jim

Then WHY have you repeatedlhy claimed that Jesus "named" kingdoms?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is just so typical of false doctrines... just ignore the CONTEXT.
Supposedly, Romans 5:6-8 teaches "provisional atonement" for all
the world. But a cursory examination of the passage shows that the
CONTEXT is LIMITED to only the elect. It takes less than 2 minutes
to show this "proof text" teaches the OPPOSITE of what is supposed.

I do not have time to address all your misinterpretations in Scripture, but this one is easy.

You basically are saying that Romans 5:6-8 is dealing with only the Calvinistic limited saved elect. However, the context of Romans 5:6-8 shows that the gift came upon ALL MEN.

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” (Romans 5:18).


Side Note:

Oh, and by the way. Israel was God's elected or chosen nation. That does not mean all of Israel was saved throughout time. So you are reading your own Calvinistic biases into the word “elect” instead of deriving the meaning of that word based on what the Bible says. I mean, did you even do a study on the word “elect” before without any biased previous conceived ideas before?

 

[FreeGrace2]

5thKingdom said: ↑
This is just so typical of false doctrines... just ignore the CONTEXT.
Supposedly, Romans 5:6-8 teaches "provisional atonement" for all
the world. But a cursory examination of the passage shows that the
CONTEXT is LIMITED to only the elect. It takes less than 2 minutes
to show this "proof text" teaches the OPPOSITE of what is supposed.

I do not have time to address all your misinterpretations in Scripture, but this one is easy.

You basically are saying that Romans 5:6-8 is dealing with only the Calvinistic limited saved elect. However, the context of Romans 5:6-8 shows that the gift came upon ALL MEN.

As does 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, and 1 Tim 2:3-6.

Side Note:

Oh, and by the way. Israel was God's elected or chosen nation. That does not mean all of Israel was saved throughout time. So you are reading your own Calvinistic biases into the word “elect” instead of deriving the meaning of that word based on what the Bible says. I mean, did you even do a study on the word “elect” before without any biased previous conceived ideas before?

Great suggestion!! Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation. It's about service, as ALL the examples of those identified as "elect" show quite easily.

Great post!

 

[Albion]

Great suggestion!! Those who do study the word "elect" in Scripture will discover that there are no verses that teach that anyone is saved through election, and that election isn't even about salvation. It's about service, as ALL the examples of those identified as "elect" show quite easily.

You can say that about the use of the term, the Elect, but not of the verses that describe the Elect or Eternal Security without using the terminology we today use.