Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[FreeGrace2]

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Fallacious response. One is completely secure in the Lord. But one is not secure in a sinful lifestyle.

Show me a scripture where one has total security in a lifestyle of sin and disobedience.

This is a phony challenge. The security is in the FACT that when one believes they are SEALED in the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. I guess that just doesn't mean anything to the insecurity crowd. I have no idea why.

Please explain what each of these verses mean, if not eternal security:

Eph 1:13-14 - 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Pretty clear; even those who grieve the Holy Spirit HAVE BEEN SEALED for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
What do you suppose "is to come" refers to here?

2 Cor 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Again, what does "guaranteeing what is to come" refer to here? And why did God give us the Holy as a deposit?

I look forward to your explanation of these verses to show how they do not speak of eternal security. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Repent AND believe.

To obey the Gospel is to repent.

Repent means to turn to God, that you may be forgiven of your sins and granted eternal life.

Believe mean trust and commit, as well as obey.

Believe without obedience is thd same as faith without the work of obedience...

That's why Jesus said repent and believe the Gospel.

The obedience part of being saved by faith is repent.

Your doctrine is lacking... RepentJLB

No, what is lacking is spiritual discernment, and not on my part.

No one from the insecurity camp has YET to provide any verse that teaches that ceasing to believe means loss of salvation. That is merely a fallacious assumption.

And there are verses that tell us that God has given us His Holy Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

 

[outsidethecamp]

So, I'll ask again, where does Scripture teach that eternal life can be revoked/removed/lost, our new birth can be undoned?


Very much so. Yet, none of the things listed come close to saying that any part of salvation can be undone.

Why do you ignore hebrews 6?

 

[AVBunyan]

Hello, sorry you have too many errors to fully expound on here
but start with one verse

Well friend show me where I am wrong - I took the time to expound your error.
Are you saying too many errors or are you saying, "I don't have clue what you are talking about?!?!?!?"

Why not spend some time with Paul - he was given thedoctrine for us today. Show me from Paul where a saved, redeemed, sealed, seated, justified, glorified, sanctified saint in the body of Christ can lose it.

Thank ye kindly
God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Given ALL the changes that God performs for the one who has believed, and the fact that Scripture does NOT ever suggest or indicate that God undoes any of those changes.

2. If someone can show from Scripture that God has or will undo all the changes that occur when one believes, I will be convinced. Otherwise, I won't be.

1. Amen and amen

2.Oh, I like this. Also FreeGrace2 I'd like to see how the saint, in his own power, can undo what a might God asalready done.

The reason these folks will not answer this is because the average saint today has no heavenly idea what heppened to them doctrinally when they got saved.

God bless

 

[Marvin Knox]

1. Amen and amen

2.Oh, I like this. Also FreeGrace2 I'd like to see how the saint, in his own power, can undo what a might God asalready done.

The reason these folks will not answer this is because the average saint today has no heavenly idea what heppened to them doctrinally when they got saved.

God bless

That's exactly the problem here.

Some folks see it as a trial salvation where God see's how well we hold up.

The truth is that our nature and our position in relationship to God for the rest of eternity becomes the very nature and position of the risen and reigning Christ.

That happens when we believe - not after a trial run to see if we can make the grade.

This thread has shown that many in this forum (probably good Christians for the most part) do not understand the basic principles of salvation.

No one teaching eternal security, that I know of, teaches that a believer should or can live a weak and sinful life after being saved. In point of fact, quite the opposite is true of the teachers of eternal security that I know of.

The idea that people will teach or live a sinful life if they believe in eternal security is a red herring of the highest order IMO.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Amen and amen

2.Oh, I like this. Also FreeGrace2 I'd like to see how the saint, in his own power, can undo what a might God asalready done.

The reason these folks will not answer this is because the average saint today has no heavenly idea what heppened to them doctrinally when they got saved.

God bless

Does anybody here rightly divide the word of truth?

 

[Albion]

Now, that's an amazing statement, given the answer of Paul to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be SAVED. Acts 16:30

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

Either Paul lied, or your view is dead wrong.

Or you cannot appreciate the fact (as so many cannot) that words often have a variety of meanings or shadings of meaning. "Believe" means to give one's assent to a proposition. Faith is having a relationship with God. You don't have that relationship in the absence of believing in him, of course, but that doesn't make mere intellectual assent into Saving Faith. This is not so hard to understand, but I see that "outsidethecamp" didn't follow it either, so don't feel alone.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Some folks see it as a trial salvation where God see's how well we hold up.

2. This thread has shown that many in this forum (probably good Christians for the most part) do not understand the basic principles of salvation.

3. The idea that people will teach or live a sinful life if they believe in eternal security is a red herring of the highest order IMO.

1. Amen - most folks today think salvation is just a decision to follow God, or a committment they make to God, etc.

2. Amen, amen, amen for in the last days... 2Ti 4:3, For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;

3. Thanks for bringing this point out - this really does bug me. I've been saved going on 35 years (Yes, I'm an old dog!) now and I can't count the times when people have said, "You just believe you can live anyway you want and still be saved!" They got that right! I can - I can do ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING I want and I'm still secure in Christ. My salvation did not come abouit by me doing something or quitting things to get saved. And again, Yes, I can do anything I want, no matter how wicked but you know what, now that I've been regenerated I don't want to do those things anymore. My flesh does but the new man doesn't.
Rom. 6:1 2 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Also after looking at this issue I find the saint who understands grace has less problems with sin than the one who thinks he can lose it!

Thanks Marvin
God bless

 

[MikeEnders]

Lol. Ok, well allow me to explain. You can be justified but still left in sin, if you persist in willful sin and persist in unbelief toward God in relying on his righteousness. This is quite clear from the scriptures and from experience.

No it isn't. NT CLEARLY teaches salvation INCLUDES salvation from sin. Yes a believer can get caught in a sin but it won't go on forever. He'll repent and fall down and repent and fall down - not just live as some claim is fine and dandy like he never got saved. Sure believers can sin and will sin - you can see that in the NT but you don't have a single example of a believer in the NT who being called upon to repent and never does being assured of his salvation.

The scriptures in 1 John have to do with promises, just in case you're thinking of bringing those in .

Tells me all I want to know that you have to fear me bringing scriptures in. An unbiased person seeing "that which is born of God" knows its talking about being born of God. I think there's a part of you that does too and thats a good thing. Now you just need to think about it more


[qoute]So sanctification has nothing to do with work and ministry? Sin does not affect our work and ministry? What's interesting is that in verse 16 Paul immediately speaks of us being a temple of the Holy Spirit. [/quote]

the passage clear as day is talking about works and ministries we do for Christ. I may miss an opportunity to minister or I may not minister from time to time with the right attitude thats not living in sin and we both know it.

As an aside - given that it's been hundreds of years that this conversation goes on and on and on, it's time for us all to be a little more humble and find a way to resolve the issue for the future - find a way in which both the warnings and the scriptures that clearly speak of security can be put together. This way would surely be the most faithful to scripture.

That would be a good thing but i don't think its going to happen when people really don't care what the Bible teaches. I used to be a saved and lost guy myself . I came to security of the believer because there are passages that are undeniable and rather than choosing a side and pitting passage against passage i knew they had to be taken together and the only conclusion was security of the believer. Here's the thing though - quite a number of those same passages I became aware of also taught just as clearly that believers are forever changed so they can't just live like they never met Christ.

I understand where the saved and lost people are coming from when I read and hear people with doctrines that make salvation not a salvation from being a sinner but a gospel where people stay sinners. Its an abominable doctrine that makes salvation ineffective to do what it is supposed to do - free us from a life of sin. My message is security not only doesn't have to mean those people with their abominable doctrine are right but it in fact means they are wrong and very wrong

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

You can't have faith and not have works. Works are a product of faith, they are an evidence thereof- what measure of faith do you have if you have no works?

That's the thing commonly misunderstood about 'faith alone'. Faith alone doesn't imply what some think- that a person without works will receive salvation.
The fact is that works are not something those in faith have to worry about, because they come with faith itself.

Catholicism has always held to 'faith and works'. Well, given the above, what is the real difference between 'faith alone' and 'faith and works'? If faith breathes works, than why even make a dichotomy?

Well, it's because 'faith and works' and 'faith alone' don't actually have a whole lot to do with faith or works, they are a part of bigger theologies to necessitate a range of things pertaining to Catholic and Protestant doctrine, especially along the lines of merits as it pertains to predestination and free will.

 

[Albion]

Catholicism has always held to 'faith and works'. Well, given the above, what is the real difference between 'faith alone' and 'faith and works'? If faith breathes works, than why even make a dichotomy?

The Faith part isn't different, but the idea that you then have to earn your admission to heaven and can lose it at any time after conversion is a really big deal...and difference.

 

[MikeEnders]

Do you believe in the doctrine of entire sanctification?

I've stated what I believe several times. Its dreadfully simple. I believe the Bible and the Bible says this

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."
1 John 3:9

and this

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
1 john 5:18

No one has even attempted in 10+ pages to deal with any of those texts

Those who have mentioned it try to brush it aside , claim the passage isn't saying what even a ten year old can tell you its saying, try to preach pontificate over it to try and make it go away and even try to tell me I am being unscriptural for taking scripture the way it is written

Why do I believe in eternal security? because all the passages that support it are unambiguous stated straight clear and obvious while those who claim otherwise THINK this or that passage is talking about Christians or use assumptions and faulty reasoning. For the same reason I hold that salvation is from a life of living just like a sinner.

its CLEAR. Its unambiguous what these passages say - truly accepting Christ changes you forever and though you can wander into sin and even occasionally get stuck there sometimes the power of being born again (God's spirit) always drives you out of it not leaves you stuck in it till you die.

If you are stuck and never ever get out to stop your sinning its because you were never born again

 

[Marvin Knox]

Also after looking at this issue I find the saint who understands grace has less problems with sin than the one who thinks he can lose it!

I'm living proof that what you say here is true.

I was born again, believed on, received Him, trusted Him, rested in Him - you know the whole real gospel enchilada - when I was in my teens. I really was saved, committed, made Jesus the Lord of my life and all the rest of the things we talk about. I was as saved as saved can be.

But there was no one to disciple me and I fell into false doctrine. That false doctrine was that I had to overcome certain sins in order to stay saved. No one actually told me that in so many words. But it was assumed that that was Christianity. My understanding was much like many of the folks here in the forum.

I was a lusty young rascal and failed miserably on pretty much a daily basis - or so it seemed. I repented each time and did well for a while only to fail again and again.

I held the faith as I understood it for a year or two. After a while I came to the conclusion that I simply could not stay faithful to the Lord. I cried out to Him daily and my Christian life was miserable.

I remember thinking that I simply could not and would not live this way the rest of my life. I "consciously" walked away from Christianity thinking that if this was what following God was all about I didn't want any more of it.

I was away (became eventually agnostic I suppose we could say) until about my 30th birthday.

Through various means, the Lord brought me back to belief in the Bible's message and I made Him Lord (as we say) once again.

My very first task was to find out exactly how I got saved and how I stay saved according to a good systematic study of doctrine.

I came to understand that my original belief about security was dead wrong. I was to work with Him on sanctification not to get or stay saved but because I was eternally saved. That made all the difference.

I will be 70 very soon and I have never been tempted to give up the faith or live for myself or the devil at any time because I am so thankful to my Savior for my eternal salvation.

I have sinned many times (very consciously at times). I have been hot at times and lukewarm at times. But I would not dream of leaving a God who would die for me the way He did and secure my eternal destiny in Himself.

I've lived for Him, as we say, for around 4 decades now since He wooed me back to Himself.

Don't let anyone tell you that teaching eternal security leads to sin.

That's a lie.

In fact the exact opposite is true.

I may draw some flack for saying this. But it won't be the first time.

Many here think that they are doing the work of the God by undermining the teaching of eternal security.

But in my opinion they are unwittingly doing the work of God's enemy.

 

[Butch5]

ROFL......this has to be one of the world's worst collection of armchair theologians and Bible "students" ever assembled. I show him a passage that says a born again person cannot continue living a life of sin and he claims I am violating scripture by quoting from it.

Well its the internets folks so it takes all kinds. Totally bored now with this level of pontification over scripture. Its like open mike Sunday morning where people walk off the street and preach whatever they want not what god's word says.

I have nothing to lose either position but i say this to both sides. You all suck at rightly dividing the word of God. You don't look to it for what it says you try to back ideas that originate out of your own head.

Frankly at this point I think I see more with those who don't hold to security (even though I do). At least they don't try this putrid heresy from the pit of hell that salvation isn't salvation from living bound in sin but just a get out of hell meal ticket. Jesus came to save us from sin. Thats the Gospel. - not some perversion of the word grace

"only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
Galations 1:8

We've had the fallacies of the ad hominem, avoiding the issue, equivocation, and the Red herring. You're not really in a position to chastise others.

 

[Butch5]

I've stated what I believe several times. Its dreadfully simple. I believe the Bible and the Bible says this

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."
1 John 3:9

and this

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
1 john 5:18

No one has even attempted in 10+ pages to deal with any of those texts

"The Bible says this" is the fallacy of reification. The Bible can't speak it must be read and interpreted. It is interpreted through one's world view. That why Christians can all read the same passage and come away with a different understanding. You keep challenging people with these two passages but won't elaborate on how you understand them. You says you believe what the Bible says, but the Bible doesn't say anything. The real case is you believe what you think the Bible means. The Bible can't tell you if you are misunderstanding a passage. So, the passages are filtered through your understanding. That understanding could be right or it could be wrong. But, the Bible doesn't say anything.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Please show me the scripture where the believer is sealed forever.
2. As long as you continue to trust steadfast unto the end, then you will be saved...
3. some will take the mark and worship the beast.JLB

1. Eph 4:30, And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption
2. Then you believe in a pure works salvation - where is Christ in your plan?
3. I won't - the church is in the body of Christ and will not go thru the tribulation - you might - I won't.

 

[JLB777]

Then you believe in a pure works salvation - where is Christ in your plan?

We are saved by Grace through faith in Christ.

Take faith out of the equation and there is no promise of salvation.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

You must repent and believe, not just believe, for even the demons believe and they fear and tremble...

3. I won't - the church is in the body of Christ and will not go thru the tribulation - you might - I won't.

Sorry bro, you have been fed some bad doctrine. No such thing as a pre-trib rapture.

I have noticed that those who believe the lie of the pre-trib rapture, also seem to believe the false doctrine of OSAS.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


The Resurrection and Rapture are One event.


Now it's up to you to prove from the scriptures that the resurrection comes before the great tribulation.


JLB

 

[sparow]

Now, that's an amazing statement, given the answer of Paul to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be SAVED. Acts 16:30

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

Either Paul lied, or your view is dead wrong.

It is possible to lie even when one tells the truth. The problem I see here is more to do with semantics; this statement does not tell a person how to be saved unless that person is able to extrapolate “believe on” to the whole word of God. If the jailer was a Jew then the advice should have been “make the way straight” and Jesus’ teaching would have been helpful in doing that.


The statement seems to be too abstract to be useful unless preaching to the converted. And Jesus’ teaching requires a foreknowledge of scripture; if one reads only the Gospels then one will have knowledge of the correction to what the Jews had wrong but no knowledge of what they had right.

 

[MikeEnders]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

NO doubt about it. this would be a VERY compelling passage and I would not believe in Eternal security if what people said about it was true. The problem is that its not. Lets face it. the passage nowhere says saved, born again or believers. It uses other words and the strength of weakness of this passage to teach saved and lost really comes down to the words it uses

If its true that a person once enlightened must be referring to a believer then you have me. This would be a knock out verse and not admitting it would be ducking and twisting form God's word.however if the words are used in other situations and circumstances then sorry its not the knockout blow.

Many words over the hundreds of years of Christianity have taken on a spiritual meaning that the words in Roman culture just didn't have before the church. The Greek words all were a part of a secular unsaved culture before Christ came. Taking a look at enlightened it simple means to have a light shun on you. The real problem you have with that word is that john chapter one uses the EXACT same word

"He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;"
John 1:9

There the passage uses enlightened to describe wChrist shine a light on whole world. That makes the claim that Hebrews 6 using the word enlightened must mean that he is talking about Christians entirely wrong.

The only word left that even vaguely would imply believers is "partakers of the Holy Spirit". I am a little pressed to do something so I will get to that in another post but surprisingly to some if you do a search for the word partake it is used in a wide manner of ways and the phrase partakers of the Holy spirit isn't even a used phase anywhere else to refer to believers.

As an example revelations refers to partakingin other people's sin by just being in close proximity to them when judement is about to fall - s partake can simply mean to experience or be connected to something - which all the first century believer Hebrews is talkign to we know had saved or unsaved