Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Rejecting Him as a saved, born again, regenerated, justified person does NOT result in loss of salvation.

There are no verses that teach such a thing."

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Again, falling away refers to loss of faith or believing, not loss of salvation. No verse teaches that. Also, this passage doesn't say anything about loss of salvation, but rather, those who fall away from the faith won't be "renewed again unto repentance". iow, by their leaving the faith, they aren't going to repent.

 

[Jan001]

I don't understand the continued back and forth of this. It sounds like one is trying to justify working for salvation.

There are two parts to salvation.

First, Jesus gives us salvation as His gift to us when we repent and believe and are baptized/born again. We cannot possibly earn His salvation by our own good works.

BUT, we continue in His salvation by our obedience to His commandments.

IF, at the time of death, we are still saved and have not fallen away from the faith through disobedience, we will then be approved to enter into eternal life.


Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. NKJV

We are not approved to enter eternal life based on our faith alone. We are approved to enter eternal life based on our works. Good works prove good faith. Bad works prove dead faith. Dead faith is worthless.

James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. NKJV

Dead faith (faith without good works) can save no one.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. NIV

You can read the story about the sheep and the goats to get a more clear picture. Matthew 25:32-46

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[Dialogist]

A basically divine trade-in. In short, basically giving your life away and receiving an eternal life. In long, coming to terms and believing that you are a sinner and understanding by the consequences of your sinfulness, God is true and correct in sentencing you to hellfire, but at salvation, Jesus is the one who interposes as a stand-in for your sentence and by accepting it, instead of carrying out your sentence to hell, you are receiving the gift of Life through total and complete grace and mercy...

Based on my understanding, I think your definition is consistent with the Roman Catholic and most Protestant understandings of Salvation.

The Orthodox Christian understanding is a little different.

As you state, the non-Orthodox view is that the natural state of man is condemnation, which can only be avoided through God's intervention with some largely passive voluntary participation by man. Salvation is the avoidance of punishment.

I think I am correctly representing the Orthodox view when I say that the natural state of man is seen as a pure existence in the image and likeness of God. Because of the combined work of the world, the devil, and our own sinfulness, we do not clearly recognize our true nature in ourself or others and therefore do not live in accordance with that nature. Salvation is the restoration of man, brought about not only by Christ's death, but also by the mysteries of His Incarnation and Resurrection. Our lives should be led, as St. Paul writes, working out our salvation in fear and trembling. Salvation is a work of synergy between God and man toward a complete spiritual transformation.

In this alternate sense of salvation, I think we would say that all men were saved through Christ's Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection, but that it is up to individuals to choose what each will do with this salvation. One could go about ignoring the Lord's gift to us, living in sinfulness and in synergy with the world and the devil; or accepting the Lord's gift and living in repentance [in the true Biblical sense] and in synergy with God.

 

[Jan001]

I said this:
"Rejecting Him as a saved, born again, regenerated, justified person does NOT result in loss of salvation.

There are no verses that teach such a thing."

Again, falling away refers to loss of faith or believing, not loss of salvation. No verse teaches that. Also, this passage doesn't say anything about loss of salvation, but rather, those who fall away from the faith won't be "renewed again unto repentance". iow, by their leaving the faith, they aren't going to repent.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,a]">[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. NKJV

This statement is hyperbole. It is an exaggeration to make the point that if a person rejects Jesus Christ by his works, it is not easy to come back to repentance again.


Falling away means loss of belief in Jesus Christ. Falling away means loss of salvation due to the person's evil works.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. NKJV

What will happen to people who deny Jesus Christ by their evildoing? Jesus Christ will deny them entrance into heaven.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Only the people who love Jesus are approved to receive the crown of eternal life after they die.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. NKJV

Who loves Jesus?

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Disobedient Christians who die unrepentant will hear the following from the Lord Jesus:

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ NKJV

 

[HannahElizaW]

Based on my understanding, I think your definition is consistent with the Roman Catholic and most Protestant understandings of Salvation.

The Orthodox Christian understanding is a little different.

As you state, the non-Orthodox view is that the natural state of man is condemnation, which can only be avoided through God's intervention with some largely passive voluntary participation by man. Salvation is the avoidance of punishment.

I think I am correctly representing the Orthodox view when I say that the natural state of man is seen as a pure existence in the image and likeness of God. Because of the combined work of the world, the devil, and our own sinfulness, we do not clearly recognize our true nature in ourself or others and therefore do not live in accordance with that nature. Salvation is the restoration of man, brought about not only by Christ's death, but also by the mysteries of His Incarnation and Resurrection. Our lives should be led, as St. Paul writes, working out our salvation in fear and trembling. Salvation is a work of synergy between God and man toward a complete spiritual transformation.

In this alternate sense of salvation, I think we would say that all men were saved through Christ's Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection, but that it is up to individuals to choose what each will do with this salvation. One could go about ignoring the Lord's gift to us, living in sinfulness and in synergy with the world and the devil; or accepting the Lord's gift and living in repentance [in the true Biblical sense] and in synergy with God.

That sounds a bit more clarifying than the definition I gave, haha.

 

[outsidethecamp]

And I never said there was. But please notice the big difference between one who NEVER believed (unbeliever) vs a believer who "believes for a while" per Luke 8:13.

Given ALL the changes that God performs for the one who has believed, and the fact that Scripture does NOT ever suggest or indicate that God undoes any of those changes.

If someone can show from Scripture that God has or will undo all the changes that occur when one believes, I will be convinced. Otherwise, I won't be.

The believer undos all the changes.
He hardens his new heart and many more "undos".

1. The Believer lets the things which he has heard slip (Heb. 2:1)
2. The Believer goes astray (Mt. 18:12,13)
3. The Believer errs from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
4. The Believer errs from the faith and overthrows the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
5. The Believer loses their savour (saltiness) (Lk. 14:34,35)
6. The Believer is offended by Jesus (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
7. The Believer falls away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
8. The Believer believes for awhile but in time of temptation falls away (Lk. 8:13)
9. The Believer is offended, betrays one another and hates one another (Mt. 24:10)
10. The Believer shipwrecks their faith (1 Tim. 1:19)
11. The Believer turns back and no longer follows Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
12. The Believer forsakes the right way and goes astray (2 Pet. 2:15)
13. The Believer stops abiding in Christ and as a branch, be withered and thrown away (Jn. 15:6)
14. The Believer is offended (Jn. 16:1)
15. The Believer turns aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
16. The Believer departs from the faith, having their conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:1-2)
17. The Believer turns their ears away from the truth and turns towards fables (2 Tim. 4:4)
18. The Believer acquires an evil heart of unbelief and departs from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
19. The Believer falls away to the point where they can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
20. The Believer refuses Him that speaketh from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
21. The Believer becomes lukewarm and gets spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
22. The Believer does not remain faithful and will be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
23. The Believer has God take away their part from the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
24. The Believer is led away with the error of the wicked and falls from their steadfastness (2 Pet 3:17)
25. The Believer is carried away by all kinds of strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9)

Did you know the Believer could do these things?

 

[Jan001]

.........
Salvation is the avoidance of punishment.

I hope salvation is much more than that.

God created only very good things. But, Adam sinned. We all inherited the consequences of his sin which included the barring of the gates into heaven. No work of the Law of Moses and no righteous works of any person could atone for Adam's sin and re-open these gates. This is why Abraham and the other righteous persons were not allowed into heaven until after Jesus died on the cross. Lazarus was in a special place called Abraham's bosom with Abraham and other righteous persons and they were all waiting for their release so that they could enter into heaven.

It was Jesus' perfect sacrifice which atoned for Adam's sin. Only Jesus who is both God and Man could atone for Adam's sin and thereby restore mankind's spiritual relationship to God. Adam's sin made us spiritual enemies of God. Jesus' sacrifice made us God's friends again. Jesus is the Mediator between God and man because He is both God and Man. No mere human could possibly restore mankind's relationship with God.

Adam's son Seth was righteous and he was not under the first covenant or the second covenant. Noah also. It is from this line that Jesus Christ was born. However, the New Covenant requires belief and baptism to become restored to God's friendship and be approved to enter into eternal life.

 

[Albion]

The believer undos all the changes.
He hardens his new heart and many more "undos".

1. The Believer lets the things which he has heard slip (Heb. 2:1)
2. The Believer goes astray (Mt. 18:12,13)
3. The Believer errs from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
4. The Believer errs from the faith and overthrows the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
5. The Believer loses their savour (saltiness) (Lk. 14:34,35)
6. The Believer is offended by Jesus (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
7. The Believer falls away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
8. The Believer believes for awhile but in time of temptation falls away (Lk. 8:13)
9. The Believer is offended, betrays one another and hates one another (Mt. 24:10)
10. The Believer shipwrecks their faith (1 Tim. 1:19)
11. The Believer turns back and no longer follows Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
12. The Believer forsakes the right way and goes astray (2 Pet. 2:15)
13. The Believer stops abiding in Christ and as a branch, be withered and thrown away (Jn. 15:6)
14. The Believer is offended (Jn. 16:1)
15. The Believer turns aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
16. The Believer departs from the faith, having their conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:1-2)
17. The Believer turn their ears away from the truth and turns unto fables (2 Tim. 4:4)
18. The Believer acquires an evil heart of unbelief and departs from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
19. The Believer falls away to the point where they can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
20. The Believer refuses Him that speaketh from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
21. The Believer becomes lukewarm and gets spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
22. The Believer does not remain faithful and will be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
23. The Believer has God take away their part from the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
24. The Believer is led away with the error of the wicked and falls from their steadfastness (2 Pet 3:17)
25. The Believer is carried away by all kinds of strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9)

Did you know the Believer could do these things?

Even the Demons "believe," according to Scripture. Belief is not the issue. Having Faith is.

 

[outsidethecamp]

Even the Demons "believe," according to Scripture. Belief is not the issue. Having Faith is.

The verses mention faith, too. You have to have faith to believe unto salvation of your soul. Demons don't have the kind of belief (faith) that will save them. Their belief is one that acknowledges the existence of Christ, but cannot enter into relationship with Him.

True belief is synonymous with obedience and you have to have faith to obey. So true belief, is not incongruous with obedience and faith. They are a 3-legged stool, and you need all 3 legs.

1Pe_2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Heb_10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Albion]

The verses mention faith, too. You have to have faith to believe unto salvation of your soul. Demons don't have the kind of belief (faith) that will save them.

Certainly. To have Faith is to believe, but belief by itself doesn't save.

Not one of the verses you listed conflicts with this understanding.

 

[outsidethecamp]

Certainly. To have Faith is to believe, but belief by itself doesn't save.

Not one of the verses you listed conflicts with this understanding.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I'll just leave this debate now by saying that I am guaranteed to get my questions answered by God on a one on one basis in Heaven.

Because of that, I can leave this unresolved thread and go on to other things.

You folks who aren't sure about your salvation being guaranteed had better keep the old nose to the grindstone just in case.

The possibility of God's letting you slip away into Hell is bad enough without adding your not getting your theological questions answered first before you go to your possible future.

It's nice to rest fully in the fact that I was sealed for eternity with the very Spirit of God when I believed the gospel on a personal level.

Good luck keeping your nose clean oh ye of little faith. I'd love to see you on the other side.

 

[outsidethecamp]

f

I'll just leave this debate now by saying that I am guaranteed to get my questions answered by God on a one on one basis in Heaven.

Because of that, I can leave this unresolved thread and go on to other things.

You folks who aren't sure about your salvation being guaranteed had better keep the old nose to the grindstone just in case.

The possibility of God's letting you slip away into Hell is bad enough without adding your not getting your theological questions answered first before you go to your possible future.

It's nice to rest fully in the fact that I was sealed for eternity with the very Spirit of God when I believed the gospel on a personal level.

Good luck keeping your nose clean. I'd love to see you on the other side.

Fallacious response. One is completely secure in the Lord. But one is not secure in a sinful lifestyle.

Show me a scripture where one has total security in a lifestyle of sin and disobedience.

 

[Marvin Knox]

f


Fallacious response. One is completely secure in the Lord. But one is not secure in a sinful lifestyle.

Show me a scripture where one has total security in a lifestyle of sin and disobedience.

"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:14-25

 

[gigman7]

Yes, I agree. I guess I wasn't clear. Saving faith is a singular event as well as an ongoing event in our lives. We grow in faith and must live by faith. (ongoing).

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Yes, I can see what you are saying now.

 

[JLB777]

To obey the Gospel means to believe it. And once it is believed, the believer is changed by God into a new creation (2 Cor 5:17), is born again, is given ETERNAL life, is justified freely, and WILL NOT come into condemnation. That is a promise.

Repent AND believe.

To obey the Gospel is to repent.

Repent means to turn to God, that you may be forgiven of your sins and granted eternal life.

Believe mean trust and commit, as well as obey.

Believe without obedience is thd same as faith without the work of obedience...

That's why Jesus said repent and believe the Gospel.

The obedience part of being saved by faith is repent.

Your doctrine is lacking... Repent


JLB

 

[HatGuy]

ROFL......this has to be one of the world's worst collection of armchair theologians and Bible "students" ever assembled. I show him a passage that says a born again person cannot continue living a life of sin and he claims I am violating scripture by quoting from it.

Well its the internets folks so it takes all kinds. Totally bored now with this level of pontification over scripture. Its like open mike Sunday morning where people walk off the street and preach whatever they want not what god's word says.

I have nothing to lose either position but i say this to both sides. You all suck at rightly dividing the word of God. You don't look to it for what it says you try to back ideas that originate out of your own head.

Frankly at this point I think I see more with those who don't hold to security (even though I do). At least they don't try this putrid heresy from the pit of hell that salvation isn't salvation from living bound in sin but just a get out of hell meal ticket. Jesus came to save us from sin. Thats the Gospel. - not some perversion of the word grace

"only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
Galations 1:8

Do you believe in the doctrine of entire sanctification?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Falling away means loss of belief in Jesus Christ. Falling away means loss of salvation due to the person's evil works.

There are NO verses that teach that loss of belief equals loss of salvation. That is a fallacy. Unsupported by Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The believer undos all the changes.

please show me the Scripture.

He hardens his new heart and many more "undos".

Yes, he may harden his new heart, but where in Scripture supports any undoes any part of salvation?

1. The Believer lets the things which he has heard slip (Heb. 2:1)

2. How is this even close to loss of salvation?
3. 
   

4. The Believer goes astray (Mt. 18:12,13)

5. How does this equate to loss of salvation?
6. 
   

7. The Believer errs from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
   [*]The Believer errs from the faith and overthrows the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
   [*]The Believer loses their savour (saltiness) (Lk. 14:34,35)
   [*]The Believer is offended by Jesus (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
   [*]The Believer falls away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
   [*]The Believer believes for awhile but in time of temptation falls away (Lk. 8:13)
   [*]The Believer is offended, betrays one another and hates one another (Mt. 24:10)
   [*]The Believer shipwrecks their faith (1 Tim. 1:19)
   [*]The Believer turns back and no longer follows Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
   [*]The Believer forsakes the right way and goes astray (2 Pet. 2:15)
   [*]The Believer stops abiding in Christ and as a branch, be withered and thrown away (Jn. 15:6)
   [*]The Believer is offended (Jn. 16:1)
   [*]The Believer turns aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
   [*]The Believer departs from the faith, having their conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:1-2)
   [*]The Believer turns their ears away from the truth and turns towards fables (2 Tim. 4:4)
   [*]The Believer acquires an evil heart of unbelief and departs from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
   [*]The Believer falls away to the point where they can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
   [*]The Believer refuses Him that speaketh from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
   [*]The Believer becomes lukewarm and gets spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
   [*]The Believer does not remain faithful and will be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
   [*]The Believer has God take away their part from the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
   [*]The Believer is led away with the error of the wicked and falls from their steadfastness (2 Pet 3:17)
   [*]The Believer is carried away by all kinds of strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9)

8. No way I'm going to address all these things, which, btw, do NOT say anything about "undoing" anything.

So, I'll ask again, where does Scripture teach that eternal life can be revoked/removed/lost, our new birth can be undoned?

Did you know the Believer could do these things?

Very much so. Yet, none of the things listed come close to saying that any part of salvation can be undone.

I got a real laugh out of "letting things heard slip", being "offended by others", "turns towards fables", and is "carried away by strange doctrines". None of these things result in loss of salvation.

The rest of the list is about loss of rewards or other things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Certainly. To have Faith is to believe, but belief by itself doesn't save.

Now, that's an amazing statement, given the answer of Paul to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be SAVED. Acts 16:30

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

Either Paul lied, or your view is dead wrong.