Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

Marvin Knox said:

I was a lusty young rascal and failed miserably on pretty much a daily basis - or so it seemed. I repented each time and did well for a while only to fail again and again.

I held the faith as I understood it for a year or two. After a while I came to the conclusion that I simply could not stay faithful to the Lord. I cried out to Him daily and my Christian life was miserable..

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A lot of real believers have gone through situations like that but each repentance is real and is forgiven by Christ. As the book of proverbs states its the getting back up that defines a good response. each time you are cleansed and the sin is broken. Conttnuous sin is isn't falling down and getting back up -Its just sinning nonstop with no repentance.

Butch5 said:

We've had the fallacies of the ad hominem, avoiding the issue, equivocation, and the Red herring. You're not really in a position to chastise others.

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Too bad. You'll just have to live with it. Just like I have to live with you posting your false gospel

What is the "end of our faith?"

1Pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 3:19 "Learn from their mistakes," Paul seems to be saying. "And we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief."

We can observe the obvious," Paul explains. "They (all of them) were not able to enter into God's purposed intent for them because of unbelief." There are consequences for unfaithfulness. Paul had written earlier, "every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense" (2:2). The offending Israelites were excluded from the land of promise they sought, and that despite their best efforts to overcome God's decree and enter the land (Numb. 14:39-45), which only resulted in the immediate destruction of many of them. They could not reverse their course after apostasy.

Was Paul warning the Christians in Jerusalem that if they responded in unbelief, deserted Christ, and reverted to Judaism, that they, too, would find the consequences to be final, fatal and fixed (Heb. 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 12:16,17), with no possibility of reversal?

""The condition of persevering faith should not be viewed as "works" of performance that merit God's action or require God to act in certain ways. God's actions are not contingent on what man does. The only condition of responsibility that man has is to exercise the freedom of choice that God created us with, choosing and deciding to be receptive to God's activity in faith. God does not impose Himself upon us. A faith-love relationship with God cannot (by definition) be coerced. Christians, having initially been receptive in faith to Christ's performance on their behalf, and having experienced the blessing of Christ's presence and activity, still have freedom of choice and the responsibility to exercise such in receptivity to Christ's activity. "As you received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him" (Col. 2:6) in faith and continued faithfulness. The failure and refusal to continue to be receptive to God's activity in faith puts us in jeopardy of final, fixed and fatal consequences of "standing against" God in apostasy."" Jim Fowler

Butch5 said:

"The Bible says this" is the fallacy of reification. The Bible can't speak it must be read and interpreted. It is interpreted through one's world view.

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More utter garbage and nonsense. I can see why with thousands of post you have like 4 likes. You interpret the scriptures by the meaning of the Hebrew and greek words and the context not your present world view.

That why Christians can all read the same passage and come away with a different understanding.

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No because we have people like you who see a verse clearly say something and can't deal with it so they do like you are doing try and run away from truth. Its to be TOTALLY expected since if sinner s didn't resist Bible truth the whole world would be saved

You keep challenging people with these two passages but won't elaborate on how you understand them. You says you believe what the Bible says, but the Bible doesn't say anything.......But, the Bible doesn't say anything.

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By that piece of silliness I don't even have to respond to what you say since you typed it and typed words cant speak. See how stupid that logic is??? Its just word games because you can't answer the verses.

Call it whatever you want but here it is again...try answering it next time

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."
1 John 3:9

and this

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
1 john 5:18

JLB777 said:

Sorry bro, you have been fed some bad doctrine. No such thing as a pre-trib rapture.

I have noticed that those who believe the lie of the pre-trib rapture, also seem to believe the false doctrine of OSAS.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

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One has nothing to do with the other so don't even try connecting them for some false leverage. I accept the obvious biblical truth of OSAS and that there is no such thing as a pre trib rapture so that blows your connecting them

AVBunyan said:

Well friend show me where I am wrong - I took the time to expound your error.
Are you saying too many errors or are you saying, "I don't have clue what you are talking about?!?!?!?"

Why not spend some time with Paul - he was given thedoctrine for us today. Show me from Paul where a saved, redeemed, sealed, seated, justified, glorified, sanctified saint in the body of Christ can lose it.

Thank ye kindly
God bless

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Paul spoke of some departing from the faith and casting off their first faith having damnation. Young men not to be overseers unless they fall into the condemnation of the Devil. paul spoke of believers in danger and decived if they thought they would enter the kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:9,10. Paul spoke of a great falling away in the end times 2 Thess.

heres a few

But keep in Mind Judas in Matthew 10 and Acts 1. He was a sheep sent to the lost sheep according to Jesus and he fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book of the living.


1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

"4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Galatians 4:20
I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you." doesnt sound like assurance or OSAS to me, and they had received the spirit by the hearing of faith.

MikeEnders said:

NO doubt about it. this would be a VERY compelling passage and I would not believe in Eternal security if what people said about it was true. The problem is that its not. Lets face it. the passage nowhere says saved, born again or believers. It uses other words and the strength of weakness of this passage to teach saved and lost really comes down to the words it uses

If its true that a person once enlightened must be referring to a believer then you have me. This would be a knock out verse and not admitting it would be ducking and twisting form God's word.however if the words are used in other situations and circumstances then sorry its not the knockout blow.

Many words over the hundreds of years of Christianity have taken on a spiritual meaning that the words in Roman culture just didn't have before the church. The Greek words all were a part of a secular unsaved culture before Christ came. Taking a look at enlightened it simple means to have a light shun on you. The real problem you have with that word is that john chapter one uses the EXACT same word

"He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;"
John 1:9

There the passage uses enlightened to describe Christ shine a light on whole world. That makes the claim that Hebrews 6 using the word enlightened must mean that he is talking about Christians entirely wrong.

The only word left that even vaguely would imply believers is "partakers of the Holy Spirit". I am a little pressed to do something so I will get to that in another post but surprisingly to some if you do a search for the word partake it is used in a wide manner of ways and the phrase partakers of the Holy spirit isn't even a used phase anywhere else to refer to believers.

As an example revelations refers to partaking in other people's sin by just being in close proximity to them when judgement is about to fall - s partake can simply mean to experience or be connected to something - which all the first century believer Hebrews is talking to we know had saved or unsaved

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So, you don't think Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians?

It appears that the author (the evidence suggests Paul) was addressing a particular community of Christians with whom he was personally acquainted. He was aware of their having endured persecution (10:32,33; 12:4), as well as their present situation (5:12; 6:9; 13:17), and it seems he intended to revisit them (13:19,23). The author and the readers were mutually acquainted with Timothy (13:23). Most probably, the recipients of this letter were Jewish Christians living in Jerusalem. Who else would have had such attachment to Jewish history and theology, such close ties with Temple worship and its sacrifices, such pressure to relapse to Judaic religion, than the Hebrew saints in Jerusalem?

It is likely that he decided to write this letter to encourage (13:22) the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem to not lose their confidence (10:35,36) by emphasizing the superiority of Jesus over all religion. The Hebrew Christians were being pressured to revert to Judaism, to join the patriotic cause of militaristic defense against the Roman empire. Christianity did not seem to be going anywhere except among the Gentiles, and even then Paul was on death-row in Rome. Some of the Christians were not even assembling together anymore (10:25), were becoming casual about sin (10:26; 12:10-16), and were in danger of apostatizing (6:4-6; 10:26-31).

MikeEnders said:

A lot of real believers have gone through situations like that but each repentance is real and is forgiven by Christ. As the book of proverbs states its the getting back up that defines a good response. each time you are cleansed and the sin is broken. Conttnuous sin is isn't falling down and getting back up -Its just sinning nonstop with no repentance.

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I pretty much enrolled in the devil's entire program when I left the faith.

I lived in that wretched condition for over 15 years non stop.

If there was a limit to just how much debauchery would lead to a loss of salvation I must have pushed to the max.

I'm glad that He was faithful to bring me through without casting me away.

But then it was His promise to do so for a son like me wasn't it?

MikeEnders said:

NO doubt about it. this would be a VERY compelling passage and I would not believe in Eternal security if what people said about it was true. The problem is that its not. Lets face it. the passage nowhere says saved, born again or believers.

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It's this kind of blatant dishonesty in rightly dividing the word of truth that has led to so much false doctrine such as OSAS.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You honestly believe that enlightened partakers of the Holy Ghost that have tasted of the heavenly gift and the powers of the world to come, is a reference to unbelievers???

Total Nonsense!!!


JLB

In Jeremiah 31:31-34, the New Testament is referred to as the New COVENANT. This would be a covenant in which God would write His covenant in the hearts of His people Israel. The old covenant was not effective because they could not keep it because it never entered their hearts. This prophecy of Jeremiah was fulfilled on Calvary and on the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came to dwell in the hearts of the apostles and disciples. In Acts 10, the New Covenant was extended to the first Gentile, a man named Cornelius. The Holy Spirit subsequently entered his heart, just as He had entered the hearts of the Jewish disciples. I think we are aware of the rest of the history.

The apostle Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote these words in Romans 10:9-10: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him [bodily] from the dead, thou shalt be saved; for with the heart man believeth UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

This verse tells us that believing on Christ for salvation immediately attributes His righteousness unto the believer.
"Abraham believed God, and He [God] counted it to him for righteousness." [Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:4]

Then Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Thus does the Holy Spirit enter the true believer's heart to stay, there to dwell forever. "And just as it is apppointed unto men ONCE to die, and after this the judgment, so Christ was once for all time offered to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." [Hebrews 9:27-28]

Jesus died only once. The sin debt was stamped "PAID IN FULL" for the believer by the Father. If it were possible to lose our salvation, we could never get another chance to be saved again. If His death was ineffective the first time, why would we think it would be more effective the second time? ["For in that He died, he died unto sin ONCE for all; but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God." Romans 6:10]

How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent word;
What more can he say than to you he hath said,
To you who for refuge to Jesus hath fled?

Jesus paid it all;
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left its crimson stain;
He washed it white as snow.

He paid a debt He did not owe
Because I owed a debt I could not pay.

If we could lose our salvation, we could never be saved all over again, because there would remain no more sacrifice for sin.

My hope has found a resting-place, not in device or creed;
I trust the ever-living One; He blood for me shall plead;
I need no other argument; I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died, and that He died for me.

BTW, that passage just quoted above from Hebrews chapter 6 does not refer to believers. It refers to apostate unbelievers. If it referred to believers, it would most likely have stated such. There would be something in it which would at least have given a clue that it referred to believers. But nowhere does it indicate that such a person ever really took the step to place his faith in Christ.The "renewal to repentance" indicates that they had come right up to the point where they had to decide to trust Christ or not, and decided not. Once they reach that point and turn away, they would be putting Jesus back up on the cross again [in their conscious thinking] and causing Him to go through all the suffering and shame again. It won't, and can't, happen. Read Romans 1:18-32.
See also Hebrews 10:15-39.
Also, Hebrews 7:24-25: "But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood; wherefore He is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST [meaning ONCE FOR ALL TIME] that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them."

How many more Scriptures do you want? The Bible is full of them. Dear brother or sister in Christ, please read carefully and prayerfully the Scriptures listed above. There is joy unspeakable and full of glory in them!

gigman7 said:

Eh, the only ones who have responded were the ones who said they'd like to hear an answer also.

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Admit OSAS is a false doctrine and I'll post a link to the person that responded. Dare to take the challenge?

The Reformed understanding of the perseverance of the saints is significantly different from the modern OSAS doctrine that is common among North American evangelicals.

FreeGrace2 said:

All of this is refuted by the simple fact that eternal life is a gift from God, received by faith in Christ and is irrevocable.

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False prophets makes false claims regularly. Proving it shows credibility. What say you?

Where does the bible say eternal life is irrevocable? Certainly not Romans 11:29, that's about blessings and a promise made to the Jews. The Israelites are not saved under the law. Romans 11 is about the Jewish people under the law.

gigman7 said:

There's the most important thing you said in this whole thing. He never had to become your son again. If we become a child of God, we are always a child of God, meaning a Christian, or meaning saved. We are all going to sin. We never stop sinning. Bit we also never stop being a child of God(being saved).

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Here's what you don't get. You don't become a child of God by professing Christ as lord and savior and accepting His gift of salvation. Plus you're wrong too. A child of God doesn't practise sin.

You're a child of God after your transformation. You only missed it by the length of a lifetime. Here's proof, have you stopped sinning? Read'em and weep.

1 John 3:9 English Standard Version
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Here's what you don't get. You don't become a child of God by professing Christ as lord and savior and accepting His gift of salvation. Plus you're wrong too. A child of God doesn't practise sin.

You're a child of God after your transformation. You only missed it by the length of a lifetime.

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1 John 3
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is

Tellastory said:

2 Timothy 2:19-21 testifies both of those vessels are in His House.

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Nevertheless the foundation of God is sure - Margin, "steady." The meaning is, that though some had been turned away by the arts of these errorists, yet the foundation of the church which God had laid remained firm; compare Ephesians 2:20, "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone." As long as this foundation remained firm, there was no reason to be troubled from the few instances of apostasy which had occurred; comparePsalm 11:3. It is not uncommon to compare the church to a building erected on a solid foundation;Ephesians 2:20-21; 1 Corinthians 3:9-10; Matthew 16:18.

Having this seal - Or rather a seal with this inscription. The word "seal" is sometimes used to denote the instrument by which an impression is made, and sometimes the impression or inscription itself. A seal is used for security Matthew 27:66, or as a mark of genuineness; Revelation 9:4. The seal here is one that was affixed to the foundation, and seems to refer to some inscription on the foundation-stone which always remained there, and which denoted the character and design of the edifice. The allusion is to the custom, in rearing an edifice, of inscribing the name of the builder and the design of the edifice on the cornerstone. See Rosenmuller, Alte undneue Morgenland, No. 405. So the church of Christ is a building reared by the hands of God. Its foundation has been firmly and securely laid, and on that foundation there is an inscription always remaining which determines the character of the edifice.

The Lord knoweth them that are his - This is one of the inscriptions on the foundation-stone of the church, which seems to mark the character of the building. It always stands there, no matter who apostatizes. It is at the same time a fearful inscription - showing that no one can deceive God; that he is intimately acquainted with all who enter that building; and that in the multitudes which enter there, the friends and the foes of God are intimately known. He can separate his own friends from all others, and his constant care will be extended to all who are truly his own, to keep them from falling. This has the appearance of being a quotation, but no such passage is found in the Old Testament in so many words. In Nahum 1:7, the following words are found: "And he knoweth them that trust in him;" and it is possible that Paul may have had that in his eye; but it is not necessary to suppose that he designed it as a quotation. A phrase somewhat similar to this is found in 1 Num 16:5, "the Lord will show who are his," rendered in the Septuagint, "God knoweth who are his;" and Whitby supposes that this is the passage referred to. But whether Paul had these passages in view or not, it is clear that he meant to say that it was one of the fundamental things in religion, that God knew who were his own people, and that he would preserve them from the danger of making shipwreck of their faith.

And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity - This is the other seal or inscription which is made on the foundation which God has laid. The foundation has two inscriptions - the first implying that God knows all who are his own people; the other, that all who are his professed people should depart from evil. This is not found in so many words in the Old Testament, and, like the former, it is not to be regarded as a quotation. The meaning is, that it is an elementary principle in the true church, that all who become members of it should lead holy lives. It was also true that they would lead holy lives, and amidst all the defections of errorists, and all their attempts to draw away others from the true faith, those might be known to be the true people of God who did avoid evil.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
But in a great house - Still keeping up the comparison of the church with a building. The idea is, that the church is a large edifice, and that in such a building we are not to expect entire uniformity in all the articles which it contains.
There are not only vessels of gold and of silver, ... - You are not to expect to find all the articles of furniture alike, or all made of the same material. Variety in the form, and use, and material, is necessary in furnishing such a house.

And some to honour, and some to dishonour - Some to most honorable uses - as drinking vessels, and vessels to contain costly viands, and some for the less honorable purposes connected with cooking, etc. The same thing is to be expected in the church. See this idea illustrated at greater length under another figure in the notes at 1 Corinthians 12:14-26; compare the notes, Romans 9:21. The application here seems to be, that in the church it is to be presumed that there will be a great variety of gifts and attainments, and that we are no more to expect that all will be alike, than we are that all the vessels in a large house will be made of gold.

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour - If a man "cleanse" or "purify" himself; compare the notes on John 15:2. The word "these" refers, here, to the persons represented by the vessels of wood and of earth - the vessels made to dishonor, as mentioned in the previous verse 2 Timothy 2:20. The idea is, that if one would preserve himself from the corrupting influence of such men, he would be fitted to be a vessel of honor, or to be employed in the most useful and honorable service in the cause of his Master. On the word "vessel," see the notes at Acts 9:15.

And meet for the master's use - Suitable to be employed by the Lord Jesus in promoting his work on earth.

Tellastory said:

Those that defile the temple of God, their physical bodies will be destroyed as the wages of sin is death, but the spirit will be saved so as through fire.

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Makes no sense. No reason for God to kill someone going to heaven. As a person don't get saved going through fire either. either.

Tellastory said:

1 Corinthians 5: 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Would not the left behind unrepentant saints be subjected to the devil in making war on the saints?

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This does not refer to Paul alone in declaring his opinion, but means that they were to be assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus, and that they were to proceed to exercise discipline by his authority. The idea is, that the authority to administer discipline is derived from the Lord Jesus Christ, and is to be exercised in his name, and to promote his honor.

When ye are gathered together - Or, "You being assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus." This is to be connected with the previous words, and means:

(1) That they were to be assembled for the purpose of administering discipline; and,

(2) That this was to be done in the name and by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

And my spirit - 1 Corinthians 5:3. As if I were with you; that is, with my declared opinion; knowing what I would advise, were I one of you; or, I being virtually present with you by having delivered my opinion. It cannot mean that Paul's soul would be really present with them, but that, knowing his views and feelings, and what he would do, and knowing his love for them, they could act as if he were there. This passage proves that discipline belongs to the church itself; and so deep was Paul's conviction of this, that even he would not administer it, without their concurrence and action. And if Paul would not do it, and in a case too where bodily pains were to be inflicted by miraculous agency, assuredly no other ministers have a right to assume the authority to administer discipline without the action and the concurrence of the church itself.

(The general doctrine of the New Testament is that the government of the church is invested, not in the people or church members at large, but in certain rulers or office-bearers, 1 Corinthians 12:28;Ephesians 4:11-12; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; Hebrews 13:7; 1 Timothy 5:17. We find these elders or rulers existing in every church to which our attention is directed, while the people are continually exhorted to yield a willing submission to their authority. Now the passage under review must be explained in consistency with the analogy of truth, or the general scope of Scripture on the subject. It is unwise to build our conclusion on an insulated text. But, in reality, the language of the apostle, in this place, when fairly examined, gives no countenance to the idea that the judicial power of the church resides in the people. The case of the incestuous man was "judged by the apostle himself" previous to the transmission of his letter to the Corinthian church, which was therefore enjoined, not to adjudicate on the matter, but simply to give effect to the decision of Paul. "I verily 'have judged already' concerning him who hath done this deed; in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ," etc. If it be still demanded why then were the people to assemble? the answer is obvious. It was necessary that the sentence should be published, where the crime had been committed, that the members of the church might concur in it, and withdraw from the society of the guilty person. The simple fact of the people being assembled is no proof that they were judges.

Yet candor requires us to state that the words in the third verse, ἤδη κεκρίκα ēdē kekrika (I have already judged) are supposed by some to intimate, not the delivering of an authoritative sentence, but the simple expression of an opinion in regard to what ought to be done. This, however, seems neither consistent with the scope of the passage, nor with just ideas of apostolical authority. The apostles had "the care of all the churches, with power to settle matters of faith and order, to determine controversies, and exercise the rod of discipline on all offenders, whether pastors or flock; 1 Corinthians 5:3-6; 2 Corinthians 10:8; 2 Corinthians 13:10.")

With the power ... - This phrase is to be connected with the following verse. "I have determined what ought to be done. The sentence which I have passed is this. You are to be assembled in the name and authority of Christ. I shall be virtually present. And you are to deliver such a one to Satan, 'by the power of our Lord Jesus Christ.'" That is, it is to be done by you; and the miraculous power which will be evinced in the case will proceed from the Lord Jesus. The word "power" δύναμις dunamis is used commonly in the New Testament to denote some miraculous and extraordinary power; and here evidently means that the Lord Jesus would put forth such a power in the infliction of pain and for the preservation of the purity of his church.

Tellastory said:

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Better believe that is how the Marriage Supper will be held.

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Your glorying - Your boasting; or confidence in your present condition, as if you were eminent in purity and piety.

Is not good - Is not well, proper, right. Boasting is never good; but it is especially wrong when, as here, there is an existing evil that is likely to corrupt the whole church. When people are disposed to boast, they should at once make the inquiry whether there is not some sin indulged in, on account of which they should be humbled and subdued. If all individual Christians, and all Christian churches, and all people of every rank and condition, would look at things as they are, they would never find occasion for boasting. It is only when we are blind to the realities of the ease, and overlook our faults, that we are disposed to boast. The reason why this was improper in Corinth, Paul states - that any sin would tend to corrupt the whole church, and that therefore they ought not to boast until that was removed.

A little leaven ... - A small quantity of leaven or yeast will pervade the entire mass of flour, or dough, and diffuse itself through it all. This is evidently a proverbial saying. It occurs also in Galatians 5:9. Compare the note at Matthew 13:33. A similar figure occurs also in the Greek classic writers - By leaven the Hebrews metaphorically understood whatever had the power of corrupting, whether doctrine, or example, or anything else. See the note at Matthew 16:6. The sense here is plain. A single sin indulged in, or allowed in the church, would act like leaven - it would pervade and corrupt the whole church, unless it was removed. On this ground, and for this reason, discipline should be administered, and the corrupt member should be removed.

Tellastory said:

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

That is why the pre trib rapture will come as that is when God will judge His House first as we can trust the faithful Creator in well doing of the keeping of their souls while they suffer ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) the coming fire on the earth & the subsequence great tribulation as it is that day Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 & Jesus also in Luke 12:40-49.

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This chapter is entirely occupied with a notice of an offence which existed in the church at Corinth and with a statement of the measures which the apostle expected them to pursue in regard to it. Of the existence of this offence he had been informed, probably by "those of the house of Chloe," 1 Corinthians 1:11, and there is reason to suppose that they had not even alluded to it in the letter which they had sent to him asking advice; see 1 Corinthians 7:1; compare the Introduction. The apostle 1 Corinthians 5:1 reproves them for tolerating a species of licentiousness which was not tolerated even by the pagans; he reproves them 1 Corinthians 5:2 for being puffed up with pride even while this scandal existed in their church; he ordered them immediately to purify the church by removing the incestuous person 1 Corinthians 5:4-5; and exhorted them to preserve themselves from the influence which a single corrupt person might have, operating like leaven in a mass; 1 Corinthians 5:6-7. Then, lest they should mistake his meaning, and suppose that by commanding them not to keep company with licentious persons 1 Corinthians 5:9, he meant to say, that they should withdraw from all contact with the pagans who were known to be idolaters and corrupt, he says that that former command was not designed to forbid all contact with them, 1 Corinthians 5:9-12; but that he meant his injunction now to extend particularly to such as were professed members of the church; that they were not to cut off all contact with society at large because it was corrupt; that if any person professed to be a Christian and yet was guilty of such practices they were to disown him 1 Corinthians 5:11; that it was not his province, nor did he assume it, to judge the pagan world which was without the church 1 Corinthians 5:12; but that this was entirely consistent with the view that he had a right to exercise discipline within the church, on such as professed to be Christians; and that therefore, they were bound to put away that wicked person.

HatGuy said:

1 John 3
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is

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Why post something you can't explain what it means?

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Why post something you can't explain what it means?

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Because it explains itself. We are already children of God. We're not waiting a lifetime to become children of God.

Tellastory said:

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Therefore, it is on that basis that Jesus is denying them; rejecting them; disqualifying them, & leaving them behind BUT even those believers that no longer believes in Him, He still abides in them as testified below.

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They profess that they know God - That is, the Jewish teachers particularly, who are referred to in Titus 1:14. All those persons were professors of religion, and claimed that they had a special knowledge of God.

But in works they deny him - Their conduct is such as to show that they have no real acquaintance with him.

Being abominable - In their conduct. The word here used - βδελυκτοὶ bdeluktoi - occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It means that which is detestable, or to be held in abhorrence.

And disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate - Margin, "void of judgment." On the word here used - ἀδοκίμος adokimos - see the Romans 1:28 note; 2 Corinthians 13:5 note. It means here that in reference to everything that was good, their conduct was such that it could not be approved, or deserved disapprobation. It was for this reason; from the character of the people of the island of Crete, and of those who claimed to be teachers there enforcing the obligation of the Mosaic law, that it was so important for Titus to exercise special care in introducing men into the ministry, and in completing the arrangements contemplated in the organization of the churches there. Yet is this character confined to them? Are there none now who profess that they know God, but in works deny him; whose conduct is such that it ought to be abhorred; who are disobedient to the plain commands of God, and whose character in respect to all that pertains to true piety is to be disapproved by the truly pious, and will be by God at the last day? Alas, taking the church at large, there are many such, and the fact that there are such persons is the grand hindrance to the triumphs of religion on the earth. "The way to heaven is blocked up by dead professors of religion."

Tellastory said:

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance,....

So what is going on here? Read on as Paul gives an example of how a believer can err from the truth and have his faith overthrown where he does not believe any more and yet Jesus Christ still abides in him.

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It is a faithful saying - Or, rather, that which he was about to say was worthy of entire credence and profound attention; see the notes at 1 Timothy 1:15. The object is to encourage Timothy to bear trials by the hope of salvation.

For if we be dead with him - see the notes at Romans 6:8.

We shall also live with him - This was a sort of maxim, or a settled point, which is often referred to in the Bible; see the Romans 6:3-5 notes; John 11:25 note; 1 Thessalonians 4:14 note.

Tellastory said:

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

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Who concerning the truth have erred - To what extent they had erred is unknown. Paul mentions only one point - that pertaining to the resurrection; but says that this was like a gangrene. It would certainly, unless checked, destroy all the other doctrines of religion. No man can safely hold a single error, any more than he can safely have one part of his body in a state of mortification.

Saying that the resurrection is past already - It is not known in what form they held this opinion. It may have been, as Augustine supposes, that they taught that there was no resurrection but that which occurs in the soul when it is recovered from the death of sin, and made to live anew. Or it may be that they held that those who had died had experienced all the resurrection which they ever would, by passing into another state, and receiving at death a spiritual body fitted to their mode of being in the heavenly world. Whatever was the form of the opinion, the apostle regarded it as a most dangerous error, for just views of the resurrection undoubtedly lie at the foundation of correct apprehensions of the Christian system; compare the notes at 1 Corinthians 15:12-19.

And overthrow the faith of some - That is, on this point, and as would appear on all the correlative subjects of Christian belief; compare 1 Timothy 1:19-20.

Tellastory said:

OSAS is false, but not every believer will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.

Esau weeping for losing his birthright for a meal is akin to those left behind in their weeping & gnashing of teeth which is why we read about God wiping the tears from the eyes of those saints coming out of the great tribulation because they need a miracle from Him to get past that loss.

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If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour - If a man "cleanse" or "purify" himself; compare the notes on John 15:2. The word "these" refers, here, to the persons represented by the vessels of wood and of earth - the vessels made to dishonor, as mentioned in the previous verse 2 Timothy 2:20. The idea is, that if one would preserve himself from the corrupting influence of such men, he would be fitted to be a vessel of honor, or to be employed in the most useful and honorable service in the cause of his Master. On the word "vessel," see the notes at Acts 9:15.

And meet for the master's use - Suitable to be employed by the Lord Jesus in promoting his work on earth.

Tellastory said:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So which last day will a saint rise on? It depends on him looking to Jesus as their Good Shepherd for help to abide in Him as His disciples in discerning by the KJV Bible & departing from inqiuity by His grace & by His help in getting ready to go.

Any saint, regardless of the day he is risen on; whethor it be the pre trib rapture or at the end of the great tribulation or at the end of the milleniel reign of Christ, it will be to him, his last day wherein God is keeping His word.

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Father's will - His purpose; desire; intention. As this is the Father's will, and Jesus came to execute his will, we have the highest security that it will be done. God's will is always right, and he has power to execute it. Jesus was always faithful, and all power was given to him in heaven and on earth, and he will therefore most certainly accomplish the will of God.

Of all which - That is, of every one who believes on him, or of all who become Christians. See John 6:37.

I should lose nothing - Literally, "I should not destroy." He affirms here that he will keep it to life eternal; that, thought the Christian will die, and his body return to corruption, yet he will not be destroyed. The Redeemer will watch over him, though in his grave, and keep him to the resurrection of the just. This is affirmed of all who are given to him by the Father; or, as in the next verse, "Everyone that believeth on him shall have everlasting life."

At the last day - At the day of judgment. The Jews supposed that the righteous would be raised up at the appearing of the Messiah. See Lightfoot. Jesus directs them to a future resurrection, and declares to them that they will be raised at the last day - the day of judgment. It is also supposed and affirmed by some Jewish writers that they did not believe that the wicked would be raised. Hence, to speak of being raised up in the last day was the same as to say that one was righteous, or it was spoken of as the special privilege of the righteous. In accordance with this, Paul says, "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead," Philippians 3:11.

Tellastory said:

Just so you know, brother, Luke 13:23 is not talking about being saved from hell, but being saved from what is coming on the earth. Read on as Jesus is talking about a sitting down with O.T. saints at the Marriage Supper.

Luke 13: 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

So Jesus began speaking about how punishment will be dished out on the unrepentant saints on earth.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Jesus did not say that the lord of that servant ceased to be lord of that servant as you will note how even after being cut asunder & left behind to face the fire coming on the earth, that servant of His was getting stripes.

The prophesy about the New Covenant in Psalm 89 should shed some light on His promise on those left behind.

Psalm 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

This is the testimony of the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name, for those unrepentant saints that get left behind at the pre trib rapture event in becoming vessels unto dishonour in His House.

This is why it is important to live by faith in Him as our Good Shepherd for the help we need to be found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples to be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honour in His House for the Marriage Supper which is to be held in His honour as this is to His glory in bringing us Home as our Good Shepherd as well as our Saviour.

We do run that race by the grace of God as well as we rest in Him & all His promises to us in being our Good Shepherd to help us abide in Him & His words as kept in the KJV only in living as His disciples.

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Many people fervently believe that once saved, they can never lose their salvation. I pray that those who do believe it will read the following with an open heart and an open mind. Above all, I urge every reader to check each Scripture presented – and then check the context that the Scriptures are quoted in by reading at least ten verses before and ten verses after.

I sincerely believe the ‘once saved always saved’ concept to be wrong. The implication that once someone becomes a ‘real’ Christian (a definition would be handy) they are saved and that they can’t backslide or commit a sin which would rob them of that inheritance.

From my experience, Christians can sin and they often do sin but to believe that a Christian can live any way he or she likes, and still be saved, is dangerous. Some argue that a ‘real’ Christian wouldn’t commit these sins and it is the ‘almost Christians’ who fall foul of this type of entrapment from the enemy. I believe that would be wrong too. Committed Christians sin for all sorts of reasons and we are only saved by God’s amazing Grace, not our level of commitment. God knows our true heart!

If a Christian sins maliciously (deliberately breaks laws for his or her own advantage – say purchasing goods known, or strongly suspected, of being stolen) that is quite different from accidentally sinning – something we all do constantly.

God knows our true intention. We might be able to fool a police officer that we sinned accidentally, but God knows the real truth. I believe that if we deliberately go against the direction given by Jesus (who, you will remember, said to obey the laws of the land) then we must suffer the consequences – and that might mean the loss of eternal life. At least our Judge, while tough, is fair and understanding!