Once again, for the newcomers, 1000 is more often symbolic than literal

[ewq1938]

But that doesn't stop me repeating the text you avoided.

A translation is not evidence of anything. In the Greek NT chilioi G5507 has one meaning, exactly 1000 of something.

 

[claninja]

The word chilia is a “nominative and accusative plural neuter” of chilioi, which is the masculine form of this adjective. Both “-a” and “-oi” are plural endings in the Greek language. Greek is an inflected language in which adjectives have to match the nouns they modify in gender and number. In the case before us, the word chilia precedes the plural noun “years,” thus the adjective “thousand” has to be plural because its meaning is inherently plural.

To insist on a literal rendering, this word needs prefixed by a number to denote exact value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number precedes the word chilia thus leaving it indefinite.

i don’t really understand your argument. Not sure how you are getting it to mean indefinite.

 

[eclipsenow]

A translation is not evidence of anything. In the Greek NT chilioi G5507 has one meaning, exactly 1000 of something.

And 7 has one meaning, 7?
Therefore Jesus has 7 eyes and 7 horns?
According to your own argument that's just how Greek works.

Dear oh dear. The Scofield bible really did mess up American theology for generations. Meanwhile real Bible Scholars like Dr Paul Barnett are busy getting on explaining how Revelation has been relevant and encouraging for all Christians for the last few thousand years. Put bluntly, it's not ABOUT us, but ABOUT the horrendous Roman persecution about to hit John's generation. He wrote to them, about them, for the time is near, and he said he shared in their tribulations! (Chapter 1). Then, once we understand that context - it's a sermon about suffering - we have a clue. We can apply it to our situation - just as we might understand any epistle etc.

Reading Revelation literally is like trying to read Ancient Hieroglyphs without a translator. What's the code?

In this case the code is Jewish number symbolism - the theological importance of various numbers - and various OT symbols and how John applied them to his day.

There are many places one can learn more about these numbers, but Dr Paul Barnett is a great start and here is his blog page on numbers. http://paulbarnett.info/tag/understanding-revelation/

6 is the number of man (the day we were created on, the days of the week we work.)
7 = perfection, the fullness of time, God's control over history. Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns = perfect knowledge and perfect power.

3.5 means a limited time or short period. These bad things will break out now and then but in God's mercy he limits the time in which this judgement is handed out. It's the difference between knowing there will be wars - and being misled that something as bad as WW2 might drag on forever. So the number 3.5 is a ratio (half of 7) and means a limited period of catastrophe. But there's just nothing literal about it.

12 being the tribes of Israel, and 12 * 12 = 144 being the tribes multiplied by the Apostles multiplied by "a gazillion" (1000) - see below.

1000 being 'a very large number, a gazillion' - Psalm 50 - "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." If the thousand here is literal, what about the other millions of hills on earth? Is God really only in charge of 0.001% off the hills?

 

[ewq1938]

And 7 has one meaning, 7?
Therefore Jesus has 7 eyes and 7 horns?

Yes that's how many John was shown. What would you say to someone who claimed, "It isn't 7 eyes and horns, it's 700!"

3.5 means a limited time or short period.

No, it means 3 and a half of something.

12 being the tribes of Israel, and 12 * 12 = 144 being the tribes multiplied by the Apostles multiplied by "a gazillion" (1000) - see below.

12 tribes is just that, 12 tribes. Not 24 tribes, not 1000 tribes, just 12. 12,000 people from each tribe is exactly 12k.

1000 being 'a very large number, a gazillion'

No, a thousand of something is still a thousand of something. If you have a thousand dollars, does that means you have a "gazillion"? No.

 

[Hammster]

I am actually using the Greek language to prove what "thousand" of something means and does not mean.



Not in the Greek language. The word John used is a word that means exactly a thousand of something. It can be years, men, rocks, anything.





That's a false assumption. Revelation uses exact numbers all the time:

Revelation 7:4

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:



Revelation 7:5

from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,



Revelation 7:6

from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,



Revelation 7:7

from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,



Revelation 7:8

from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.



Revelation 11:13

And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.



Revelation 12:6

Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.




Revelation 14:1

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.



Revelation 14:3

And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.



Revelation 20:2

And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;



Revelation 20:3

and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.



Revelation 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.



Revelation 20:5

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.



Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.



Revelation 20:7

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,






The 144k are exactly that many people, 144,000...12k from each tribe. I mean, how much more exact can you get?

On what basis can you say that any of those numbers are exact?

 

[eclipsenow]

Hi Hammster,
Because they're Greek, or something....
(I hear you!)

I'm mean I'm happy to grant that the various Greek words translate as 7, 3.5, and 1000.

But what does the hermeneutics say?
That is - what does the biblical and historical context make of those numbers?
How were they used by the original culture?
What evidence do we have that they were read literally or figuratively?

This is vastly different to looking up Strong's and just thumping your fist on the table and saying "WELL THE TEXT SAYS 1000 SO IT'S A THOUSAND!" This is about hermeneutics, and I'm just not hearing any from the discussion above.

I have provided so many verses where 1000 is a picture of either 'a gazillion' or even forever. What have they done? Thump the table. Again, and again, and again. Next? Can we have some new evidence or argument, please?

 

[ewq1938]

On what basis can you say that any of those numbers are exact?

I explained it in my original post. There is only one word and way to suggest an unknown thousand of something but it's using a different word, not chilioi.

 

[Hammster]

I explained it in my original post. There is only one word and way to suggest an unknown thousand of something but it's using a different word, not chilioi.

Is there any sense that the word could be used symbolically, like a bunch of other words in Revelation? In Revelation 13:14, we have the word “beast”. The definition is “dangerous animal”. Using your hermeneutic, there’s no way for that to mean a man or government because if that’s what John meant to convey, he would have used a different word.

 

[ewq1938]

Is there any sense that the word could be used symbolically, like a bunch of other words in Revelation?

Not a number unless it's used twice like here:

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

 

[Hammster]

Not a number unless it's used twice like here:

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

But why not?

 

[eclipsenow]

I explained it in my original post. There is only one word and way to suggest an unknown thousand of something but it's using a different word, not chilioi.

I have trouble with that because it's also used in Peter to compare the different ways God sees time.
Here it is - chilia.

2 Peter 3:8 Adj-NNP
GRK: Κυρίῳ ὡς χίλια ἔτη καὶ
NAS: is like a thousand years,
KJV: the Lord as a thousand years, and
INT: Lord [is] as a thousand years and

This verse is not some code about 'days' being millennia so we can know exactly when the Lord is going to return. That's a very strange reading!

This verse is instead pastoral - expressing theological truths to comfort God's people. It's not a dry code about timetables and dates!

It's a verse of comfort about how important we are to God!

It shows us a God that can both view the overarching grand progress of history - all gazillion years of it - down to zoom in and study each day like he had the whole of eternity to concentrate on it! In other words, when we pray, we do not need to worry that God is 'too busy' to hear us. He can concentrate on my individual prayer as if I was the only person in the whole world - as if he had a gazillion years to listen to just me?

How am I to live in the end times? I'm to live a holy life, because rather than sitting around constructing end-times-tables all day every day, the Lord will return like a thief! (2 Peter 3:10). This seems like a STRANGE thing to write if Peter had just announced some sort of secret decoding device to understand when the Lord would return!

The ultimate irony is that the very chapter futurists want to turn into some kind of code to decipher their timetables about days and millennia, this chapter reasserts that we *cannot* know when the Lord will return! God can focus on each day as if he had a 'gazillion' years to do so - so how should we live?

"11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

We are to work, and live constructive and godly lives. Not sit around all day navel gazing on things that this very passage says are IMPOSSIBLE for us to know!

 

[ewq1938]

But why not?

It just isn't used that way. Every language is unique. Hebrew clearly uses a word for thousand in a symbolic way but Greek doesn't, at least when a word is used once. I showed how Greek uses a word twice to indicate an unknown number.

 

[ewq1938]

I have trouble with that because it's also used in Peter to compare the different ways God sees time.

But he uses two exact time periods. The thousand years is a thousand years years, not ten thousand. The day is a day, not ten days.

 

[Hammster]

It just isn't used that way. Every language is unique. Hebrew clearly uses a word for thousand in a symbolic way but Greek doesn't, at least when a word is used once. I showed how Greek uses a word twice to indicate an unknown number.

I’m not saying that it’s not normally used that way. “Beast” is normally referring to an animal. And with all of the references to the OT, and it’s use of 1000, it’s not a stretch to think that John, writing in Greek, would it use it in a similar fashion.

So let me ask you this. Is there any way that it could be used metaphorically or symbolically?

 

[sovereigngrace]

But he uses two exact time periods. The thousand years is a thousand years years, not ten thousand. The day is a day, not ten days.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

 

[ewq1938]

I’m not saying that it’s not normally used that way. “Beast” is normally referring to an animal. And with all of the references to the OT, and it’s use of 1000, it’s not a stretch to think that John, writing in Greek, would it use it in a similar fashion.

So let me ask you this. Is there any way that it could be used metaphorically or symbolically?

I think the better question is has any number (cardinal number of something) in the NT Greek manuscripts ever been used metaphorically or symbolically? I have never seen any. Everytime a cardinal number of something is used, it's exactly that number. Like I said, 1260 is literally the word for exactly 1000 and the words/numbers for 260. The Greeks are known to have been advanced mathematicians and scientists. It makes sense that they did not have figurative uses for their numbers.

 

[ewq1938]

Those are from a different culture, language and religion. They have nothing to do with Greek numbers.

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

 

[Hammster]

I think the better question is has any number (cardinal number of something) in the NT Greek manuscripts ever been used metaphorically or symbolically? I have never seen any. Everytime a cardinal number of something is used, it's exactly that number. Like I said, 1260 is literally the word for exactly 1000 and the words/numbers for 260. The Greeks are known to have been advanced mathematicians and scientists. It makes sense that they did not have figurative uses for their numbers.

Actually, the better question is the one I asked.

 

[eclipsenow]

It just isn't used that way. Every language is unique.

But the Hebrew culture uses the NUMBER 1000 figuratively when the context dictates it. This is apocalyptic literature - sort of the "Superhero Comic Book" of the ancient world - full of archetypal images and heroes we are meant to cheer on and villains to boo. It's loaded with symbolic images, animals, numbers, colours, and metaphors. It plays "compare and contrast" - the mark of the beast and what it does, and the mark of God given to believers foreheads in heaven. The two cities, Babylon and New Jerusalem. Compare and contrast. Boo and cheer.

It uses the Greek number for 7 to describe Jesus having 7 horns and eyes. The number is 7, agreed. But what does this mean?

You have avoided this point.

3.5 is exactly half of the perfect number 7 - the number of the day God rested in creation. But what does this mean? You've avoided this point.

Hebrew clearly uses a word for thousand in a symbolic way but Greek doesn't, at least when a word is used once.

Why? Who says? I know a few Phd theologians PERSONALLY who disagree with this - who have PUBLISHED peer-reviewed work on this.

I showed how Greek uses a word twice to indicate an unknown number.

Really? Where did you 'show' this?

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, the better question is the one I asked.

The answer would be no, not from someone who knows biblical Greek properly.

The main evidences are:

1. There are no NT examples of chilioi meaning more or less than exactly a thousand.
2. It still means exactly a thousand when paired with other numbers.
3. It's uses in the bible are of exactly a thousand every single time it appears.
4. When an unknown amount is used, the word used is G5505 chilias, and it is used twice in a row.
5. G5507 chilioi is never used in this double fashion.
6. The double appearance of G5505 chilias is not found in Revelation 20.

I think this is a strong case that Revelation 20's "thousand years" is exactly a thousand years. There is no evidence in the NT that this is a longer period of time.