Once again, for the newcomers, 1000 is more often symbolic than literal

[ewq1938]

Not all are literal, especially the 144,000. Neither are the 24 elders.

I don't agree. The 144k are 144k people, and the 24 Elders are 24 elders.

 

[Hammster]

How many times is it used figuratively VS. how many times it is exact?

I’m not going to post all of that. But in quite a few cases, any derivative of 1000 isn’t exact. Like the 7000 remnant. There is no reason to believe it was an exact amount.

 

[Hammster]

I don't agree. The 144k are 144k people, and the 24 Elders are 24 elders.

Well, they aren’t. And the beast isn’t really a beast, and the dragon isn’t really a dragon.

 

[ewq1938]

I’m not going to post all of that. But in quite a few cases, any derivative of 1000 isn’t exact.

Ok, just post those then. I have a list of where thousand is not figurative that I can post to compare.

Like the 7000 remnant. There is no reason to believe it was an exact amount.

There's no reason to not accept it as exact.

 

[ewq1938]

And the beast isn’t really a beast, and the dragon isn’t really a dragon.

Everyone knows that. It's not the same comparison. Metaphors and figurative language is easy to spot. Numbers are easy to spot as literal. Rarely are they used figuratively, and only in the OT Hebrew. Not once in Greek.

 

[Hammster]

Everyone knows that. It's not the same comparison. Metaphors and figurative language is easy to spot. Numbers are easy to spot as literal. Rarely are they used figuratively, and only in the OT Hebrew. Not once in Greek.

Actually, quite a few times in the NT are numbers used in a non-specific way. Not to mention, as you pointed out, God wrote it. He used 1000 to mean a large number throughout His writings.

 

[eclipsenow]

That doesn't mean the language he wants something in is going to change and mimic another language. There is a reason God inspired John to use Greek and not any other language for Revelation. The thousand years is exactly that long according to Greek cardinal numbers. There is zero evidence for a symbolic meaning.

You just keep telling yourself that!

But the reality is John knew his Old Testament, and knew exactly what he was referencing when he decided to open in apocalyptic symbolism.

Psalm 50 "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere;

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."

Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"

Which is it? FOREVER or only 40,000 years (generation * 1000)?

 

[smittymatt]

You just keep telling yourself that!

But the reality is John knew his Old Testament, and knew exactly what he was referencing when he decided to open in apocalyptic symbolism.

Psalm 50 "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere;

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."

Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"

Which is it? FOREVER or only 40,000 years (generation * 1000)?

As much as I disagree with you on climate change, I agree with your eschatology.

 

[claninja]

You just keep telling yourself that!

But the reality is John knew his Old Testament, and knew exactly what he was referencing when he decided to open in apocalyptic symbolism.

Psalm 50 "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"

Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere;

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."

Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"

Which is it? FOREVER or only 40,000 years (generation * 1000)?

I don’t necessarily agree that john “decided” to open in apocalyptic symbolism, I would argue more that he wrote down a vision that was shown to him.

But back to your point:

John saw Satan locked in the pit “for a thousand years”. John also saw the saints reigning with Christ “for a thousand years”. This “thousand years” does come to fulfillment in vs 7 , so right off the bat we know
It’s not “forever” and therefore doesn’t seem to be used in the same way as psalm 105:8

 

[sovereigngrace]

It’s not “occasionally”. It’s quite a bit. And like all of the other OT references in Revelation, there’s no reason to think the audience wouldn’t automatically go there. And again, I can use the same argument for “beast” or “dragon” as you use for 1000.

In your opinion.

Re the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12, is that sixty minutes?

 

[Hammster]

In your opinion. You could also apply that same reasoning to the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

Most of Rev is symbolism.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Most of Rev is symbolism.

Agreed!

 

[jgr]

I don't agree. The 144k are 144k people, and the 24 Elders are 24 elders.

144,000.

A profoundly spiritual number.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

• Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

• Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[ewq1938]

144,000.

A profoundly spiritual number.

No, it's a profoundly literal number even going as far as to choose exactly 12,000 from one of each of 12 tribes, also named.

 

[Hammster]

No, it's a profoundly literal number even going as far as to choose exactly 12,000 from one of each of 12 tribes, also named.

It doesn’t fit with the way Revelation is written, though.

 

[jgr]

No, it's a profoundly literal number even going as far as to choose exactly 12,000 from one of each of 12 tribes, also named.

It is a profoundly spiritual number that recognizes, extols, glorifies, and proclaims the reality of Christ, His Work, and the entire host of all of His faithful obedient saints through all of the ages.

 

[ewq1938]

It is a profoundly spiritual number that recognizes, extols, glorifies, and proclaims the reality of Christ, His Work, and the entire host of all of His faithful obedient saints through all of the ages.

It's presented as a literal number of people, only males from Israel down to the very tribe. That's not the Church which is not based upon the tribes of Israel. Only Christians males from the tribes of Israel can be part of the 144k.

 

[Hammster]

It's presented as a literal number of people, only males from Israel down to the very tribe. That's not the Church which is not based upon the tribes of Israel. Only Christians males from the tribes of Israel can be part of the 144k.

And again, why is this literal, and other verses symbolic?

 

[jgr]

It's presented as a literal number of people, only males from Israel down to the very tribe. That's not the Church which is not based upon the tribes of Israel. Only Christians males from the tribes of Israel can be part of the 144k.

It is a profoundly spiritual number which recognizes that the true faithful obedient Israel of the saints of God was found within the Israelite nation at large, and comprised the Church of the Old Testament.

 

[ewq1938]

And again, why is this literal, and other verses symbolic?

It's obviously literal. God is telling us about a certain group pf people, 12k from each of 12 tribes. How can that be figurative? How can they represent a church of Israelites and Gentiles?

Symbolic verses are easy to identify because they use well known figurative language like dragons and multi-headed beasts. That cannot be applied to non-symbolic things like numbers and how many trumpets or vials there are. It should not be argued that 7 trumpets means more than 7, or 7 eyes are more than 7 etc. Doing that to a thousand of something, 7 of something or 144k of something changes the text and that's can lead to error.