Once again, for the newcomers, 1000 is more often symbolic than literal

[Hammster]

It's obviously literal. God is telling us about a certain group pf people, 12k from each of 12 tribes. How can that be figurative? How can they represent a church of Israelites and Gentiles?

Symbolic verses are easy to identify because they use well known figurative language like dragons and multi-headed beasts. That cannot be applied to non-symbolic things like numbers and how many trumpets or vials there are. It should not be argued that 7 trumpets means more than 7, or 7 eyes are more than 7 etc. Doing that to a thousand of something, 7 of something or 144k of something changes the text and that's can lead to error.

Is 7 eyes literal, or symbolic?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

On what basis can you say that any of those numbers are exact?

Apparently, since they are written in Greek that means they are literal. That seems to be the argument being made. I'm seeing some of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on any topic in this thread.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I think the better question is has any number (cardinal number of something) in the NT Greek manuscripts ever been used metaphorically or symbolically? I have never seen any. Everytime a cardinal number of something is used, it's exactly that number. Like I said, 1260 is literally the word for exactly 1000 and the words/numbers for 260. The Greeks are known to have been advanced mathematicians and scientists. It makes sense that they did not have figurative uses for their numbers.

This is scripture! Greek mathematicians and scientists have absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of scripture that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Come on.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The answer would be no, not from someone who knows biblical Greek properly.

The main evidences are:

1. There are no NT examples of chilioi meaning more or less than exactly a thousand.
2. It still means exactly a thousand when paired with other numbers.
3. It's uses in the bible are of exactly a thousand every single time it appears.
4. When an unknown amount is used, the word used is G5505 chilias, and it is used twice in a row.
5. G5507 chilioi is never used in this double fashion.
6. The double appearance of G5505 chilias is not found in Revelation 20.

I think this is a strong case that Revelation 20's "thousand years" is exactly a thousand years. There is no evidence in the NT that this is a longer period of time.

I'd say the fact that the NT teaches that Christ began to reign almost 2,000 years ago (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:18-22) is very strong evidence that it's a longer period of time than 1,000 years.

All numbers in Revelation are literal and exact.

42 months is 42 months.
144,000 is 144,000.
3 and a half days is 3 and a half days.
7 seals are 7 seals.
7 trumpets are 7 trumpets.
7 vials are 7 vials.
24 elders are 24 elders.
1260 days is 1260 days.
And yes, a thousand years is a thousand years.

Is this referring to a literal 1,000 generations?

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

 

[ewq1938]

Is 7 eyes literal, or symbolic?

Symbolic but John saw exactly 7 of them just as he saw exactly 10 horns on a beast with horns being figurative of Kings.

 

[ewq1938]

I'd say the fact that the NT teaches that Christ began to reign almost 2,000 years ago (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:18-22) is very strong evidence that it's a longer period of time than 1,000 years.

Is this referring to a literal 1,000 generations?

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

It could be. At some point Israel committed adultery with false gods and they were divorced. That may have happened at the thousand generation.

This is a different language so it isn't related to how Greek numbers are used. In Greek, the way God expresses an unknown amount of thousand, the word is used twice in a row like this:

Rev_5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

When it is singular it means exactly a thousand.

 

[Hammster]

Symbolic but John saw exactly 7 of them just as he saw exactly 10 horns on a beast with horns being figurative of Kings.

You don’t know that. You have to assume. The wording, if he’s being literal, would really make Revelation hard to understand.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You don’t know that. You have to assume. The wording, if he’s being literal, would really make Revelation hard to understand.

Actually, the literal number makes it easier to recognize its fulfillment in ancient history.

 

[Hammster]

Actually, the literal number makes it easier to recognize its fulfillment in ancient history.

Just because it’s number doesn’t make it literal.

 

[One Son]

Actually, the literal number makes it easier to recognize its fulfillment in ancient history.

Hi, good post.


Deut.7:9

International Standard Version


Know that the LORD your God is God, the trusted God who faithfully keeps his covenant to the thousandth generation of those who love him and obey his commands.




Deuteronomy 7:9 ►

Text Analysis

Go to Parallel Hebrew

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology

3045 [e] וְיָ֣דַעְתָּ֔

wə-yā-ḏa‘-tā, Therefore know Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-2ms

3588 [e] כִּֽי־

kî- that Conj

3068 [e] יְהוָ֥ה

Yah-weh Yahweh N-proper-ms

430 [e] אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ

’ĕ-lō-he-ḵā your God N-mpc | 2ms

1931 [e] ה֣וּא

hū He Pro-3ms

430 [e] הָֽאֱלֹהִ֑ים

hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm; [is] God Art | N-mp

410 [e] הָאֵל֙

hā-’êl God Art | N-ms

539 [e] הַֽנֶּאֱמָ֔ן

han-ne-’ĕ-mān, the faithful Art | V-Nifal-Prtcpl-ms

8104 [e] שֹׁמֵ֧ר

šō-mêr who keeps V-Qal-Prtcpl-ms

1285 [e] הַבְּרִ֣ית

hab-bə-rîṯ covenant Art | N-fs

2617 [e] וְהַחֶ֗סֶד

wə-ha-ḥe-seḏ, and mercy Conj-w, Art | N-ms

157 [e] לְאֹהֲבָ֛יו

lə-’ō-hă-ḇāw with those who love Him Prep-l | V-Qal-Prtcpl-mpc | 3ms

8104 [e] וּלְשֹׁמְרֵ֥י

ū-lə-šō-mə-rê and keep Conj-w, Prep-l | V-Qal-Prtcpl-mpc

[מצותו]

[miṣ-wō-ṯōw - Noun - feminine plural construct :: third person masculine singular N-fpc | 3ms



ḵ]

4687 [e] (מִצְוֺתָ֖יו)

(miṣ-wō-ṯāw His commandments N-fpc | 3ms



q)

505 [e] לְאֶ֥לֶף

lə-’e-lep̄ for thousand Prep-l | Number-msc

1755 [e] דּֽוֹר׃

dō-wr. a generations N-ms *


generation is singular.





Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Just because it’s number doesn’t make it literal.

In the case of the Revelation 13 Roman Sea Beast with 10 horns, that really was 10 successive, crowned Roman emperors. A literal number.

Also, in the case of Revelation 17's other different Judean Scarlet Beast in the wilderness, that Beast had 10 horns with no crowns that simultaneously had power as if they were kings for only one brief "hour" along with the Scarlet Beast. That really was a literal number of 10 men who were selected in Jerusalem in AD 66 as governors for the Jewish Roman war. Josephus named all ten of those men who were simultaneously given power over various districts in order to prepare each of them for the inevitable conflict with the Romans.

Also, that Judean Scarlet Beast had a literal number of 7 heads interpreted as mountains upon which the city of Jerusalem was situated. Ditto for the 7 literal heads as mountains which the Roman Sea Beast sat upon.

Also, that was a literal number of 12 apostles that composed the symbolic foundation of the spiritual New Jerusalem. Symbolically reflective of the 12 tribes of Israel, since those 12 apostles were seated on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in Jerusalem in the days of the early Jerusalem church.

Also, that was a literal number of 12 particular listed tribes of Israel from which that total number of 144,000 Jewish First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 saints originated from. The symbolic value of a thousand represented God's spiritual battle force present in those days, similar to ancient Israel's military division of a thousand with a captain over it - such as David had assigned to him by Saul.

Also, that was a literal 20,000 (NOT 200 million) Idumean horsemen which came to Jerusalem under a literal four commanders which Josephus named for us. John said he heard the number, so that we wouldn't mistake that this was a literal amount of horsemen he was writing about. Which two myriads (20,000) was a number symbolizing God's battle strength of two myriads of the chariots of God.

It was also a literal number of 7 actual churches in Asia which John named and to which he addressed individual messages. Which also represented the symbolic completeness of the first-century churches that John was addressing then.

A literal thousand-year millennium ended in AD 33 with Christ's First resurrection and that "remnant of the dead" which were the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected 144,000 First-fruits saints which came to life again that same day that Christ the First-fruits arose.

A literal amount of 666 years composed the ancient biography of the Sea Beast as of the time of John's writing Revelation.

Etc., etc., etc. Literal numbers, many times with symbolic significance as well.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Hi, good post.


Deut.7:9

International Standard Version


Know that the LORD your God is God, the trusted God who faithfully keeps his covenant to the thousandth generation of those who love him and obey his commands.




Deuteronomy 7:9 ►

Text Analysis

Go to Parallel Hebrew

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology

3045 [e] וְיָ֣דַעְתָּ֔

wə-yā-ḏa‘-tā, Therefore know Conj-w | V-Qal-ConjPerf-2ms

3588 [e] כִּֽי־

kî- that Conj

3068 [e] יְהוָ֥ה

Yah-weh Yahweh N-proper-ms

430 [e] אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ

’ĕ-lō-he-ḵā your God N-mpc | 2ms

1931 [e] ה֣וּא

hū He Pro-3ms

430 [e] הָֽאֱלֹהִ֑ים

hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm; [is] God Art | N-mp

410 [e] הָאֵל֙

hā-’êl God Art | N-ms

539 [e] הַֽנֶּאֱמָ֔ן

han-ne-’ĕ-mān, the faithful Art | V-Nifal-Prtcpl-ms

8104 [e] שֹׁמֵ֧ר

šō-mêr who keeps V-Qal-Prtcpl-ms

1285 [e] הַבְּרִ֣ית

hab-bə-rîṯ covenant Art | N-fs

2617 [e] וְהַחֶ֗סֶד

wə-ha-ḥe-seḏ, and mercy Conj-w, Art | N-ms

157 [e] לְאֹהֲבָ֛יו

lə-’ō-hă-ḇāw with those who love Him Prep-l | V-Qal-Prtcpl-mpc | 3ms

8104 [e] וּלְשֹׁמְרֵ֥י

ū-lə-šō-mə-rê and keep Conj-w, Prep-l | V-Qal-Prtcpl-mpc

[מצותו]

[miṣ-wō-ṯōw - Noun - feminine plural construct :: third person masculine singular N-fpc | 3ms



ḵ]

4687 [e] (מִצְוֺתָ֖יו)

(miṣ-wō-ṯāw His commandments N-fpc | 3ms



q)

505 [e] לְאֶ֥לֶף

lə-’e-lep̄ for thousand Prep-l | Number-msc

1755 [e] דּֽוֹר׃

dō-wr. a generations N-ms *


generation is singular.





Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

So you do not believe the Lord is coming any time soon? Luke accurately traces the exact direct generational lineage from Adam to Christ in Luke 3:23-38, and arrives at 76 generations. Moreover, just over 2,000 years have now elapsed from Christ to our present day. Therefore, allowing approximately for a 40-year generation (2000 divided by 40), we have only reached an additional 50 generations today. We have consequently only merely exhausted around 126 generations of the said 1,000 generations, roughly 874 short of the precise 1000 generations mark, which the literalists would have us believe.

Of course, the Spirit of God does not in the slightest speak in vain or advance a lie. The generational figure simply refers to the eternal promise and extent of His mercies. A thousand generations here thus means all.

Moses again employs ‘a thousand’ in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, “Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.”

This reading expressly reveals that God is a covenant keeping God. Moses is specifically testifying to the unfailing faithfulness of God and to the continuous bountiful mercies He bestows upon His people. Psalm 119:90 says, “Thy faithfulness is unto all generations.” He is here, in some way, articulating the reality of His perpetual blessings and the enormity of His love towards His elect. The term “a thousand” is here used as an indeterminate number, evidently indicating all generations. Psalm 89:3-4 says, “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations.”

A thousand generations is therefore simply used here as a figure or symbol to represent all generations, it unquestionably cannot be limited to, or specifically relate to, a fixed number. This is highlighted when we discover the small amount of generations that have hitherto passed in this world.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How many times is it used figuratively VS. how many times it is exact?

I like what John Metcalfe says: “One reads of a thousand hills, a thousand vines, a thousand Philistines, a thousand children of Bigvai, a thousand Ammonites, a thousand spears, a thousand camels, a thousand horses, a thousand chariots, a thousand judges, a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, but never of a thousand years reign, no, not from Genesis to Malachi.”

And continues, “One can discover a thousand shields for a thousand Israelites, a thousand cubits and a thousand footmen to traverse them, a thousand talents and a thousand oxen to carry them, a thousand silver pieces and a thousand Edomites to covet them, a thousand baths and a thousand men to bathe in them, but what no one can find, no, not one of a thousand, is a thousand years reign at the end of time with the second coming of Christ preceding this millennial invention.”

 

[3 Resurrections]

It is not Christ's reign that is limited to the thousand years. The second person of the Trinity has always reigned, and will always reign in eternity. The emphasis instead for the Revelation 20 millennium is on the bound condition of Satan for that limited period of a literal thousand years. The saints shared in Christ's continuous, perpetual reign during that literal thousand-year period when Satan was bound.

 

[ewq1938]

It is not Christ's reign that is limited to the thousand years. The second person of the Trinity has always reigned, and will always reign in eternity. The emphasis instead for the Revelation 20 millennium is on the bound condition of Satan for that limited period of a literal thousand years. The saints shared in Christ's continuous, perpetual reign during that literal thousand-year period when Satan was bound.

Correct. It is the rod of iron reign over the nations which is limited, not Christ's reign or Kingdom.

 

[DavidPT]

A thousand generations is therefore simply used here as a figure or symbol to represent all generations, it unquestionably cannot be limited to, or specifically relate to, a fixed number. This is highlighted when we discover the small amount of generations that have hitherto passed in this world.

Look at your argument, though. Let's see you apply that the same way to the thousand years, that it means all years the same way that a thousand generations mean all generations. A thousand years could never mean all years and you know it. The thousand years have a beginning and an ending, therefore using an example involving generations is not comparable to something involving years in the same way.

How many years has there been thus far, meaning since the beginning of time? Are the thousand years meaning everyone of those years since the beginning of time? Of course not.

The only way to reasonably prove that a thousand years are not meaning a literal thousand years is by providing examples from the OT and NT where a number is followed by years, and that it is not literally meaning the amount of years specified, thus proving when a number is followed by years, it is not always literally meaning the amount of years specified. When are any of you ever going to get around to doing that? You are comparing to things not comparable, not to things comparable. While a thousand generations can mean all generations, and a thousand hills can mean every single hill, a thousand years can never mean every single year. But I suspect some of you still don't get it.

 

[Hammster]

It is not Christ's reign that is limited to the thousand years. The second person of the Trinity has always reigned, and will always reign in eternity. The emphasis instead for the Revelation 20 millennium is on the bound condition of Satan for that limited period of a literal thousand years. The saints shared in Christ's continuous, perpetual reign during that literal thousand-year period when Satan was bound.

Actually, He hasn’t always reigned, and will not always reign. When He said that all authority had been given to Him, that’s what He meant. And when Paul said that Jesus will hand over the kingdom to the Father at the end, he meant that.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Actually, He hasn’t always reigned, and will not always reign. When He said that all authority had been given to Him, that’s what He meant. And when Paul said that Jesus will hand over the kingdom to the Father at the end, he meant that.

That verse from Paul was NOT written about Jesus relinquishing any authority. That is Jesus delivering up the children of the kingdom to the Father in a resurrection, and "presenting them faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy". It is the occasion when Christ says to His Father, "Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me!" Christ's reign has no ending, just as the rock which struck Daniel's image represented a kingdom which had no end.

The nature of the "kingdom" which Christ spoke of that He was given was His high priesthood, given to Him at His ascension, as described in Daniel 7. When Christ was given the title "King of kings", it meant "The Great High Priest of all high priests". Christ's high priesthood is superior to any other high priest that ever served - and then died. Christ's high priesthood is a deathless, unending one after the order of the deathless Melchizedek.

I stand by my statement that the Trinity has always reigned and will always reign over this earth. There are many scriptures attesting to this. For just a couple examples, "Thy throne is established of old, thou art from everlasting." (Psalms 93:2). And Psalms 145:13, "Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations." The Hebrew for the words "everlasting kingdom" in my KJV margin is even more explicit, and means, "a kingdom of all ages". So, pick an age - any age - and the Trinity is reigning over it continuously.

 

[One Son]

So you do not believe the Lord is coming any time soon? Luke accurately traces the exact direct generational lineage from Adam to Christ in Luke 3:23-38, and arrives at 76 generations. Moreover, just over 2,000 years have now elapsed from Christ to our present day. Therefore, allowing approximately for a 40-year generation (2000 divided by 40), we have only reached an additional 50 generations today. We have consequently only merely exhausted around 126 generations of the said 1,000 generations, roughly 874 short of the precise 1000 generations mark, which the literalists would have us believe.

Of course, the Spirit of God does not in the slightest speak in vain or advance a lie. The generational figure simply refers to the eternal promise and extent of His mercies. A thousand generations here thus means all.

Moses again employs ‘a thousand’ in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, “Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.”

This reading expressly reveals that God is a covenant keeping God. Moses is specifically testifying to the unfailing faithfulness of God and to the continuous bountiful mercies He bestows upon His people. Psalm 119:90 says, “Thy faithfulness is unto all generations.” He is here, in some way, articulating the reality of His perpetual blessings and the enormity of His love towards His elect. The term “a thousand” is here used as an indeterminate number, evidently indicating all generations. Psalm 89:3-4 says, “I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations.”

A thousand generations is therefore simply used here as a figure or symbol to represent all generations, it unquestionably cannot be limited to, or specifically relate to, a fixed number. This is highlighted when we discover the small amount of generations that have hitherto passed in this world.

Gal.3:16(ASV) Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Is.59:20 and a Redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith Jehovah.

21 And as for me, this is my covenant with them, saith Jehovah: my Spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith Jehovah, from henceforth and for ever.


How many generations in one?




Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

 

[Hammster]

That verse from Paul was NOT written about Jesus relinquishing any authority. That is Jesus delivering up the children of the kingdom to the Father in a resurrection, and "presenting them faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy". It is the occasion when Christ says to His Father, "Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me!" Christ's reign has no ending, just as the rock which struck Daniel's image represented a kingdom which had no end.

The nature of the "kingdom" which Christ spoke of that He was given was His high priesthood, given to Him at His ascension, as described in Daniel 7. When Christ was given the title "King of kings", it meant "The Great High Priest of all high priests". Christ's high priesthood is superior to any other high priest that ever served - and then died. Christ's high priesthood is a deathless, unending one after the order of the deathless Melchizedek.

I stand by my statement that the Trinity has always reigned and will always reign over this earth. There are many scriptures attesting to this. For just a couple examples, "Thy throne is established of old, thou art from everlasting." (Psalms 93:2). And Psalms 145:13, "Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations." The Hebrew for the words "everlasting kingdom" in my KJV margin is even more explicit, and means, "a kingdom of all ages". So, pick an age - any age - and the Trinity is reigning over it continuously.

then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
— 1 Corinthians 15:24

Unambiguous.