"On White Privilege"

[nightflight]

And that, right there? That is blatant racism. Being white doesn't make someone a better actor.

Are you going to tell me Laurence Olivier wasn't better than Mr. T?

 

[rturner76]

Same thing in China. Seems Chinese people are overly represented in media there.

I'm glad we agree white privilege exists. It;s just one of us that seems to wish that it be maintained.

 

[nightflight]

I'm glad we agree white privilege exists. It;s just one of us that seems to wish that it be maintained.

There is no white privilege.

 

[Chesterton]

There is only black privilege, legally and socially.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I asked for an example of a black character that, if played by a white actor, would defy tradition. A TV show about a successful white doctor with a wife and kids doesn't defy tradition.

It defies the tradition of seeing H. Huxtable as Bill Cosby...and at this point perhaps that would be a great thing to do.

Gee, I don't know. What is it that makes someone an individual? What makes Cliff Huxtable a different character than, say, J.J. Evans, George Jefferson or Geordi LaForge?

This is some rather deep philosophical territory...how much time do you have?

That defies tradition if played by a white actor. What about a white Cliff Huxtable defies tradition, exactly?

See above.

And I'm sure that character, whose name you can't remember, is just as iconic as James Bond.

Lol as iconic as James Bond?!? How many characters are as iconic as James Bond? I can think of maybe two.

Also what exactly does this prove? You realize that the overwhelming majority of white actors won't get to play James Bond either right lol? As far as I know, there's never been a fat Bond either, yet you don't hear anyone clamoring for one.

Let's see.... a tv character played by exactly one actor in a single tv show (plus an appearance or two on its spin-off), compared to an iconic character that has spanned over 50 years in over a dozen novels and more than 24 films, who has spawned literally an entire genre of fiction and influenced more characters since than can be counted.

Yep, the two are exactly the same, no difference at all.

Well let's be reasonable here...you asked me for something then kept moving the goalposts once I kept giving you examples. This is the first time that you've asked me for a character as "iconic as Bond"...and I'm starting to wonder what this has to do with your point.

I agree that race shouldn't be as much of a factor in casting as it usually is

What makes you think it is?

Fortunately, things have gotten better, but there is still a ceiling. Lead characters who aren't white are rare, unless the show/movie is about race, and it's even more pointed when we start talking about iconic characters. Why does James Bond have to be played by a white actor, just because he always has been? What about his character needs to be caucasian? Same can be said for Superman, Batman, even Spider-Man and Captain America. Who says these characters have to be white, just because they always have been?

If the goal is to hire the best actor for the role, and I agree that should be the goal, who's to say Denzel Washington can't be as good a Batman as Christian Bale, or Taye Diggs a far better Superman than Henry Cavill? But you know as well as I do, no one at Warner Brothers is going to consider either Washington or Diggs for the roles, or any actor who isn't caucasian.

Actually I don't know that no blacks were considered for any of those roles. Would it surprise you if they were?

Well, let's see.

Here's a link to an article about the top TV shows for last year, by ratings. The top 20 shows (excluding sports, news and reality shows) are:
The Big Bang Theory (twice!), NCIS, NCIS New Orleans, Empire, Madame Secretary, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods, The Blacklist, Scorpion, Scandal, Hawaii 5-0.

Of these shows, only two have a lead played by an actor of color: Empire and Scandal. Arguably, Empire is about race, being about a hip-hop record label, but its themes do go beyond that (from what I hear, I don't watch it), but Scandal doesn't seem to be about race, so that's one seems solid.

Of the rest, The Big Bang Theory and Blue Bloods have no major actors of color, NCIS, NCIS New Orleans, Empire, Madame Secretary, Criminal Minds, The Blacklist, Scorpion and Hawaii 5-0 all have mostly caucasian casts, with one or two regular cast members of color.

Still want to claim we have racial equality in casting? Feel free to make your case.

No problem...you named twelve shows, right? Of which you claimed only two have lead actors of color (we'll come back to that)...so that's 1/6th or roughly 16-17%. Not bad really when you consider that blacks only make up about 13% of the population.

Wait a moment though...you forgot Shemar Moore is one of the two lead characters on Criminal Minds! That brings us all the way up to 25%...nearly double their actual proportion of the population!

Would you like to just back all this up and take another run at it again? Shall we pretend that you didn't just make my argument for me and take another shot at this from a different angle?

If you want to claim that Hiddleston is a better actor than Idris Elba, then you're gonna have to find some way to prove that. Otherwise, I never claimed Hiddleston wasn't a good actor, nor that he wouldn't be good as Bond. All I said was that hiring him wouldn't be defying tradition regarding racial casting. That's all, and nothing more.

For a character as "iconic" as Bond...? Whom only a couple actors get to play every generation? A club so exclusive it includes less than half of one percent of just the men in acting (far less realistically). I don't see what you think this shows...if you're looking at just the numbers, there's probably far far more white actors who never got to play Bond than black actors.

I stand by what I said.

So race should be a consideration.

People can, and will, say whatever they want to, for whatever reason they want to. I'm only responsible for what I say.

Yes, but if we give out the role to Elba because he's black...then they've got a valid point. Whereas if he gets the role simply because he's best...they don't.

I'm not advocating he get the role just because it breaks tradition, and I never did.

What are you advocating then?

I came up with it, based on my own personal observation. I detailed some of it earlier in this post. If you feel you can refute my observations, feel free to.

Already did...with your own examples and your own standards. I expect that you'll shift goalposts...again.

When there are more exceptions than not.

Wait...what? As shown above, they're already represented more in the leading roles of the 20 most successful t.v. shows than they're represented in the U.S.. Realistically, they should cough one of those roles up to a latino.

Seeing more people of color in prominent, leading roles will lead to even more, and give actors of color more opportunities. There are plenty of talented, amazing actors of color out there, and few roles are going to them, so it seems as if the same two or three actors are getting the vast majority of the few roles available. I'm simply saying we open the field more.

And the only way to do that, to show casting agents as well as audiences that there are many, many amazing actors of color available, is to make an effort to consider them for major roles, and not simply go with a caucasian by default.

Talented, gifted, amazing actors come in many different colors and ethnicities, and I, for one, would like to see more of them.

-- A2SG, that's the point you missed....

Nope, I caught all that...I just disagreed. It's not a surprise though when you fail to show the racism you're hoping to show.

At this point it really just looks like you've bought into a false narrative. The question is why though? Why didn't you look at this harder before you bought in? Was your dad/mom racist? Does taking this position ease the white guilt you feel for it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I find that odd, too. My wife speaks to other women all the time, about any number of things. Granted, she's a journalist, but a lot of the time she's schmoozing, not working.

In my writing, I try to keep the Bechdel test in mind all the time, any time I see myself failing it, I feel I've neglected my characters.

-- A2SG, it really isn't a high bar to pass....which is kinda the point....

Is it that odd?

My wife has drawn rather nasty comments from other women on a pretty frequent basis...even if they're total strangers. She gets stalked by men when she goes to the store by herself...they literally follow her around.

She grew up in an area that's mostly black, so she experienced racism almost daily for being white and for being asian. By her account, it was just as bad from the girls as the boys.

So she's rather quiet around girls in general, and even to white girls it comes off as rather snobby/snooty. As a result, she doesn't have any girlfriends...her last one cut off all contact years ago. Other ones cut off contact when they get a boyfriend.

I understand that you might not realize what problems someone that attractive might face on a daily basis...but trust me, it's not uncommon. I've had a few girlfriends who were the same way.

 

[rturner76]

There is only black privilege, legally and socially.

I can see that with all the banks and media outlets owned by blacks. Wake up

 

[rturner76]

"You may not have much but at least you have the psychological wage of whiteness"

 

[nightflight]

"You may not have much but at least you have the psychological wage of whiteness"

Says the guy living in a $600K house in a 97% white suburb.

 

[nightflight]

I can see that with all the banks and media outlets owned by blacks. Wake up

And somehow I benefit from that. Somehow.

Why won't the head of CBS return my calls?

 

[rturner76]

Says the guy living in a $600K house in a 97% white suburb.

He was quoting WEB Dubois

 

[nightflight]

He was quoting WEB Dubois

Good for him.

 

[rturner76]

And somehow I benefit from that. Somehow.

Why won't the head of CBS return my calls?

.Every job I ever had I was hired by a white who worked for a white and pretty much everybody I know can say the same thing. Whites are the rulers of the United States and that is due to white privilege. It was set up since this country was set up. Rich whites on top, poor whites in the middle color on the bottom

 

[nightflight]

.Every job I ever had I was hired by a white who worked for a white and pretty much everybody I know can say the same thing. Whites are the rulers of the United States and that is due to white privilege. It was set up since this country was set up. Rich whites on top, poor whites in the middle color on the bottom

So basically this whole thing is a play to get money from white people. Its a scam, right?

 

[rturner76]

Good for him.

He was citing white privilege since back in the 1800's

 

[rturner76]

So basically this whole thing is a play to get money from white people. Its a scam, right?

It's a man trying to get an eual opportunity at a job and even advancement to management. I know upper management is too much to ask for at his point. We have to wait for the Baby Boomer to die out and even the gen xer's. Maybe the Millenials will give minorities a crack at upper management job opportunities.

 

[Creech]

.Every job I ever had I was hired by a white who worked for a white and pretty much everybody I know can say the same thing. Whites are the rulers of the United States and that is due to white privilege. It was set up since this country was set up. Rich whites on top, poor whites in the middle color on the bottom

Or because they have greater merit and ability on average than many within the minority population, and it's especially important to consider that whites are a huge majority of the U.S population.

Trying to portray oneself or one's group as the victim often correlates with far lower than average ability in this case.

 

[rturner76]

Or because they have greater merit and ability on average than many within the minority population, and it's especially important to consider that whites are a huge majority of the U.S population.

Trying to portray oneself or one's group as the victim often correlates with far lower than average ability in this case.

It is often a tactic of racists to blame the victim and white privilege blames the minority for not being able to master a white dominated society. It's like winning a card game with someone who has stacked the deck

 

[Chesterton]

.Every job I ever had I was hired by a white who worked for a white and pretty much everybody I know can say the same thing. Whites are the rulers of the United States and that is due to white privilege. It was set up since this country was set up. Rich whites on top, poor whites in the middle color on the bottom

It's simply because there are more white people. That's just basic common sense. If you live in China you'll probably work for Chinese, if in Arabia probably for Arabs, etc.

 

[Creech]

It is often a tactic of racists to blame the victim and white privilege blames the minority for not being able to master a white dominated society. It's like winning a card game with someone who has stacked the deck

It's fairly easy to get ahead and at the very least make a good standard of living in "white-dominated society". Work ethic, intelligence, creativity, etc. Your posts' victim narrative is silly because in reality it admits minority groups are FAR less likely to possess these characteristics.