"On White Privilege"

[rturner76]

It's fairly easy to get ahead and at the very least make a good standard of living in "white-dominated society". Work ethic, intelligence, creativity, etc. Your posts' victim narrative is silly because in reality it admits minority groups are FAR less likely to possess these characteristics.

No, minorities possess all of these qualities, however people working in a racist system, which this country is, will more likely pick the white candidate.

Isms are both ideologies and systems racism communism fascism. Bad systems create bad behavior and racism is a bad system. For example if I know white neighborhoods have a higher property value and I decide to fund public education based on property taxes that is a part of a racist system.

If someone or people interview a multitude of qualified candidates, but consistently hire white male candidates they may think it some kind of familiarity or sense of a feeling of more comfort with the white candidates,however this is in fact racism

 

[Paidiske]

Are you going to tell me Laurence Olivier wasn't better than Mr. T?

Maybe - I've never seen anything with either - but not because he was white!

I have honestly never read such blatant racism as I have on this thread. According to people here, whites are just naturally better, so the fact that they dominate socially is not a bad thing and nothing should be done to rectify it. I'm genuinely shocked.

 

[rturner76]

It's simply because there are more white people. That's just basic common sense. If you live in China you'll probably work for Chinese, if in Arabia probably for Arabs, etc.

A system of white privilege does make common sense in a country colonized by Europeans

 

[Cearbhall]

I have literally had this conversation with someone:

Him: I don't understand how there's privilege.
Me: If you were on a jury and a black man was being charged with rape, would you be more likely to think he's guilty than if he were a white man?
Him: Well, yeah. The statistics support that!
Me: But what did that particular white man do to deserve the benefit of the doubt? A new case isn't part of the statistics you've heard. A white man and a black man being charged with the same crime did nothing to deserve different treatment.
Him: That's still not a privilege...

Blows my mind.

Are there people who are almost completely self-aware of their prejudices and manage to fight them off and compensate for them most of the time? Sure. They probably aren't making a significant negative contribution to the issue of privilege and oppression. But if you're someone who thinks privilege doesn't exist at all, odds are you aren't one of these people.

 

[Chesterton]

A system of white privilege does make common sense in a country colonized by Europeans

No, a country with mostly white people is going to have mostly white people, that's all. So if you pick a random business out of the phone book, yes it's probably going to be white owned. Nothing sinister about that.

 

[rturner76]

Privilege is not just about money. It's a psychological edge you gain when you have the luxury of being oblivious to other people's reality. It doesn't mean you are oppressive but you are ignorant to other people's truth. Suffering no immediate consequence for it.

No, a country with mostly white people is going to have mostly white people, that's all. So if you pick a random business out of the phone book, yes it's probably going to be white owned. Nothing sinister about that.

 

[A2SG]

That is not at all what you asked. It may be what you shifted it to later in the conversation, but when Ana brought up Bill Cosby, it was in reference to this:



You asked for an example of a black character that if a white actor was cast instead of the black actor the show wouldn't be any different. You didn't bring up "defying tradition" in relation to this request until much later.

It seems to me they're the same conversation, really, as that's the tradition we wound up talking about defying.

Besides, I don't see how a white Cosby show would be the same as the existing one, since the Huxtables being an affluent black family was kinda the point of the show. The show may not have been about race in a direct in-your-face kind of way, but indirectly, it very much was.

But I guess it's all in how you view things.

-- A2SG, a white Cosby show wouldn't be the same show at all, it'd basically be Growing Pains.....

 

[nightflight]

Privilege is not just about money. It's a psychological edge you gain when you have the luxury of being oblivious to other people's reality. It doesn't mean you are oppressive but you are ignorant to other people's truth. Suffering no immediate consequence for it.

Ironically, perhaps paradoxically, accusations and "shaming" make me care even less about other people's reality. To be told that I possess genetic guilt increases my seeing others as "the other".

Funny how that works.

 

[nightflight]

Maybe - I've never seen anything with either - but not because he was white!

I have honestly never read such blatant racism as I have on this thread. According to people here, whites are just naturally better, so the fact that they dominate socially is not a bad thing and nothing should be done to rectify it. I'm genuinely shocked.

There's no racism on this thread. Just a few who aren't buying into the notion of genetic guilt; or you may call it the secular version of original sin.

 

[A2SG]

It defies the tradition of seeing H. Huxtable as Bill Cosby...and at this point perhaps that would be a great thing to do.

You know....I can't really argue with that.

This is some rather deep philosophical territory...how much time do you have?

Yeah...that's kinda my point.

Lol as iconic as James Bond?!? How many characters are as iconic as James Bond? I can think of maybe two.

Yeah, again, that's kinda the point.

Also what exactly does this prove? You realize that the overwhelming majority of white actors won't get to play James Bond either right lol? As far as I know, there's never been a fat Bond either, yet you don't hear anyone clamoring for one.

I don't know about you, but I think William Conrad would have made a better Bond than Lazenby. Heck, I'd even say better than Moore....I gotta admit, I'm not a fan of his Bond. Bond and the Saint aren't the same character, but Moore seemed to think they were.

Well let's be reasonable here...you asked me for something then kept moving the goalposts once I kept giving you examples. This is the first time that you've asked me for a character as "iconic as Bond"...and I'm starting to wonder what this has to do with your point.

I didn't say you had to come up with someone as iconic as Bond, but you did try to equate him with Cliff Huxtable, and I didn't think that was a valid comparison.

What makes you think it is?

Observation.

Actually I don't know that no blacks were considered for any of those roles. Would it surprise you if they were?

Very much so.

No problem...you named twelve shows, right? Of which you claimed only two have lead actors of color (we'll come back to that)...so that's 1/6th or roughly 16-17%. Not bad really when you consider that blacks only make up about 13% of the population.

You do realize you're comparing the entire population to only 12 shows, right? Granted, the most popular of the year, but still. I'm not sure comparing them as percentages of the population is all that valid, to be honest.

Wait a moment though...you forgot Shemar Moore is one of the two lead characters on Criminal Minds!

I admit, I don't watch the show, but here are some of the images I saw when googling the show:

If Moore is the star of the show, the promotional materials don't make that clear.

Which would kind of illustrate my point for me, really.

That brings us all the way up to 25%...nearly double their actual proportion of the population!

Would you like to just back all this up and take another run at it again? Shall we pretend that you didn't just make my argument for me and take another shot at this from a different angle?

Not really, since I wasn't making an argument about proportion to the population. I was talking about prominence of roles.

For a character as "iconic" as Bond...? Whom only a couple actors get to play every generation? A club so exclusive it includes less than half of one percent of just the men in acting (far less realistically). I don't see what you think this shows...if you're looking at just the numbers, there's probably far far more white actors who never got to play Bond than black actors.

True enough. But my point is that there's no reason a talented, gifted actor like Idris Elba shouldn't be considered for the role, and I hope he is being seriously considered. I also think he'd be better than Tom Hiddleston, but I won't deny that's just my opinion.

But the fact that we're arguing about this, rather than it being a foregone conclusion that of course Elba's under serious consideration is an example of white privilege. White actors tend to get the most prominent, most iconic roles in movies.

So race should be a consideration.

Again, I stand by what I said...not a paraphrase of it.

Yes, but if we give out the role to Elba because he's black...then they've got a valid point. Whereas if he gets the role simply because he's best...they don't.

No one is suggesting Elba get the role just because he's black.

What are you advocating then?

What did I say? When in doubt, go with exactly what I said.

Already did...with your own examples and your own standards.

Not really. You refuted a point only you made about proportional population. That wasn't what I said.

I expect that you'll shift goalposts...again.

The goalposts remain right where they've always been.

Wait...what? As shown above, they're already represented more in the leading roles of the 20 most successful t.v. shows than they're represented in the U.S.. Realistically, they should cough one of those roles up to a latino.

I'd love to see more shows led by latinos. I can only think of a couple off the top of my head, and I have no idea how well they're doing in the ratings.

Nope, I caught all that...I just disagreed. It's not a surprise though when you fail to show the racism you're hoping to show.

Considering my point was never about showing racism, that's an odd thing to say.

But, if you think I've been trying to point out how racist anything is, clearly my point has been missed by more than a country mile.

At this point it really just looks like you've bought into a false narrative. The question is why though? Why didn't you look at this harder before you bought in? Was your dad/mom racist? Does taking this position ease the white guilt you feel for it?

Sigh....

Look, dude, we've gotten to the point where we're talking past each other. Maybe I haven't made my point clear enough to you...if so, that's on me. I was never trying to say that Hollywood or TV is racist. If you recall, I've gone out of my way, on several occasions, to say I'm not interested in assigning blame.

If you're willing to drop this idea you have that I'm calling anyone or anything racist, then maybe we can continue to have a productive conversation. If not...well, it's been great, and I really have enjoyed the discussion.

-- A2SG, take care now....

 

[Rick Otto]

Maybe - I've never seen anything with either - but not because he was white!

I have honestly never read such blatant racism as I have on this thread. According to people here, whites are just naturally better, so the fact that they dominate socially is not a bad thing and nothing should be done to rectify it. I'm genuinely shocked.

Welcome to Christendom, in distinction to Christianity.

 

[whatbogsends]

It seems to me they're the same conversation, really, as that's the tradition we wound up talking about defying.

Besides, I don't see how a white Cosby show would be the same as the existing one, since the Huxtables being an affluent black family was kinda the point of the show. The show may not have been about race in a direct in-your-face kind of way, but indirectly, it very much was.

But I guess it's all in how you view things.

-- A2SG, a white Cosby show wouldn't be the same show at all, it'd basically be Growing Pains.....

You should try convincing this guy...

Okay. Take away Dr. Huxtable's skin color. What makes him a "black character"?

This guy goes on to try to make a point that there are apparently only white doctors on TV.

He's a successful doctor. I can name a dozen successful white doctors from TV right off the top of my head without breaking a sweat. So what is it about another successful doctor, who happens to be white, is groundbreaking or non-traditional?

Unless, that TV show is Grey's Anatomy. Or Private Practice. Or House. Or ER.

I'm sure there's plenty more, but i don't really know what other Hospital/Doctor shows are out there (not that i watch these, but i've seen these shows, and all of them have successful black doctors as regular cast members).

 

[A2SG]

This guy goes on to try to make a point that there are apparently only white doctors on TV.

When did I say that, exactly?

Unless, that TV show is Grey's Anatomy. Or Private Practice. Or House. Or ER.

What about them?

I'm sure there's plenty more, but i don't really know what other Hospital/Doctor shows are out there (not that i watch these, but i've seen these shows, and all of them have successful black doctors as regular cast members).

Sure. And....?

If you're trying to argue with some point I made, I'd be helpful to know what that point was. Given the first comment, you may not be clear on what points I've actually been trying to make, so I'd rather not assume.

-- A2SG, if I can clear up anything for you, feel free to ask....

 

[whatbogsends]

When did I say that, exactly?

What about them?

Sure. And....?

If you're trying to argue with some point I made, I'd be helpful to know what that point was. Given the first comment, you may not be clear on what points I've actually been trying to make, so I'd rather not assume.

-- A2SG, if I can clear up anything for you, feel free to ask....

Pray tell, what was your point when you said "I can name a dozen successful white doctors from TV right off the top of my head without breaking a sweat".

To be quite honest, your statement absolutely gave the impression that you thought that there weren't also a dozen successful black doctors easily able to be identified on TV. If that wasn't the implication, your statement doesn't mean much of anything, unless it's some sort of braggadocio about your knowledge of TV doctors.

Your position is quite clear. You think there isn't enough diversity in TV and Movies. You cite anecdotal evidence to support your position, such as a list of top rated TV shows, saying how darn white they are. And when it's pointed out that they're really not any more white than the population at large, you say "well, you can't use that as an example, it's not a large enough sample size". You do realize that the list of top rated TV shows was your argument, don't you? You make the argument, and then when it's shown that it doesn't really show what you claimed it does, you go on to say it wasn't really relevant.

You say that you think Idris Elba should be cast as Bond because it would defy tradition, then you say he shouldn't be cast simply because he's black, but it would be great to cast him because he's black, and when asked to clarify your position as to whether you think they should consider his being black when casting him, you say that it doesn't really matter what you think since you're not casting for Bond movies anyway. Again, you make the argument, then go on to say it's not really relevant.

You reject any suggestion that the outcomes of blacks may be influenced by their own actions, as any such suggestion must be inherently racist, and ignore arenas and examples where minorities have outcomes that exceed the outcomes of whites.

I've been reading page after page of posts in this thread, and you've had ample space to clear up any ambiguity in your argument. That being said, since your point rarely seems to be related to the statements you make preceding the point, i will gladly concede that i don't know what point you're trying to make.

 

[A2SG]

Pray tell, what was your point when you said "I can name a dozen successful white doctors from TV right off the top of my head without breaking a sweat".

That a white actor playing the character of Cliff Huxtable wouldn't be defying tradition as regards race and casting TV shows. It was part of a tangent from a general discussion about race and hiring.

To be quite honest, your statement absolutely gave the impression that you thought that there weren't also a dozen successful black doctors easily able to be identified on TV.

Sure, if you only read that single bit out of context, and didn't bother to read the whole conversation it came from.

If that wasn't the implication, your statement doesn't mean much of anything, unless it's some sort of braggadocio about your knowledge of TV doctors.

Your position is quite clear. You think there isn't enough diversity in TV and Movies. You cite anecdotal evidence to support your position, such as a list of top rated TV shows, saying how darn white they are. And when it's pointed out that they're really not any more white than the population at large, you say "well, you can't use that as an example, it's not a large enough sample size".

Is that a quote? Because I don't know who you're quoting. I never said that.

You do realize that the list of top rated TV shows was your argument, don't you? You make the argument, and then when it's shown that it doesn't really show what you claimed it does, you go on to say it wasn't really relevant.

I didn't make any argument about the population at large.

You say that you think Idris Elba should be cast as Bond because it would defy tradition, then you say he shouldn't be cast simply because he's black, but it would be great to cast him because he's black, and when asked to clarify your position as to whether you think they should consider his being black when casting him, you say that it doesn't really matter what you think since you're not casting for Bond movies anyway. Again, you make the argument, then go on to say it's not really relevant.

You reject any suggestion that the outcomes of blacks may be influenced by their own actions, as any such suggestion must be inherently racist, and ignore arenas and examples where minorities have outcomes that exceed the outcomes of whites.

If you're gonna reference my arguments, please get them right first.

I've been reading page after page of posts in this thread, and you've had ample space to clear up any ambiguity in your argument. That being said, since your point rarely seems to be related to the statements you make preceding the point, i will gladly concede that i don't know what point you're trying to make.

Clearly.

While I have tried to make my points as clearly as possible, this has been a long exchange, and unless you've read every single post made, there may be stuff you've missed. I'm more than willing to answer any questions you have, but I ask that you not assume instead. It's annoying, and I will not accept responsibility for your assumptions, I can only be responsible for what I've specifically written.

My point, simply, is that there is racial inequality in this country. We seem to have become centered on casting tv shows and movies, and I used the top 20 shows to show how the most prominent roles are, by and large, played by caucasian actors. Granted, this is a better landscape than was the case 20 years ago, and far better than 50 years ago, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.

That said, it still remains that, for the most part, if a black actor leads a show, the show is more often than not about race. The Cosby Show was offered as an example where it would be the same show if a white actor played the lead role instead. I disagree, because the point of the show was that the Huxtables were a successful, affluent black family. The show wasn't overly preachy about this fact (usually), but it was there, from appearances by famous black singers or actors (Stevie Wonder, Dizzie Gillespie, etc.), to the art on the wall. So a white cast show wouldn't be the same show at all...it'd be, basically, Growing Pains.

As to how Idris Elba got into this, I simply said, at one point, that I think he'd be amazing as James Bond. I'd even go so far as to say he'd be better than many of the actors who have portrayed him up to this point, but I admit that's just my opinion. I never, ever, suggested that he get the role just because he's black, though I have maintained that I don't think it's right that he not even be considered because of it either. I can't say anything beyond that regarding how "acceptable" it would be to me if he, or someone else, got the part, because it's not up to me, and never will be. I'd probably accept it either way, and see future movies, regardless. This despite the fact that the last few haven't been all that great...but I don't think that's because of Daniel Craig.

If you disagree with any of the above, I'm more than willing to discuss it...but I can't discuss points I never raised, or points that differ from those I did actually make.

-- A2SG, that's fair, isn't it?

 

[nightflight]

Shemar Moore left CM.

 

[whatbogsends]

Your position is quite clear. You think there isn't enough diversity in TV and Movies. You cite anecdotal evidence to support your position, such as a list of top rated TV shows, saying how darn white they are. And when it's pointed out that they're really not any more white than the population at large, you say "well, you can't use that as an example, it's not a large enough sample size". You do realize that the list of top rated TV shows was your argument, don't you? You make the argument, and then when it's shown that it doesn't really show what you claimed it does, you go on to say it wasn't really relevant.

Is that a quote? Because I don't know who you're quoting. I never said that.

Must have been a different A2SG then...

I
Well, let's see.

Here's a link to an article about the top TV shows for last year, by ratings. The top 20 shows (excluding sports, news and reality shows) are:
The Big Bang Theory (twice!), NCIS, NCIS New Orleans, Empire, Madame Secretary, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods, The Blacklist, Scorpion, Scandal, Hawaii 5-0.

Of these shows, only two have a lead played by an actor of color: Empire and Scandal. Arguably, Empire is about race, being about a hip-hop record label, but its themes do go beyond that (from what I hear, I don't watch it), but Scandal doesn't seem to be about race, so that's one seems solid.

Of the rest, The Big Bang Theory and Blue Bloods have no major actors of color, NCIS, NCIS New Orleans, Empire, Madame Secretary, Criminal Minds, The Blacklist, Scorpion and Hawaii 5-0 all have mostly caucasian casts, with one or two regular cast members of color.

Still want to claim we have racial equality in casting? Feel free to make your case.

No problem...you named twelve shows, right? Of which you claimed only two have lead actors of color (we'll come back to that)...so that's 1/6th or roughly 16-17%. Not bad really when you consider that blacks only make up about 13% of the population.

Wait a moment though...you forgot Shemar Moore is one of the two lead characters on Criminal Minds! That brings us all the way up to 25%...nearly double their actual proportion of the population!

Would you like to just back all this up and take another run at it again? Shall we pretend that you didn't just make my argument for me and take another shot at this from a different angle?

You do realize you're comparing the entire population to only 12 shows, right? Granted, the most popular of the year, but still. I'm not sure comparing them as percentages of the population is all that valid, to be honest.

Feel free to try to explain that you weren't citing the list of high rated shows and whiteness of actors within them as evidence of racial bias in casting, and then when Ana showed that those shows weren't as white as you claimed, your argument was "well, that's only 12 shows!"

I didn't make any argument about the population at large.

No, you made the argument that that list of shows exemplified how white casting is. When Ana countered with the metric showing that the percentages of primary characters in those shows wasn't really out of line with the percentages of those minorities in America, you dismissed the entire thing as too small of a sample size to have any real meaning.

And, for the record, The Big Bang Theory does have 1 major actor of color, unless we're suddenly counting Rajesh as white.

If you're gonna reference my arguments, please get them right first.

I've done so and shown where you backtracked.

Clearly.

While I have tried to make my points as clearly as possible, this has been a long exchange, and unless you've read every single post made, there may be stuff you've missed. I'm more than willing to answer any questions you have, but I ask that you not assume instead. It's annoying, and I will not accept responsibility for your assumptions, I can only be responsible for what I've specifically written.

My point, simply, is that there is racial inequality in this country. We seem to have become centered on casting tv shows and movies, and I used the top 20 shows to show how the most prominent roles are, by and large, played by caucasian actors. Granted, this is a better landscape than was the case 20 years ago, and far better than 50 years ago, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.

That said, it still remains that, for the most part, if a black actor leads a show, the show is more often than not about race. The Cosby Show was offered as an example where it would be the same show if a white actor played the lead role instead. I disagree, because the point of the show was that the Huxtables were a successful, affluent black family. The show wasn't overly preachy about this fact (usually), but it was there, from appearances by famous black singers or actors (Stevie Wonder, Dizzie Gillespie, etc.), to the art on the wall. So a white cast show wouldn't be the same show at all...it'd be, basically, Growing Pains.

As to how Idris Elba got into this, I simply said, at one point, that I think he'd be amazing as James Bond. I'd even go so far as to say he'd be better than many of the actors who have portrayed him up to this point, but I admit that's just my opinion. I never, ever, suggested that he get the role just because he's black, though I have maintained that I don't think it's right that he not even be considered because of it either. I can't say anything beyond that regarding how "acceptable" it would be to me if he, or someone else, got the part, because it's not up to me, and never will be. I'd probably accept it either way, and see future movies, regardless. This despite the fact that the last few haven't been all that great...but I don't think that's because of Daniel Craig.

If you disagree with any of the above, I'm more than willing to discuss it...but I can't discuss points I never raised, or points that differ from those I did actually make.

-- A2SG, that's fair, isn't it?

I have read every single post you made in this thread. In fact, i've read every post in this thread.

As far as Idris Elba goes, you simply said it at one point, then brought it up again when Idris wasn't a slam dunk point, then, totally unprompted, reiterated how great he would be, then brought him up again when Ana suggested that perhaps Tom Hiddleston got the part because he was the best actor for the part. Then brought him up again in response to Ana's "someone" remark.

And then, act all "all i did was mention Idris Ilba" when you've been harping on about him page after page in this thread. I suggest you read all of your own posts as well.

 

[Deviant Writer]

I have literally had this conversation with someone:

Him: I don't understand how there's privilege.
Me: If you were on a jury and a black man was being charged with rape, would you be more likely to think he's guilty than if he were a white man?
Him: Well, yeah. The statistics support that!
Me: But what did that particular white man do to deserve the benefit of the doubt? A new case isn't part of the statistics you've heard. A white man and a black man being charged with the same crime did nothing to deserve different treatment.
Him: That's still not a privilege...

The problem is that as long as white people think "privilege" means "you are never ever going to struggle ever," many of them will continue to say that it doesn't exist for them.

A white guy can become elected president without anyone thinking he's secretly a Muslim. Benefit of the doubt. The same birthers who jumped up and down about birth certificates when Obama became president had nothing to say to their mythological figure Donald Dump about his. Benefit of the doubt.

 

[nightflight]

The problem is that as long as white people think "privilege" means "you are never ever going to struggle ever," many of them will continue to say that it doesn't exist for them.

A white guy can become elected president without anyone thinking he's secretly a Muslim. Benefit of the doubt. The same birthers who jumped up and down about birth certificates when Obama became president had nothing to say to their mythological figure Donald Dump about his. Benefit of the doubt.

Only if said white guy doesn't explicitly say "my Muslim faith" before being corrected on what his faith actually is by a sympathetic "journalist".

 

[Deviant Writer]

Only if said white guy doesn't explicitly say "my Muslim faith" before being corrected on what his faith actually is by a sympathetic "journalist".

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimfaith.asp

And when he explicitly said "Christian faith" all the other times, you counted that too? You've been asked that before and you had no response.