"On White Privilege"

[nightflight]

And when he said "Christian faith" all the other times, you counted that too? You've been asked that before and you had no response.

Because its such an easy error to make, forgetting one's faith.

 

[Deviant Writer]

Because its such an easy error to make, forgetting one's faith.

And you are avoiding my question. Again. When he has explicitly said that he's a Christian, do you acknowledge and accept that as evidence that he's a Christian?

 

[Cearbhall]

The problem is that as long as white people think "privilege" means "you are never ever going to struggle ever," many of them will continue to say that it doesn't exist for them.

Precisely. The conversation usually turns into "Being white hasn't kept us from having problems!"

 

[nightflight]

And you are avoiding my question. Again. When he has explicitly said that he's a Christian, do you acknowledge and accept that as evidence that he's a Christian?

I can't get into the man's head (neither can you). The point is, with his reference to his "Muslim faith", his obvious sympathies to Islam and the Islamic world, saying the Muslim morning prayer is the "prettiest sound in the world", etc. its more likely to think that Obama may be a Muslim than it would any "white guy" who has run for the office of the Presidency. You insinuate that people accuse or suspect that Obama is a Muslim simply because he's black, when that is not the only reason. If Colin Powell or Allen West were to run for president, its doubtful anyone would accuse them or suspect them of being Muslims.

Not everything is about race.

 

[nightflight]

Precisely. The conversation usually turns into "Being white hasn't kept us from having problems!"

The conversation is based on an assumption of genetic guilt. Its a scam.

 

[Deviant Writer]

I can't get into the man's head (neither can you). The point is, with his reference to his "Muslim faith", his obvious sympathies to Islam and the Islamic world, saying the Muslim morning prayer is the "prettiest sound in the world", etc.

So what if he thinks it's pretty? I think some religious songs are "pretty" but that doesn't make me religious. You don't have any actual evidence of him ACTUALLY PRACTICING THE FAITH but that doesn't matter to you. He hates Muslims less than the average American Christian conservative. That's your evidence.

its more likely to think that Obama may be a Muslim than it would any "white guy" who has run for the office of the Presidency.

And the odds are still garbage. Which is why you shouldn't believe it.

You insinuate that people accuse or suspect that Obama is a Muslim simply because he's black, when that is not the only reason.

Of course. It's because he's black AND because he's not a conservative. And because he's not a conservative then he hates white people and Christianity.

If Colin Powell or Allen West were to run for president, its doubtful anyone would accuse them or suspect them of being Muslims.

This is the typical excuse we hear: "Oh but I support *insert black conservative here* and don't excuse them of stupid things I can't prove so that means I can't be racist."

That support never gets to the point of actually voting for said black conservatives. How many birthers/Muslim conspiracy theorists voted for Carson over Lord Drumpf the King Birther himself? None is my guess.

 

[nightflight]

So what if he thinks it's pretty? I think some religious songs are "pretty" but that doesn't make me religious. You don't have any actual evidence of him ACTUALLY PRACTICING THE FAITH but that doesn't matter to you. He hates Muslims less than the average American Christian conservative. That's your evidence.

I have no evidence of him "actually practicing the faith" because I never asserted here that he "practiced the faith".

And the odds are still garbage. Which is why you shouldn't believe it.

How did you measure these "odds"? Or is it just something you assert just 'cuz?

Of course. It's because he's black AND because he's not a conservative. And because he's not a conservative then he hates white people and Christianity.

So you admit that its not simply "raaaaaacism" that people may associate or assert that Oblabla is a Muslim. Hey, its a start!

This is the typical excuse we hear: "Oh but I support *insert black conservative here* and don't excuse them of stupid things I can't prove so that means I can't be racist."

Actually, its a bit more difficult to accuse a white person of being racist against blacks when they support a black political candidate. But you guys will do it anyway because you don't have a lot else to go on.

That support never gets to the point of actually voting for said black conservatives. How many birthers/Muslim conspiracy theorists voted for Carson over Lord Drumpf the King Birther himself? None is my guess.

It sounds like here you are saying that conservative should vote for a black candidate because he is black, to prove something. Don't project your progressive proclivities and pathologies onto the rest of us, 'k?

 

[Chesterton]

Privilege is not just about money. It's a psychological edge you gain when you have the luxury of being oblivious to other people's reality. It doesn't mean you are oppressive but you are ignorant to other people's truth. Suffering no immediate consequence for it.

I have no idea what you're saying here. But what do you want? What would make things better in your opinion?

 

[whatbogsends]

The truth is, there is definitely privilege in the US (or anywhere else). That privilege can be derived from many things. Having a strong family unit that supports you is a privilege that helps you succeed. Being taught the importance of education and hard work at a young age is a privilege that helps you succeed. The socio-economic class you are born into can be a privilege that helps you succeed. Being good looking is a privilege that helps you succeed. Race, or specifically being white, is a privilege that helps you succeed.

I definitely believe "white privilege" exists. I do also, however, disagree with the way many (most?) people try to quantify and define white privilege. More often than not, people put forth the argument that the entire breadth of disparate outcomes is laid at the door of racial bias or "white privilege".

When people argue that because the top positions (for examples, CEOs of Fortune 500 companies) are overwhelmingly white they see this as an indication of "white privilege". However, the fact is, that while "being white" may be a factor to how those people got those positions, it was certainly not the only factor, nor does it really help the rest of us white people that these other white people hold these positions. We're talking about a vanishingly small minority of white people that have the reigns to these power structure, and i, as a working class white person, have no more access to those power structures than a black person.

I certainly come from privilege, as i had two married parents that taught me the value of education and the value of a dollar. I didn't have to be concerned with ensuring i was housed and fed, and i was not at risk of abuse.

I've seen articles, such as this one: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...on-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/
that cite the statistic of 72% of African-American births are out of wedlock. That right there puts many of the young black people at a disadvantage, and would tend to influence outcomes negatively for those people. What i don't understand is how we can lay the blame of out of wedlock black children at the feet of "society at large, mostly white people", or how we can dismiss this as one of the causes of disparate outcomes when comparing ethnic groups, as is often the chief complaint among "white privilege" advocates. The author of that article received a backlash for bringing that fact to the table, just as i get labeled a racist on these forums when i try to show that you can't simply look at disparate outcomes and say "racial bias is to blame".

I absolutely want to help people of all stripes improve their outcomes. However, if you can't have a candid discussion about the causes of those outcomes, it becomes very difficult to move forward with solutions.

 

[rturner76]

I have no idea what you're saying here. But what do you want? What would make things better in your opinion?

More equality in education would be a good start. Allowing room for minorities in the upper level management of major corporations would be nice. Basically equal opportunity in all levels of employment and education. Not extra consideration but equal opportunities in employment, health care, education, housing, and all other areas of society. In other words, white people must be willing to let go of total domination or "colonization" and work with others for a multicultural society where all people are treated as equals.

 

[Deviant Writer]

I have no evidence of him "actually practicing the faith" because I never asserted here that he "practiced the faith".

You asserted that he's a Muslim.

How did you measure these "odds"? Or is it just something you assert just 'cuz?

By whether or not he's practiced the faith or follows any of the rules. Since he doesn't, I say the odds of him being a Muslim are pretty much nonexistent. As opposed to you asserting "he's more likely to be a Muslim than others so I'm just going to assume he is one anyway" and say that it's Obama's fault. You want to talk about psychopathology? Let's talk about the people who say "Obama IS a Muslim" as a matter of fact.

So you admit that its not simply "raaaaaacism" that people may associate or assert that Oblabla is a Muslim. Hey, its a start!

No, it's racism AND general ignorance AND extremely poor logic.

Actually, its a bit more difficult to accuse a white person of being racist against blacks when they support a black political candidate.

Social conservatives will never know what that feels like.

It sounds like here you are saying that conservative should vote for a black candidate because he is black, to prove something.

I'm not saying they should do that. I'm saying that they won't.

 

[nightflight]

More equality in education would be a good start. Allowing room for minorities in the upper level management of major corporations would be nice. Basically equal opportunity in all levels of employment and education. Not extra consideration but equal opportunities in employment, health care, education, housing, and all other areas of society. In other words, white people must be willing to let go of total domination or "colonization" and work with others for a multicultural society where all people are treated as equals.

Fail.

 

[nightflight]

You asserted that he's a Muslim.

Not in this thread.

By whether or not he's practiced the faith or follows any of the rules. Since he doesn't, I say the odds of him being a Muslim are pretty much nonexistent. As opposed to you asserting "he's more likely to be a Muslim than others so I'm just going to assume he is one anyway" and say that it's Obama's fault.

But since he has Islam in his background, its more likely that he would be assumed, rightly or wrongly to be a Muslim. This was the whole point; you asserted that people claiming Obama to be a Muslim was simply because he's black. You said, "A white guy can become elected president without anyone thinking he's secretly a Muslim. Benefit of the doubt." I simply challenged your insinuation that Obama's race alone opened him to charges of being a Muslim.

You want to talk about psychopathology? Look no further than what you post.

?

No, it's racism AND general ignorance.

You assume racism. As for ignorance, maybe. I can't get into the man's head. Neither can you.

I'm not saying they should do that. I'm saying that they won't.

Then how do candidates like Allen West, Tim Scott, Bobby Jindal and Nikki Hayley possibly get into office?

 

[Chesterton]

More equality in education would be a good start. Allowing room for minorities in the upper level management of major corporations would be nice. Basically equal opportunity in all levels of employment and education. Not extra consideration but equal opportunities in employment, health care, education, housing, and all other areas of society. In other words, white people must be willing to let go of total domination or "colonization" and work with others for a multicultural society where all people are treated as equals.

That's nuts. Why would you want equality when you have better than equality; you have the advantage, you have privilege in education and employment. Not only is there room for minorities, people are forced to make room by law. You're not dealing with reality, you just seem to be in love with the idea of being a victim. And it's very harmful to keep spreading your false narrative, you just give the races a reason to resent each other.

 

[Deviant Writer]

Not in this thread.

But you have said it in other threads and you can't back down from that.

But since he has Islam in his background, its more likely that he would be assumed, rightly or wrongly to be a Muslim.

But it's WRONG. That's what I'm telling you. You try and make a tepid defense like "He has Islam in his background." He's got Christianity in his background, too.

This was the whole point; you asserted that people claiming Obama to be a Muslim was simply because he's black. You said, "A white guy can become elected president without anyone thinking he's secretly a Muslim. Benefit of the doubt." I simply challenged your insinuation that Obama's race alone opened him to charges of being a Muslim.

Well in my previous statement, I said it was ALSO terrible logic and general ignorance. There you go. Golf clap. It's not JUST racism.

You assume racism. As for ignorance, maybe. I can't get into the man's head. Neither can you.

And...yet you still think he's a Muslim.

Then how do candidates like Allen West, Tim Scott, Bobby Jindal and Nikki Hayley possibly get into office?

What other Republicans did they run against during that particular election?

 

[nightflight]

But you have said it in other threads and you can't back down from that.

Then address it in those threads. I was responding to an assertion you made here.

But it's WRONG. That's what I'm telling you. You try and make a tepid defense like "He has Islam in his background." He's got Christianity in his background, too.

You said that simply because of his race, people would accuse him of being a Muslim. I simply responded that if he had no Islam in his background, they wouldn't. They couldn't; the topic wouldn't even come up.

Well in my previous statement, I said it was ALSO terrible logic and general ignorance. There you go. Golf clap. It's not JUST racism.

Earlier you insinuated that it was his race alone.

And...yet you still think he's a Muslim.

I don't know who Obama is in his head. Nor do you.

What other Republicans did they run against during that particular election?

Why in the world would that matter? Are you about to run a criteria for conservatives in electing blacks?

 

[Creech]

This thread is pure silliness, misconceptions, and false senses of victimhood. Sad!

 

[Deviant Writer]

Then address it in those threads. I was responding to an assertion you made here.

That point doesn't go away simply because we changed threads.

You said that simply because of his race, people would accuse him of being a Muslim. I simply responded that if he had no Islam in his background, they wouldn't. They couldn't; the topic wouldn't even come up.

It's not "they." It's "we" because it includes them and you.

And it's still not a good enough excuse. Because it's wrong. It's wrong that he has "Islam in his background" because he wasn't raised Muslim.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...l/obama-attended-an-indonesian-public-school/

Earlier you insinuated that it was his race alone.

Yeah, and in earlier threads you explicitly say Obama is a Muslim.

I don't know who Obama is in his head. Nor do you.

So it seems we've gone to "Yes I think Obama is a Muslim" to "I don't know if he's a Muslim." Which I guess is an improvement.

Why in the world would that matter?

Well when given a choice between Carson and a blustering birther bigot like Trump, the birthers chose Trump. Choice matters.

 

[A2SG]

Must have been a different A2SG then...

Must have been, because this A2SG did not say the stuff you put in quotes, as the quoted material clearly shows.

Also, if you look at that quoted material, you'll see the point I actually tried to make.

Feel free to try to explain that you weren't citing the list of high rated shows and whiteness of actors within them as evidence of racial bias in casting, and then when Ana showed that those shows weren't as white as you claimed, your argument was "well, that's only 12 shows!"

Note these quotes: "Of these shows, only two have a lead played by an actor of color", "Of the rest, The Big Bang Theory and Blue Bloods have no major actors of color,"

I was talking about prominence of roles. It's why Scandal and Empire are equal on the list...had I been talking about the number of black roles, Empire would have been the only one, as it's the only show that has a predominately black cast. Scandal has a black lead (which was my point), but it doesn't make a case for number of roles, since it only has one major role played by a black actor, and a few other supporting roles.

So when Ana cited how proportional the shows were to the audience (using bad math, incidentally), it missed my point entirely.

No, you made the argument that that list of shows exemplified how white casting is.

In terms of prominence of roles, which is why I talked about the lead actors on those various shows, and didn't mention, even once, how many black actors there were.

When Ana countered with the metric showing that the percentages of primary characters in those shows wasn't really out of line with the percentages of those minorities in America, you dismissed the entire thing as too small of a sample size to have any real meaning.

I actually never said a thing about sample size, I simply said this: "You do realize you're comparing the entire population to only 12 shows, right? Granted, the most popular of the year, but still. I'm not sure comparing them as percentages of the population is all that valid, to be honest."

I get why you assumed it was about sample size, but it really isn't. Here's why it isn't valid: he did not cite the actual number of black actors and compare that to the population. He simply said that 3 shows out of 12 equals 25%, and compared that to the population. That figure does not represent the number of black actors compared to white actors on those shows, so it's not valid to compare it to the population at large. It's bad math on its face. Frankly, sample size is only part of the problem with math in his argument there.

And beside all that, of those three shows, only one has a predominately black cast, the other two feature one black actor each in a lead role (and one of those is questionable, but I don't watch it, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt).

And, for the record, The Big Bang Theory does have 1 major actor of color, unless we're suddenly counting Rajesh as white.

Good point. I did make it a point to include other colors besides black actors, and I missed him. Sorry.

I've done so and shown where you backtracked.

Nope, you only showed where you missed the point I tried to make. But that's on me to explain it better, so I will try harder in the future.

I have read every single post you made in this thread. In fact, i've read every post in this thread.

As far as Idris Elba goes, you simply said it at one point, then brought it up again when Idris wasn't a slam dunk point, then, totally unprompted, reiterated how great he would be, then brought him up again when Ana suggested that perhaps Tom Hiddleston got the part because he was the best actor for the part. Then brought him up again in response to Ana's "someone" remark.

And then, act all "all i did was mention Idris Ilba" when you've been harping on about him page after page in this thread. I suggest you read all of your own posts as well.

Yup. I said I never claimed he should get the part just because he's black, and that remains true.

I used him as an example of how it's white privilege to see most lead characters in movies or on TV overwhelmingly played by white actors, especially for the most iconic of them. You'll note, if you read every post, that I also mentioned Hayley Atwell playing the Doctor, so it's not just white, it's white male privilege...but, I grant you, that's not entirely on point for this thread.

-- A2SG, still, since it is now canon that time lords can change gender when they regenerate, why not Hayley Atwell?

 

[nightflight]

That point doesn't go away simply because we changed threads.

But its not the point I was responding to.

It's not "they." It's "we" because it includes them and you.

Actually, it does not.

And it's still not a good enough excuse. Because it's wrong. It's wrong that he has "Islam in his background" because he wasn't raised Muslim.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...l/obama-attended-an-indonesian-public-school/

Which is entirely not. The. Point. I was responding to your insinuation that people accused Oblabla of being a Muslim based only on his race. Do I really have to explain this to you repeatedly??

Yeah, and in earlier threads you explicitly say Obama is a Muslim.

Then address that in those threads. Here, in this thread I was addressing your insinuation that Oblabla was accused of being a Muslim based on his race alone. (Explaining it yet again.)

So it seems we've gone to "Yes I think Obama is a Muslim" to "I don't know if he's a Muslim." Which I guess is an improvement.

Which has always been my view.

Well when given a choice between Carson and a blustering birther bigot like Trump, the birthers chose Trump. Choice matters.

Some supported Carson. Others support Trump. Hey, that's how it works with elections. Didn't anyone tell you that? To try to make "racial hay" out of is ridiculous, but par for the course for a progressive. And you haven't explained how people like Allen West, Tim Scott, Bobby Jindal or Nikki Hayley were elected if raaaacism.