"On White Privilege"

[A2SG]

And further...

The whole Oscar situation brings up another point, and illustrates what I've been trying to say here. We could look at the fact that not one single black actor was nominated for the award and blame Hollywood for being racist and all that....

Or....

We could stop and think, hey, were there really no performances by black actors that were oscar worthy? Maybe for next time, we in the Academy should look harder. Or maybe we casting managers should take steps to consider black actors more in the future than we have been doing...because there really are some exceptional black actors out here. And not just Samuel L. Jackson and Morgan Freeman....

And maybe, just maybe, we'd hear this:

"You know what...I hear this Idris Elba guy is pretty good.... Why aren't we considering him for Bond?"

-- A2SG, see how it all comes full circle.....

 

[Ana the Ist]

I strive for it, while acknowledging that we're not there yet.

-- A2SG, taking two steps forward and one step back is still progress...

Well this is where our fundamental difference lies...I'm for equality. You're for a double standard...which you think leads to equality. You should check into how that strategy worked out for feminism...it's been a rather tough go the past ten years or so, a lot of blowback.

I see the same thing slowly happening here ...and it won't be pretty when it hits.

You may expect whites to lick the boots of their fellow man, endure degradation for the perceived doings of past generations...you may even get it for awhile. Eventually though, the boot lickers get tired of the taste and put a halt to such things.

I don't see the need to reply to the rest of your comments. It's been a fun conversation.

 

[A2SG]

Well this is where our fundamental difference lies...I'm for equality. You're for a double standard...

What? Where did you get that from?

which you think leads to equality.

I acknowledge reality, but I hope for a better future. How that translates to being for a double standard, I can't even guess at.

You should check into how that strategy worked out for feminism...it's been a rather tough go the past ten years or so, a lot of blowback.

I see the same thing slowly happening here ...and it won't be pretty when it hits.

So what's your solution? How will knowing the cause of all the disparate issues of race, class and social structure bring us toward equality any better than working toward it will?

You may expect whites to lick the boots of their fellow man, endure degradation for the perceived doings of past generations...you may even get it for awhile. Eventually though, the boot lickers get tired of the taste and put a halt to such things.

Dude....I have no idea where you got that from!!!! I've never said anything even close to that.

I don't see the need to reply to the rest of your comments. It's been a fun conversation.

Um, I'd say you need to start reading them, if the above is any indication of what you've got so far.

-- A2SG, at a loss here.....you've gone so far out of your way to miss the points I've been trying to make, I don't even know where you went to.....

 

[Ana the Ist]

What? Where did you get that from?

Since you asked...

When you admitted the double standard you're holding. You can't ask that Elba be considered for a role because of his race and then pretend that he's the best man for the job. Either he's the best man for the job or he isn't. Same goes for Oscars...black performances got votes...many votes, but not enough to be nominated. There's no racism in it and that's equality.

To put it in another way...if they (for example) counted a vote twice if it's for a minority performer...would it be wrong to say that "he only won because he's black"?

In reality, that's exactly accurate.

I acknowledge reality, but I hope for a better future. How that translates to being for a double standard, I can't even guess at.

See above....or even re-read your own posts.

"We shouldn't consider race here!"

"Well we should consider race here"

"Equality here"

"Double standard please"

So what's your solution? How will knowing the cause of all the disparate issues of race, class and social structure bring us toward equality any better than working toward it will?

Ahem...excuse me while I ascend the soapbox...

It's not a problem. We have equality under the law. We have advantages and disadvantages because we are different...in different ways. Some rise above their disadvantages...some let them define their lives. Some win some lose.

It's easy to look at the winners and blame them while crying for the losers. Some notion of perfect equality/equilibrium has never been achieved...I don't think it can. It's too fundamental to human nature. We compete...we struggle...the best amongst us rise, the worst fall. It will never be equal...nor should it be.

It is this struggle, the rise and fall, the advantages and disadvantages, the differences...which make life beautiful. The notion that we should raise up the losers and cut down the winners is poisonous. It's a slow death for us all...to eliminate these differences. To breed in equality. We would decay instead of advancing.

I don't owe a thing for my white privilege. I'm not ashamed not do I feel guilty for my heritage. I imagine that it's largely because I understand the big picture throughout history more than most and I don't automatically buy into notions of victimhood. I understand that this is an intrinsic aspect of humanity.

Dude....I have no idea where you got that from!!!! I've never said anything even close to that.

Your response to my mention of the blatant racism that anyone could view on t.v. today involved something like "being noble about it"...did it not? The notion that I should just accept it? It's something I don't think you'd ever suggest to one of your black friends...so again, the double standard.

Um, I'd say you need to start reading them, if the above is any indication of what you've got so far.

-- A2SG, at a loss here.....you've gone so far out of your way to miss the points I've been trying to make, I don't even know where you went to.....

Maybe you should read them again yourself.

 

[Paidiske]

You can't possibly defend his racism towards me as in some way being my fault without perpetrating a massive hypocrisy.

I didn't see any racism towards you (or in general). What I saw was the recognition that our society is unjustly structured.

That isn't racism.

I don't feel guilty for my white heritage (and believe me, if I were into inter-generational guilt here there'd be plenty for me to buy into). But I recognise that as a citizen and full participant in my society I have a responsibility to try to ensure that it operates justly.

Nothing about guilt; everything about responsibility. Isn't that what you've been pushing for?

Or is responsibility only worthy when it's about personal gain instead of helping others?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't see any racism towards you (or in general). What I saw was the recognition that our society is unjustly structured.

That isn't racism.

I don't feel guilty for my white heritage (and believe me, if I were into inter-generational guilt here there'd be plenty for me to buy into). But I recognise that as a citizen and full participant in my society I have a responsibility to try to ensure that it operates justly.

Nothing about guilt; everything about responsibility. Isn't that what you've been pushing for?

Or is responsibility only worthy when it's about personal gain instead of helping others?

So for him to assume that I'm racist...just because I'm white...isn't racism?

 

[Paidiske]

So for him to assume that I'm racist...just because I'm white...isn't racism?

I didn't see him do that.

 

[A2SG]

Since you asked...

When you admitted the double standard you're holding.

I'm not holding any double standard. I acknowledge that one exists, but that is not the same thing as agreeing with it.

You can't ask that Elba be considered for a role because of his race and then pretend that he's the best man for the job.

Um, I think Idris Elba should be considered for the role of James Bond BECAUSE HE'S AN AMAZING ACTOR WHO CAN HANDLE THE ROLE, AND BE BRILLIANT IN IT!!!!

It's exactly the same reason I didn't suggest Jaleel White for the role.

Either he's the best man for the job or he isn't.

My question is, why should his race make him ineligible for consideration?

Same goes for Oscars...black performances got votes...many votes, but not enough to be nominated. There's no racism in it and that's equality.

You sure about that? Tell me, how many black performances were viewed? Out of how many total performances? How many votes did black actors get, in total?

If you want to make the case that all races were treated equally, then it's up to you to back that up, and prove it.

To put it in another way...if they (for example) counted a vote twice if it's for a minority performer...would it be wrong to say that "he only won because he's black"?

In reality, that's exactly accurate.

Who suggested counting black performers twice?

See above....or even re-read your own posts.

"We shouldn't consider race here!"

"Well we should consider race here"

"Equality here"

"Double standard please"

Here are my exact words:

One, race shouldn't be considered when hiring generally...because skin color is rarely a relevant job requirement.

Two, there are times when it is. Actors are often hired based on appearance just as much as on acting ability, and that's an entirely relevant job requirement.

Granted, that isn't to say it always is. Some roles can just as easily be played by a white actor as by a black one. We should only make race a criteria when it needs to be one, and strive to ignore it when it isn't.

Here's the gist: we should only consider race when it's relevant, not when it isn't.

That isn't a double standard at all. It's one standard: relevance.

It's exactly the same as if I'd said we shouldn't consider someone's ability at math unless it's relevant to the job. Which is why it isn't a double standard to consider math ability when hiring an accountant, but not when hiring a lifeguard.

Ahem...excuse me while I ascend the soapbox...

It's not a problem. We have equality under the law. We have advantages and disadvantages because we are different...in different ways. Some rise above their disadvantages...some let them define their lives. Some win some lose.

It's easy to look at the winners and blame them while crying for the losers. Some notion of perfect equality/equilibrium has never been achieved...I don't think it can. It's too fundamental to human nature. We compete...we struggle...the best amongst us rise, the worst fall. It will never be equal...nor should it be.

It is this struggle, the rise and fall, the advantages and disadvantages, the differences...which make life beautiful. The notion that we should raise up the losers and cut down the winners is poisonous. It's a slow death for us all...to eliminate these differences. To breed in equality. We would decay instead of advancing.

I don't owe a thing for my white privilege. I'm not ashamed not do I feel guilty for my heritage. I imagine that it's largely because I understand the big picture throughout history more than most and I don't automatically buy into notions of victimhood. I understand that this is an intrinsic aspect of humanity.

Okay. You might want to note, then, that I never, at any point, suggested you owe anything, nor that you should feel guilty for anything. So you may want to consider directing that rant to whomever said you should.

Your response to my mention of the blatant racism that anyone could view on t.v. today involved something like "being noble about it"...did it not?

No, it did not.

The notion that I should just accept it? It's something I don't think you'd ever suggest to one of your black friends...so again, the double standard.

You're mistaken.

Maybe you should read them again yourself.

No need, I know what I said.

Tell you what, if you want to comment on anything I've said, go back and quote it directly first. That might help clear up some misconceptions you have about what I actually said.

-- A2SG, because you're way off base here, dude.....

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't see him do that.

Do you think he would've made the same comments to a black man?

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think he'd have been having the same conversation with a black man, honestly.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't think he'd have been having the same conversation with a black man, honestly.

It wasn't a conversation...he shouted expletives and accusations of racism over a perceived slight which he was wrong about.

Us passing on the seats had nothing to do with race.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm not holding any double standard. I acknowledge that one exists, but that is not the same thing as agreeing with it.

....ok....

Do you want to go over this again? Should race be an issue of consideration or not?

Also...Since you seem to think that it should be at least part of the time...when are those times?

Um, I think Idris Elba should be considered for the role of James Bond BECAUSE HE'S AN AMAZING ACTOR WHO CAN HANDLE THE ROLE, AND BE BRILLIANT IN IT!!!!

It's exactly the same reason I didn't suggest Jaleel White for the role.

Not getting upset are you?

When I thought that we agreed that the best actor should get the role...I mentioned how I don't see how your mention of Elba was relevant to the topic. Your reply was...

"You don't see how defying tradition is relevant to the issue of trying to see things differently as regards race?"

What does that have to do with casting the best actor as Bond? Is it about casting the best actor...or "defying tradition" so that people see race differently? You understand how those are two completely different issues with completely different possible outcomes...right?

If you're saying that he should be considered because he's a great actor...I'm all with you. If you're saying that he should be considered because he's black and that's "defying tradition" (as you put it)...then I disagree entirely.

Just know that if it's about talent...not race...and he doesn't get the part, it's rather hypocritical to claim racism in that context.

My question is, why should his race make him ineligible for consideration?

Who said it did? Do you think someone is stopping him from auditioning? Do you think the casting director laughed when he showed up for auditions and said "Sorry, whites only."?

You sure about that? Tell me, how many black performances were viewed? Out of how many total performances? How many votes did black actors get, in total?

Shortly after the controversy began...several members of the academy mentioned they voted for several black performers. If you want to cry racism...It's on you to show that's the case and they're lying.

If you want to make the case that all races were treated equally, then it's up to you to back that up, and prove it.

Wow...so now we just assume racism and it's on the accused to prove their innocence?

I guess that's the downside of white privilege, isn't it? Labeled a racist without evidence...then it's up to you to clear your name. Guilty before innocent.

Who suggested counting black performers twice?

I did.

Here are my exact words:

​

Here's the gist: we should only consider race when it's relevant, not when it isn't.

That isn't a double standard at all. It's one standard: relevance.

When is it relevant? When should we treat blacks differently than whites?

It's exactly the same as if I'd said we shouldn't consider someone's ability at math unless it's relevant to the job. Which is why it isn't a double standard to consider math ability when hiring an accountant, but not when hiring a lifeguard.

See above.

Okay. You might want to note, then, that I never, at any point, suggested you owe anything, nor that you should feel guilty for anything. So you may want to consider directing that rant to whomever said you should.

Glad we cleared that up.

No, it did not.

I looked up nobless oblige when you used it. What did you mean by it in that context?

You're mistaken.

We'll see.

No need, I know what I said.

Tell you what, if you want to comment on anything I've said, go back and quote it directly first. That might help clear up some misconceptions you have about what I actually said.

-- A2SG, because you're way off base here, dude.....

I went back and did exactly that...

I left out the part where you said it would be "progress" if Elba got the part...implying that it isn't progress if a white actor gets the part.

I'm not sure what you think is progressing though...can't we just agree it should always go to the best actor whether they are white or black? Keep in mind your feelings about the Oscars in your reply.

 

[Paidiske]

It wasn't a conversation...he shouted expletives and accusations of racism over a perceived slight which he was wrong about.

Us passing on the seats had nothing to do with race.

Sorry, my confusion. I thought you were saying A2SG was accusing you of being racist.

In the other scenario... he didn't just assume were racist just because you were white. He assumed you were racist because you were white and your behaviour was consistent with a racist attitude. (Note: I am not saying you were racist. I am saying that to the reasonable outside observer, you could have seemed racist).

 

[A2SG]

....ok....

Do you want to go over this again? Should race be an issue of consideration or not?

Only if it's relevant.

Also...Since you seem to think that it should be at least part of the time...when are those times?

When it's relevant.

Which does happen, albeit rarely.

Not getting upset are you?

When I thought that we agreed that the best actor should get the role...I mentioned how I don't see how your mention of Elba was relevant to the topic. Your reply was...

"You don't see how defying tradition is relevant to the issue of trying to see things differently as regards race?"

What does that have to do with casting the best actor as Bond?

If you only look at the same kinds of actors for any role, you might not see that the best choice is a different type than you'd expect.

In other words, let talent dictate the choice, not tradition.

Is it about casting the best actor...or "defying tradition" so that people see race differently? You understand how those are two completely different issues with completely different possible outcomes...right?

If it was only about defying tradition, I'd agree. But it never was. Idris Elba would be an amazing James Bond, and I'd hate to see the producers never even consider him because of his race. So casting Elba as Bond would be great for two reasons: he'd be great in the role, and casting him would break barriers. In that order.

If you're saying that he should be considered because he's a great actor...I'm all with you. If you're saying that he should be considered because he's black and that's "defying tradition" (as you put it)...then I disagree entirely.

You might want to go back and see the very first thing I said on the subject.

Just know that if it's about talent...not race...and he doesn't get the part, it's rather hypocritical to claim racism in that context.

And when did I do that, exactly?

Who said it did? Do you think someone is stopping him from auditioning? Do you think the casting director laughed when he showed up for auditions and said "Sorry, whites only."?

For some, he is disqualified due to race. Then again, for some, so was Daniel Craig because he's blonde, so....

Shortly after the controversy began...several members of the academy mentioned they voted for several black performers. If you want to cry racism...It's on you to show that's the case and they're lying.

If I were to do that, I would.

Since I didn't, I think I'll continue to rely on what I actually said.

Wow...so now we just assume racism and it's on the accused to prove their innocence?

Not what I said. I simply said that if you make a claim, it's up to you to back it up.

I guess that's the downside of white privilege, isn't it? Labeled a racist without evidence...then it's up to you to clear your name. Guilty before innocent.

Tell you what, take that up with whoever labeled you a racist.

'Cause it wasn't me.

I did.

Just so we're clear on that.

When is it relevant? When should we treat blacks differently than whites?

When it's relevant, and only when it's relevant. Which is rare.

We touched on it when we mentioned actors. Let's say you were casting a movie about a black slave in the deep south, and your story centered on race. Casting Summer Glau wouldn't be the best choice, would it? Even though she's a great actress.

I looked up nobless oblige when you used it. What did you mean by it in that context?

Simpy this: if you're on the bottom and you pick a fight with those above you, you're seen as brave, but if you're on top and you pick a fight with those below you, you're seen as a bully. Not agreeing with this perception or disagreeing with it, simply acknowledging that it happens.

But I grant you, it was still a snarky comment. I'm often snarky in my sigs.

I went back and did exactly that...

I left out the part where you said it would be "progress" if Elba got the part...implying that it isn't progress if a white actor gets the part.

In the context of racial equality, it wouldn't be. Casting Daniel Craig as Bond did nothing for racial equality....though he was still a good choice. (Though, admittedly, only one of his movies was really good...but that wasn't his fault.)

I'm not sure what you think is progressing though...can't we just agree it should always go to the best actor whether they are white or black? Keep in mind your feelings about the Oscars in your reply.

I agree the best actor should always get the role. I just think a lot of really great actors aren't even considered for certain roles because they're not white, since white is seen by many as the default.

-- A2SG, in other words, white privilege.....

 

[Rick Otto]

Sounds like defensiveness, as in "Thou protesteth too much".
Seems to based on a hopelessness due to DNA sovereignty.
But I have to admit, I envy the feeling of safe innocence that a hard shiny shell seems to offer.

 

[Rick Otto]

Sorry, my confusion. I thought you were saying A2SG was accusing you of being racist.

In the other scenario... he didn't just assume were racist just because you were white. He assumed you were racist because you were white and your behaviour was consistent with a racist attitude. (Note: I am not saying you were racist. I am saying that to the reasonable outside observer, you could have seemed racist).

But "The black guy did it."


I'm an expert on blame, not solutions.

 

[Rick Otto]

And with black racism comes...

I'll wait.

Justification of white indifference.

 

[Ana the Ist]

In the other scenario... he didn't just assume were racist just because you were white. He assumed you were racist because you were white and your behaviour was consistent with a racist attitude.

What?

In what way was my behavior "consistent with a racist attitude"?

Is that the first conclusion you jump to whenever someone doesn't sit next to you?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Justification of white indifference.

Well I don't get to use black racism as an excuse for my behavior do I?

Nope.

Being white won't convince anyone I wasn't speeding will it? It certainly wouldn't justify me acting like that black man in the theatre would it? What if I shouted racial epithets at him and called him racist for not sitting next to me?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Only if it's relevant.



When it's relevant.

Which does happen, albeit rarely.

Like when the police respond to an armed robbery at a store. The description is of a black man late 20s wearing a dark hoodie and jeans, 180-220, 6'2"...driving an older model dark colored sedan.

Police would then be justified pulling over a suspect of that description...yes? (I've literally got hundreds of these if you intend to give no examples of "when it's relevant")

If you only look at the same kinds of actors for any role, you might not see that the best choice is a different type than you'd expect.

In other words, let talent dictate the choice, not tradition.

Uh huh...so you would be in favor of remaking the Cosby show with an all white cast...assuming that they gave the best auditions?

If it was only about defying tradition, I'd agree. But it never was. Idris Elba would be an amazing James Bond, and I'd hate to see the producers never even consider him because of his race. So casting Elba as Bond would be great for two reasons: he'd be great in the role, and casting him would break barriers. In that order.

Personally, I think he's getting a bit old. He's in his early 40s...right? So he's got one, maybe two good Bond films in him? Daniel Craig is only 8-10 years older...right?

If you want to break traditions...how about a German Michael Fassbender? Or a much younger Nicholas Hoult? I wouldn't think he'd have the physicality for the role...but after MM-Fury Road...

You might want to go back and see the very first thing I said on the subject.



And when did I do that, exactly?



For some, he is disqualified due to race. Then again, for some, so was Daniel Craig because he's blonde, so....

So...to be clear,we're in agreement that race shouldn't be a factor, for or against the actor.



If I were to do that, I would.

Since I didn't, I think I'll continue to rely on what I actually said.



Not what I said. I simply said that if you make a claim, it's up to you to back it up.

So you don't agree that the Oscars were racist....since that wasn't backed up by anything?

Tell you what, take that up with whoever labeled you a racist.

'Cause it wasn't me.

It's disgusting isn't it? Labeled racist simply because I'm white...wanna hear something else really messed up?

There's a giant pack of idiots out there who assume I have racial bias just because I work in the criminal justice system too.

When it's relevant, and only when it's relevant. Which is rare.

Oh I can think of some examples...wanna hear some?

We touched on it when we mentioned actors. Let's say you were casting a movie about a black slave in the deep south, and your story centered on race. Casting Summer Glau wouldn't be the best choice, would it? Even though she's a great actress.

No idea who that is...

Simpy this: if you're on the bottom and you pick a fight with those above you, you're seen as brave, but if you're on top and you pick a fight with those below you, you're seen as a bully. Not agreeing with this perception or disagreeing with it, simply acknowledging that it happens.

But I grant you, it was still a snarky comment. I'm often snarky in my sigs.

A2SG I'm shocked...is that how you see black people? As "below you"?

That's horribly racist and not how I see it at all.

In the context of racial equality, it wouldn't be. Casting Daniel Craig as Bond did nothing for racial equality....though he was still a good choice. (Though, admittedly, only one of his movies was really good...but that wasn't his fault.)

I don't see what it does for racial equality. I don't see black men as incapable of playing Bond...so one who does won't change my views. Frankly, I think it's just a lot of white people feeling good about their own racism by saying "See? I'm watching a black James Bond...I'm not racist!"

I agree the best actor should always get the role. I just think a lot of really great actors aren't even considered for certain roles because they're not white, since white is seen by many as the default.

-- A2SG, in other words, white privilege.....

Why? Who do you think got left out? Frankly, I saw Straight Outta Compton...didn't see Creed (though it looked more like a cheap Rocky franchise rip-off than an Oscar movie) and I don't disagree with the nominations at all.

Certainly you'd understand that a year when so many white actors and actresses give great performances...it's not at all unreasonable to see a glut of white faces nominated?