"On White Privilege"

[Rick Otto]

He got exactly the same treatment that I would give anyone else...regardless of skin color. That's more than he gave me.

You are a blameless pillar of virtue. Carry on, Christian soldierm

 

[A2SG]

You asked if I wanted your opinion on the matter regardless.

Okay. I gave it.

Now...what else can we discuss?

-- A2SG, wanna bat around how cool Haley Atwell would be as the Doctor next?

 

[Ana the Ist]

You are a blameless pillar of virtue. Carry on, Christian soldierm

I'm an atheist. Save your sarcasm for someone who cares.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Okay. I gave it.

Now...what else can we discuss?

-- A2SG, wanna bat around how cool Haley Atwell would be as the Doctor next?

So what's your opinion on the matter?

That your opinion doesn't matter?

 

[A2SG]

So what's your opinion on the matter?

That your opinion doesn't matter?

I said two things:

1. That.

2. I still think Idris Elba would be amazing as Bond.

-- A2SG, and I say the latter despite the former being entirely true.....

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm an atheist. Save your sarcasm for someone who cares.

My sarcasm was about your lack of caring.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I said two things:

1. That.

2. I still think Idris Elba would be amazing as Bond.

-- A2SG, and I say the latter despite the former being entirely true.....

Gotcha...so you're going to dodge the question by claiming that our opinions don't matter/aren't worth discussing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

My sarcasm was about your lack of caring.

If I respected you Rick, that might bother me for a moment.

 

[A2SG]

Gotcha...so you're going to dodge the question by claiming that our opinions don't matter/aren't worth discussing.

What, you didn't read #2?

How about this...if you're trying to ask me something specific, ask me directly. Because as far as I can tell, I've answered everything to the best of my ability.

-- A2SG, and I'm unsure where you want this discussion to go.....

 

[Ana the Ist]

What, you didn't read #2?

How about this...if you're trying to ask me something specific, ask me directly. Because as far as I can tell, I've answered everything to the best of my ability.

-- A2SG, and I'm unsure where you want this discussion to go.....

This is the question I was hoping to get an answer for...

"So, let's imagine a hypothetical situation...

Where Elba and a white actor give equally impressive performances...and they are the two being considered. The casting director decides that Elba's blackness is more likely to hurt sales than help...so he hires the white actor.

This is acceptable in your eyes (since he considered race a factor)? Or is it only acceptable if he shares your view on how race is a factor?"

We already established that you believe race should be a factor. You even explained why it's a factor for Elba. What I want to know is if it's equally a factor for a white actor...or if you're holding a double standard. That's what the little hypothetical scenario is driving at...

I suspect that you already understand all this though and that's why your attempted dodge is the only answer you've put forth. One would wonder though, if you only give your opinion when "it matters" why you would bother responding to a thread like this at all.

Edit- You could, for example, respond with "I find that situation acceptable since race is equally a factor for the white actor."

Or you could respond with something like "I don't think that the white actor's race is an equally valid factor....for such and such reasons."

I tried to make the question simple and dichotomous...so you wouldn't have any difficulty in answering.

 

[A2SG]

This is the question I was hoping to get an answer for...

"So, let's imagine a hypothetical situation...

Where Elba and a white actor give equally impressive performances...and they are the two being considered. The casting director decides that Elba's blackness is more likely to hurt sales than help...so he hires the white actor.

This is acceptable in your eyes (since he considered race a factor)? Or is it only acceptable if he shares your view on how race is a factor?"

We already established that you believe race should be a factor. You even explained why it's a factor for Elba. What I want to know is if it's equally a factor for a white actor...or if you're holding a double standard. That's what the little hypothetical scenario is driving at...

I suspect that you already understand all this though and that's why your attempted dodge is the only answer you've put forth. One would wonder though, if you only give your opinion when "it matters" why you would bother responding to a thread like this at all.

Edit- You could, for example, respond with "I find that situation acceptable since race is equally a factor for the white actor."

Or you could respond with something like "I don't think that the white actor's race is an equally valid factor....for such and such reasons."

I tried to make the question simple and dichotomous...so you wouldn't have any difficulty in answering.

I thought I did answer this, but let me try again.

I think Idris Elba would be an amazing choice to play James Bond, for all the reasons previously given.

Now, could a white actor also be amazing as Bond? Sure. Several have, in fact. The difference being, of course, that a white Bond has been done already, while a black Bond hasn't.

So, the question is, should the producers of Bond do the same thing they've done before, or be different?

I know how I'd vote. If anyone asked.

Now, if you're asking me if a white actor can bring something different to the Bond franchise that no other actor can, or has? Sure, that's always possible.

Would he be a better choice than Idris Elba?

There is literally no way to know, since there is no other guy to compare Elba to.

So, having put that to bed, I need to address this:

We already established that you believe race should be a factor.

This is starting to really bug me, dude. That is not what I said.

My exact words:

Race is a factor. It can't not be, not when we're considering actors, who embody a character. Actors are unique in this regard, of course; this criteria doesn't apply in the vast majority of hiring issues.​

I did not say that I believed race should be a factor, I specifically said that race IS a factor WHEN CASTING ACTORS. This isn't a belief, it's a fact. A rather obvious one I'd say...Frank Sinatra would naturally bring something entirely different to a role than Sammy Davis Jr. would, and both are fine actors in their own rights.

I also went on to say:

So, while race is A factor, it's one among many.​

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth in the process.

-- A2SG, please try not to confuse what is with what someone believes....they're not the same thing....

 

[Ana the Ist]

I thought I did answer this, but let me try again.

You didn't...in fact it's starting to appear as if you think that answering other questions that I didn't ask will somehow answer the one I did.

I think Idris Elba would be an amazing choice to play James Bond, for all the reasons previously given.

I didn't ask if you thought Elba would be a great Bond...nor did I ask you who you thought would make a great Bond. This doesn't answer my question.

Now, could a white actor also be amazing as Bond? Sure. Several have, in fact. The difference being, of course, that a white Bond has been done already, while a black Bond hasn't.

I didn't ask you any of this either. This doesn't answer my question.

So, the question is, should the producers of Bond do the same thing they've done before, or be different?

No...that's not the question. The question I wrote is the question...not this one. They aren't even remotely related.

I know how I'd vote. If anyone asked.

No one did.

Now, if you're asking me if a white actor can bring something different to the Bond franchise that no other actor can, or has? Sure, that's always possible.

I'm not asking you that...I asked you a rather specific question and this isn't it.

Would he be a better choice than Idris Elba?

There is literally no way to know, since there is no other guy to compare Elba to.

I didn't ask this either...you're literally writing questions that I didn't ask, then answering them. Then you're pretending that they answer my question when they don't.

So, having put that to bed, I need to address this:

You didn't put anything to bed.

This is starting to really bug me, dude. That is not what I said.

My exact words:

Race is a factor. It can't not be, not when we're considering actors, who embody a character. Actors are unique in this regard, of course; this criteria doesn't apply in the vast majority of hiring issues.

​

​

I would disagree. I don't think we have to consider anything other than their abilities as actors. I think an entire Bond movie can be written without any reference to the character being black...in any way...and it would still be a Bond movie. I don't see why you think this is so inseparable.

Then again, it doesn't matter at all for the question I asked...which you didn't answer.

I did not say that I believed race should be a factor, I specifically said that race IS a factor WHEN CASTING ACTORS. This isn't a belief, it's a fact.

I don't think it is...

A rather obvious one I'd say...Frank Sinatra would naturally bring something entirely different to a role than Sammy Davis Jr. would, and both are fine actors in their own rights.

Not necessarily because he's white though.

I also went on to say:

So, while race is A factor, it's one among many.​

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth in the process.

When did I do that? I understand that you believe it's some inseparable fact that "race is a factor"...but I disagree. It's certainly not a fact that you can prove.

Again though, and this is key, none of that answers my question.

 

[A2SG]

You didn't...in fact it's starting to appear as if you think that answering other questions that I didn't ask will somehow answer the one I did.

Then let's skip ahead....

I would disagree. I don't think we have to consider anything other than their abilities as actors. I think an entire Bond movie can be written without any reference to the character being black...in any way...and it would still be a Bond movie. I don't see why you think this is so inseparable.

Okay.

When did I do that? I understand that you believe it's some inseparable fact that "race is a factor"...but I disagree.

Okay.

Unless one of us becomes a professional casting director, I don't see this going any further. We see things differently on this issue, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have no problem agreeing to disagree on the issue of race and casting.

-- A2SG, anything else you'd care to discuss?

 

[nightflight]

I said two things:

1. That.

2. I still think Idris Elba would be amazing as Bond.

-- A2SG, and I say the latter despite the former being entirely true.....

And I think Ryan Gosling would be great as Blade. But we both know how that would go over.

 

[Paidiske]

But this is the difference, I think. If white kids want to look up and see successful role models in all walks of life, this is easy for them. If black kids want the same, it is not quite so much.

I remember - sadly I have to admit to being quite a Star Trek fan - and I remember people writing about how much it meant to them to see minority group actors as Star Trek characters, because it might be the only time they got to see, say, a black man and a man "of middle Eastern appearance" (I'm thinking here of Avery Brooks and Alexander Siddig as Captain and Doctor, respectively, in Deep Space Nine) interacting together in a show which portrayed them as leaders and successful professionals, instead of criminals and drug dealers. (Or even earlier than that, the idea that a black woman could be a communications officer on a starship one day!)

And it's worth noting, by the way, that Alexander Siddig was born Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abderrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi, but I guess he thought he wasn't going to get so many roles if they had to fit that in the credit sequence...

Isn't it important that even as we doing something as apparently unimportant as create entertainment, we don't unintentionally reinforce the message that various minorities can't aspire to great things in life?

 

[nightflight]

But this is the difference, I think. If white kids want to look up and see successful role models in all walks of life, this is easy for them. If black kids want the same, it is not quite so much.

I remember - sadly I have to admit to being quite a Star Trek fan - and I remember people writing about how much it meant to them to see minority group actors as Star Trek characters, because it might be the only time they got to see, say, a black man and a man "of middle Eastern appearance" (I'm thinking here of Avery Brooks and Alexander Siddig as Captain and Doctor, respectively, in Deep Space Nine) interacting together in a show which portrayed them as leaders and successful professionals, instead of criminals and drug dealers. (Or even earlier than that, the idea that a black woman could be a communications officer on a starship one day!)

And it's worth noting, by the way, that Alexander Siddig was born Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abderrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi, but I guess he thought he wasn't going to get so many roles if they had to fit that in the credit sequence...

Isn't it important that even as we doing something as apparently unimportant as create entertainment, we don't unintentionally reinforce the message that various minorities can't aspire to great things in life?

Isn't it though more important that role models be actual people, and not representations on entertainment media? Besides, a minority became President of the United States; if that isn't enough for aspirations, then nothing is.

 

[Paidiske]

Isn't it though more important that role models be actual people, and not representations on entertainment media? Besides, a minority became President of the United States; if that isn't enough for aspirations, then nothing is.

I think entertainment shapes our sense of what is possible, and so - when it comes to building an aspirational outlook (wouldn't that be part of changing culture that we talked about?) - can be important alongside real life.

And amazingly, not everyone wants to become President of the United States, and that isn't the whole field of aspiration, not by a long shot!

 

[Rick Otto]

If I respected you Rick, that might bother me for a moment.

I missed it.
I'll have to take your word on it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And I think Ryan Gosling would be great as Blade. But we both know how that would go over.

I think he would bring a certain intangible whiteness to the role.

 

[Ana the Ist]

-- A2SG, anything else you'd care to discuss?

I don't much see the point...unless one of us ends up in a position to write policy which could help define hiring practices or police policy/training...then clearly opinions on the matter aren't much of a discussion topic.

Thanks though...it's refreshing to see that at least you didn't argue that you already answered the question.