"On White Privilege"

[nightflight]

I think entertainment shapes our sense of what is possible, and so - when it comes to building an aspirational outlook (wouldn't that be part of changing culture that we talked about?) - can be important alongside real life.

And amazingly, not everyone wants to become President of the United States, and that isn't the whole field of aspiration, not by a long shot!

But with all that, there are those things that make for success; a stable home, discipline, good work ethic; all those bourgeois things derided by our cultural betters. Equal opportunity doesn't equate equal outcome.

 

[nightflight]

I think he would bring a certain intangible whiteness to the role.

As would Ryan Reynolds as the new Shaft. Can you dig it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

But this is the difference, I think. If white kids want to look up and see successful role models in all walks of life, this is easy for them. If black kids want the same, it is not quite so much.

If you think that means a black man should be given some kind of extra consideration for a role that a white man shouldn't be given, that's fine...but you're advocating for a double standard. At that point, it's not wrong to think that possibly he got the role because he's black.

If however, you simply think the best actor should get the role without considering skin color...then you're for equality.

I remember - sadly I have to admit to being quite a Star Trek fan - and I remember people writing about how much it meant to them to see minority group actors as Star Trek characters, because it might be the only time they got to see, say, a black man and a man "of middle Eastern appearance" (I'm thinking here of Avery Brooks and Alexander Siddig as Captain and Doctor, respectively, in Deep Space Nine) interacting together in a show which portrayed them as leaders and successful professionals, instead of criminals and drug dealers. (Or even earlier than that, the idea that a black woman could be a communications officer on a starship one day!)

And it's worth noting, by the way, that Alexander Siddig was born Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abderrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi, but I guess he thought he wasn't going to get so many roles if they had to fit that in the credit sequence..

.

Funny that...he changed to conform instead of demanding that the entire industry change for him.

Some of us see that as a solution. "Others" ahem* see that as perpetuating a problem.

Isn't it important that even as we doing something as apparently unimportant as create entertainment, we don't unintentionally reinforce the message that various minorities can't aspire to great things in life?

I suppose if you find that particular message entertaining in some way...then it's relevant.

My opinion on the matter, as it isn't particularly influential, doesn't make any difference.

 

[Ana the Ist]

As would Ryan Reynolds as the new Shaft. Can you dig it?

Actually...I'd pay to see that lol.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I missed it.
I'll have to take your word on it.

What?

Weren't you the person who mentioned religious privilege to me earlier in the thread?

What did you mean if not the advantages of being christian?

 

[Ken-1122]

But this is the difference, I think. If white kids want to look up and see successful role models in all walks of life, this is easy for them. If black kids want the same, it is not quite so much.

I disagree. There are plenty of black actors and actresses for black kids to look up to. When I look at the way black people are represented in the movies, I see them represented in a much more positive light than they are in reality. I see more black doctors, lawyers, presidents, military generals, inventors, (even God) than you see in real life. If there is a place black people lack positive representation, it is definitely not in the entertainment industry.

Ken

 

[A2SG]

I don't much see the point...unless one of us ends up in a position to write policy which could help define hiring practices or police policy/training...then clearly opinions on the matter aren't much of a discussion topic.

Thanks though...it's refreshing to see that at least you didn't argue that you already answered the question.

Here's the problem I think we fell into: race isn't a factor at all, in any way whatsoever, in 99.99% of hiring decisions. We wound up discussing one of the .01% of times when it can figure in, even if only in a small, limited way.

Somehow, you took me saying that acting is unique in that race can factor into a casting decision, as one factor among many, and assumed that carried beyond the very specific area of casting actors. I have no idea how. I specified that it was unique in that way more than once.

So I really don't see any point to continuing to discuss the exception to the rule instead of the rule itself.

-- A2SG, but I'm open to further discussion of other aspects of this issue....

 

[Ana the Ist]

So I really don't see any point to continuing to discuss the exception to the rule instead of the rule itself.

What rule is that?

-- A2SG, but I'm open to further discussion of other aspects of this issue....

Don't much see the point, it's not as if our opinions matter here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Here's the problem I think we fell into: race isn't a factor at all, in any way whatsoever, in 99.99% of hiring decisions. We wound up discussing .....

We wound up discussing your example. It was the example that you brought up. You decided to bring it up for some reason...and now you don't want to talk about it.

That's fine....but let's not pretend like we magically arrived at this point and we don't know how. It was your example, your point.

 

[A2SG]

What rule is that?

Figure of speech.

Don't much see the point, it's not as if our opinions matter here.

Okay, if that's how you see it.

-- A2SG, it's been fun, though....

 

[Ana the Ist]

Figure of speech.



Okay, if that's how you see it.

-- A2SG, it's been fun, though....

It's the way you see it, isn't it?

I gave you a hypothetical situation and you dodged it by saying "my opinion doesn't matter."

What's the point of having a conversation with you then? Everything you've said is an opinion...you don't present any facts...where would you like to go with this?

 

[A2SG]

We wound up discussing your example. It was the example that you brought up. You decided to bring it up for some reason...and now you don't want to talk about it.

I did bring it up, as an example, for a point that we've gone quite a bit away from.

If you want to continue the discussion, I'm willing...but you and I aren't going to cast Bond for a future movie, so we have to move beyond that small scope.

That's fine....but let's not pretend like we magically arrived at this point and we don't know how. It was your example, your point.

I know how we got to this point, but I'm still unclear on how the unique field of film casting has much, if any, relevance to race relations and inequality in our society. I used it as an example of white privilege, not to define hiring decisions overall.

-- A2SG, and it somehow became far more of a focus than it needed to be....

 

[A2SG]

It's the way you see it, isn't it?

I gave you a hypothetical situation and you dodged it by saying "my opinion doesn't matter."

I offered my opinion: Elba would be amazing as Bond. How that's dodging, I don't know.

What's the point of having a conversation with you then? Everything you've said is an opinion...you don't present any facts...where would you like to go with this?

What facts are you missing, exactly?

-- A2SG, you seem to be wanting something from me that I'm not in a position to give you....sorry about that....

 

[Ana the Ist]

I did bring it up, as an example, for a point that we've gone quite a bit away from.

If you want to continue the discussion, I'm willing...but you and I aren't going to cast Bond for a future movie, so we have to move beyond that small scope.

I was only using your example to make a much larger point.

I know how we got to this point, but I'm still unclear on how the unique field of film casting has much, if any, relevance to race relations and inequality in our society. I used it as an example of white privilege, not to define hiring decisions overall.

-- A2SG, and it somehow became far more of a focus than it needed to be....

Then why bring it up? Did you want to discuss the point or not?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I offered my opinion: Elba would be amazing as Bond. How that's dodging, I don't know.

It didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you for that.

What facts are you missing, exactly?

-- A2SG, you seem to be wanting something from me that I'm not in a position to give you....sorry about that....

Any facts or studies that show any of your assertions. Systemic racial bias and all.

 

[A2SG]

I was only using your example to make a much larger point.

Not sure you did. Acting is a very specific thing, and hiring actors is a unique process that doesn't translate to any other profession. Decisions made about which actor is best for a role don't apply anywhere else.

So in that sense, the example doesn't carry very far.

Then why bring it up? Did you want to discuss the point or not?

I'm willing to, but I'm not sure I can give you what it is you're looking for.

-- A2SG, I'll try, though.....I'm nothing if not helpful!

 

[A2SG]

It didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you for that.

You asked if it'd be "acceptable" to me if someone else got the part.

I answered that it would be, because I have no choice but to accept it.

What part did I miss?

Any facts or studies that show any of your assertions. Systemic racial bias and all.

You mean the thing that I say is often undefinable and unquantifiable?

I'll get on that as soon as I can.

-- A2SG, you'll have to be patient, these kinda things take time....

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not sure you did. Acting is a very specific thing, and hiring actors is a unique process that doesn't translate to any other profession. Decisions made about which actor is best for a role don't apply anywhere else.

So in that sense, the example doesn't carry very far.



I'm willing to, but I'm not sure I can give you what it is you're looking for.

-- A2SG, I'll try, though.....I'm nothing if not helpful!

You've already made it clear that you intend to dodge. I don't see much of a point.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You asked if it'd be "acceptable" to me if someone else got the part.

I answered that it would be, because I have no choice but to accept it.

What part did I miss?

I asked if the example I gave was an acceptable consideration of race.

The point being that you seem to think considering race is only "progress" when it's a black actor.

It seems like a rather biased, double standard, to consider a black man's race as "progress" and a white man's as the status quo.

You mean the thing that I say is often undefinable and unquantifiable?

I'll get on that as soon as I can.

-- A2SG, you'll have to be patient, these kinda things take time....

Other times it's completely non-existent.

 

[A2SG]

You've already made it clear that you intend to dodge. I don't see much of a point.

See, this why I'm seeing this discussion with you as fruitless: I'm not dodging.

I'm doing my best. You're just asking questions I can't answer.

How can I know if some nameless, imaginary actor is better as Bond than Idris Elba would be? I don't know who that nameless imaginary actor is!!!! I can't tell you I'll like the guy if I don't know who he is, can I?

You want to know my tastes? Believe it or not, I'm not a huge Bond fan, but I have seen most of the films, and read a couple of the novels. I like Connery overall, Lazenby was a joke, Moore badly cast, Dalton better than people think he was, Brosnan okay but dull, and Craig very good (though only one of his movies was all that good, but that wasn't his fault).

I'm not sure if that tells you what you want to know about how willing I'd be to accept another white Bond, but there it is.

-- A2SG, while discussing Hollywood casting decisions is fun, it still doesn't translate to any other hiring decisions anywhere else....