On the Trinity vs Oneness

[justlookinla]

*** also on a side note I find it interesting that when you look at the two verses the translation has God and god. I mention this because it shows my point about it being implied.

(2 Cor 4:4) "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

(John 20:28) "my Lord and my God"

It's also that way in every single translation http://biblehub.com/john/20-28.htm

http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/4-4.htm

I'm aware that 'theos' has more than one meaning and I'm aware of Trinitarian bias in the translation of the Greek.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

That's basic polytheism. One God, the Father, invisible, one God, Jesus, visible.

Ok so then what is your view of (Matt 28:29) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit

I thought you said He was always God?

No not the flesh and blood body of Jesus. The eternal word of God was always God. (John 1:2) " the word was God". That word that was God became a man [Jesus] and now Jesus will always be a man for eternity. But I also believe he took the 'form' of a man in the OT when scripture says 'God appeared'. I know you don't view it this way, I'm just expressing my view of scripture. Well.... The orthodox view

As I pointed out, 'theos' can men more than just a reference to the one God.

yes, I guess there's no more point in going through this.
We have both expressed our views.

Yes, I've studied that.

[emoji106] ok

 

[justlookinla]

Ok so then what is your view of (Matt 28:29) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit

I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm for baptism.

No not the flesh and blood body of Jesus. The eternal word of God was always God. (John 1:2) " the word was God". That word that was God became a man [Jesus] and now Jesus will always be a man for eternity. But I also believe he took the 'form' of a man in the OT when scripture says 'God appeared'. I know you don't view it this way, I'm just expressing my view of scripture. Well.... The orthodox view

Orthodox is in the eye of the beholder.

yes, I guess there's no more point in going through this.
We have both expressed our views.




[emoji106] ok

Ok, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Ok, thanks for the discussion.

Thank you as well, I actually had a good time with it. I enjoy these discussions. Have a merry Christmas

 

[dms1972]

That's basic polytheism. One God, the Father, invisible, one God, Jesus, visible.

Polytheism would be something like a pantheon of gods, such as in Greek mythology.

In the west chrisitan believe in one God in three persons, but when in speaking of persons what is meant are persons-in-relationship, not independent persons.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18

http://biblehub.com/john/1-18.htm

Its really hard on our reason to understand the Holy Trinity. Faith really has to turn human reason around first. But I really don't think one can understand before one is a christian. Mere Christianity by CS Lewis, or True Spirituality by Francis Schaeffer are two very good introductions to Christianity.

For myself I find Lewis very helpful and he doesn't get into the Doctrine of the Trinity too soon in his book.

I also have done a review on my Blog page of another excellent book The Forgotten Father which may answer the question that is ongoing in this thread about the Divine obedience.

 

[justlookinla]

Polytheism would be something like a pantheon of gods, such as in Greek mythology.

In the west chrisitan believe in one God in three persons, but when in speaking of persons what is meant are persons-in-relationship, not independent persons.

If they are each God, then they are also Gods in relationship.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared

him. John 1:18

http://biblehub.com/john/1-18.htm

Its really hard on our reason to understand the Holy Trinity.

Many Trinitarians say 'it's a mystery' that cannot be understood.

Faith really has to turn human reason around first. But I really don't think one can understand before one is a christian.

Are you suggesting that embracing the Trinity is a requisite for being a Christian?

Mere Christianity by CS Lewis, or True Spirituality by Francis Schaeffer are two very good introductions to Christianity.

For myself I find Lewis very helpful and he doesn't get into the Doctrine of the Trinity too soon in his book.

I also have done a review on my Blog page of another excellent book The Forgotten Father which may answer the question that is ongoing in this thread about the Divine obedience.

I find the bible to be the best introduction to Christianity.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I'd not say that Jesus is 'just' the Son of God, He's much more than that. But He's not God.

I would ask "What did Jesus say about himself?".

Jesus Said He Existed Before Abraham
"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."
The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"4

Jesus Said to See Him is the Same as Seeing God
Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."5

"No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!"
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied."
Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"6

Jesus Said He Could Forgive Sins
"...that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God..."7

He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."8

Jesus Said He Is the Judge and Can Grant Eternal Life
"For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father."9

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."10

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."11

"For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day."12

Jesus Said He Was the Same as God
"The Father and I are one."
Once again the people picked up stones to kill him.
Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?"
They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."13

Most importantly, Jesus said he was God. If it is not true, would he have lied.

Jesus, in response to the Pharisees’ question “Who do you think you are?” said, “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds” (John 8:56–59). The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.

If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.” The Greek words translated “was,” in the case of Abraham, and “am,” in the case of Jesus, are quite different. The words chosen by the Spirit make it clear that Abraham was “brought into being,” but Jesus existed eternally (see John 1:1). There is no doubt that the Jews understood what He was saying because they took up stones to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). Such a statement, if not true, was blasphemy and the punishment prescribed by the Mosaic Law was death (Leviticus 24:11–14). But Jesus committed no blasphemy; He was and is God, the second Person of the Godhead, equal to the Father in every way.

 

[justlookinla]

I would ask "What did Jesus say about himself?".

Jesus Said He Existed Before Abraham
"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."
The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"4

No doubt He existed before Abraham.

Jesus Said to See Him is the Same as Seeing God
Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."5

He was the express image of God.

"No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!"
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied."
Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"6

And He continues on.....

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.​

Jesus Said He Could Forgive Sins
"...that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God..."7

He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."8

Yes, His God and Father gave Him that authority.

Jesus Said He Is the Judge and Can Grant Eternal Life
"For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father."9

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."10

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."11

"For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day."12

All given to Him by His God and Father.

Jesus Said He Was the Same as God

No He didn't.

"The Father and I are one."
Once again the people picked up stones to kill him.
Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?"
They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."13

Joh 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
​

Most importantly, Jesus said he was God. If it is not true, would he have lied.

Jesus, in response to the Pharisees’ question “Who do you think you are?” said, “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds” (John 8:56–59). The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.

If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.” The Greek words translated “was,” in the case of Abraham, and “am,” in the case of Jesus, are quite different. The words chosen by the Spirit make it clear that Abraham was “brought into being,” but Jesus existed eternally (see John 1:1). There is no doubt that the Jews understood what He was saying because they took up stones to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). Such a statement, if not true, was blasphemy and the punishment prescribed by the Mosaic Law was death (Leviticus 24:11–14). But Jesus committed no blasphemy; He was and is God, the second Person of the Godhead, equal to the Father in every way.

Jesus never said He was God. Individuals in that passage who missed entirely who He was attempted to make Him say something He never said. They were so ignorant of the identity of Jesus that they rejected Him and had Him killed.

 

[dms1972]

To Justlookinla:

What do you mean by 'God'?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Jesus never said He was God. Individuals in that passage who missed entirely who He was attempted to make Him say something He never said. They were so ignorant of the identity of Jesus that they rejected Him and had Him killed.

Can you give any supporting evidence to support that claim?

Why did Jesus not correct them? Was Jesus guilty of blasphemy? Explain.

 

[justlookinla]

To Justlookinla:

What do you mean by 'God'?

The entity from which all proceeded, the source of all power.

 

[justlookinla]

Can you give any supporting evidence to support that claim?

1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Why did Jesus not correct them? Was Jesus guilty of blasphemy? Explain.

He did correct them.....

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was not guilty of blasphemy.

 

[dms1972]

What do you mean by 'God'?

The entity from which all proceeded, the source of all power.

Ok, well I am not really well up on the 'oneness' teaching you talked about. It probably comes down to different conceptions of God.

 

[dms1972]

I'd not say that Jesus is 'just' the Son of God, He's much more than that. But He's not God.

Good discussion even if I am struggling to understand you - and you are right to begin from the Bible not the theology of a denomination.

By all means stick to the Bible, however when you say Jesus is the Son of God that has to mean something. And theology attempts to clarify that, and avoid misunderstandings. Its just that it is beyond our minds to grasp fully. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Once one tries to explain it may seem like one is saying there are three Gods but thats not so. What God begets is also God. What God makes is not God.

The Nicene Creed says: We believe in One Lord Jesus Christ, the only- begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds.

I know that a Creed is not the Bible, but are you saying this is not Biblical?

In any case I'd say go by the Bible particularly John chapter 1, and Hebrews chapter 1.

 

[justlookinla]

What do you mean by 'God'?



Ok, well I am not really well up on the 'oneness' teaching you talked about. It probably comes down to different conceptions of God.

It does.

 

[justlookinla]

Good discussion even if I am struggling to understand you - and you are right to begin from the Bible not the theology of a denomination.

By all means stick to the Bible, however when you say Jesus is the Son of God that has to mean something. And theology attempts to clarify that, and avoid misunderstandings. Its just that it is beyond our minds to grasp fully. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Once one tries to explain it may seem like one is saying there are three Gods but thats not so. What God begets is also God. What God makes is not God.

The Nicene Creed says: We believe in One Lord Jesus Christ, the only- begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds.

I know that a Creed is not the Bible, but are you saying this is not Biblical?

I don't disagree with the statement. Jesus proceeded from and exists apart from His God and Father. Conversely, the Father did not proceed from anyone.

In any case I'd say go by the Bible particularly John chapter 1, and Hebrews chapter 1.

I'm very familiar with those passages.

 

[linqinqin]

John 14:5-14
5 Thomas asked, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going. How can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you have really known me, you will also know the Father. From now on you know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father; that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus replied, “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been with you all this time? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I have spoken to you I don’t speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Trust me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or at least believe on account of the works themselves. 12 I assure you that whoever believes in me will do the works that I do. They will do even greater works than these because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask for in my name, so that the Father can be glorified in the Son. 14 When you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it."
so "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?...I'm in the Father and the Father is in me". It's clear that They are the same spirit.

 

[justlookinla]

John 14:5-14
5 Thomas asked, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going. How can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you have really known me, you will also know the Father. From now on you know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father; that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus replied, “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been with you all this time? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I have spoken to you I don’t speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Trust me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or at least believe on account of the works themselves. 12 I assure you that whoever believes in me will do the works that I do. They will do even greater works than these because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask for in my name, so that the Father can be glorified in the Son. 14 When you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it."
so "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?...I'm in the Father and the Father is in me". It's clear that They are the same spirit.

What's clear is that one is in the other. Scripture does not indicate that 'I am in myself', but rather one entity is in another entity.

 

[linqinqin]

What's clear is that one is in the other. Scripture does not indicate that 'I am in myself', but rather one entity is in another entity.

None of the great men can give a clear explanation; most can only understand in doctrines or in letters, but no one can fully comprehend the inner meaning of him. This is because such a “great three-in-one God” in people’s mind does not exist at all. And this is because people have never seen “God’s real image,” and no one has been fortunate to visit God’s dwelling place so as to investigate what things there are in God’s lying place, investigate how many thousands or millions of generations there have been in “God’s family,” and investigate how many parts there are in God’s original constitution. And the most important things to investigate are: how old the Holy Father is, how old the Holy Son is, how old the Holy Spirit is, what they each look like, and how they are separated and how they are united into one. It is a pity that over so many years, no one has been able to find all these things out; and all people have been “guessing.” For no one has ever had a visit to the heaven and then issued an “investigation report” to all mankind, so as to make known the truth of the facts to all the zealous and devout religious believers who are concerned about the three-in-one God. Of course, people are not entirely to blame for their having such a notion. Why should the Holy Father Jehovah have not had the Holy Son Jesus with him when he created mankind? If they had both been called Jehovah at the beginning, everything would have been all right. The blame should go to Jehovah God for his momentary mistake that when he created the world he did not have the Holy Son and the Holy Spirit with him but did the work by himself. If they had done the work together, wouldn’t they have been one? If God had only had the name of Jehovah from the beginning to the end and had not had the name of Jesus of the Age of the Grace or had still been called Jehovah in the Age of the Grace, then wouldn’t God have been spared from the suffering of being divided by mankind? Of course, Jehovah is not entirely to blame for all that. The Holy Spirit is to blame, who has been doing the work over the several thousand years with the name of Jehovah, and Jesus, and also the Holy Spirit, making people bewildered as to who is God. If the Holy Spirit himself had worked without taking any form or image, much less such names as Jesus, and people had not been able to touch him, much less see him, but had only heard the sound of thunder, wouldn’t it have been more beneficial to mankind? What should be done now? People’s notions are heaped as a mountain and accumulated as an ocean, so that the God of today cannot bear them and simply does not know what to do! (from the word appears in the flesh)

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I recently looked up both Trinity and Oneness on Google to learn about each a little. I started trinitarian without having consciously chosen; I was baptized and confirmed Lutheran. In reading my Google search returns, I read one individual's advice; it was that if one is not saved as a trinitarian, they are lost.

The question that came to me is: what is an unsaved person to do as they entertain accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior for the first time? Is how one views the Godhead important in being saved initially, presuming that corrections or adjustments can be made later on. One dilemma is that once saved, they may never wonder if they are thinking about the Godhead correctly. Somewhere along the way, one's understanding of the Godhead must finally matter though in my personal experience it doesn't seem to matter to to a huge majority of people.

At what point does it become important to have a correct understanding of the Godhead? Comments please.

It is always important to have a clear understanding of God yet one must also allow for growth and realization. The first time I saw my oldest son after his birth he looked at me and bawled his eyes out. He had no idea who I was and I frightened him [lol. Makes dad feel great: real important]. However we soon developed a close relationship that exists today. 1 John 2:12-14 may help you understand this. Little children are first born [forgiven for his name's sake] and they come to know the Father shortly afterward. How important was it for your children to know you?

My understanding of the trinity/oneness conflict is over water baptism and I think its a silly argument since both can be used. I must hold to the doctrine of the trinity because I literally saw Jesus seated at the Father's right hand. I would that everyone had shared this vision.