On the Trinity vs Oneness

[justlookinla]

I have no problem with this. The son was with the father. That's why I said this can only be understood in light of the trinity. I would like to know your interpretation of this. If the word was God, how is the word not God? That's a contradiction

Jesus God was with Father God, multiple Gods?

One of the men was pre-incarnate Christ because it says God appeared and we also know no one can see the Father.

Actually, per the scriptures I posted earlier, no man can see God. You're changing it to 'the Father'.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.​

Because the context of the verse is that it's God coming down

In Jesus Christ.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Hi,

If you guys actually figure this out somehow, it will be nice.

If Jesus , almost 2000 years ago, said something like no man has seen The Father, how is it that Abraham, Moses possibly, and Job saw God according to the Bible? Is God more than just The Father?

Then in John 6 I think, Jesus says that He can show The Father to anyone that He chooses to.

If God, were more like The Job, rather than a single person now, unlike before Jesus was Begotten and The Holy Spirit Sent, then Would Oneness in actions exist?

LOVE,

That's correct. God appeared before people many times in the OT. Even walked with Adam in the garden. Yet in the NT we learn no man can see or has seen God the father for he dwells in inapproachable light. So who were these men in the OT seeing? The logical answer is it was the pre-incarnate Christ. God the father is not the God of the OT like most people believe. The God of the OT is the entire God head. Father, son and Holy Spirit are all one God Jehovah.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Jesus God was with Father God, multiple Gods?

Nope, one God in three persons

Actually, per the scriptures I posted earlier, no man can see God. You're changing it to 'the Father'.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.​

Then I guess your in a conundrum.

(Gen. 17:1)--“Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless;"

If no man can see God, how did God appear to Abraham?

In Jesus Christ.

Correct. Jesus, who is the word of God in flesh. The word was God.

 

[katerinah1947]

That's correct. God appeared before people many times in the OT. Even walked with Adam in the garden. Yet in the NT we learn no man can see or has seen God the father for he dwells in inapproachable light. So who were these men in the OT seeing? The logical answer is it was the pre-incarnate Christ. God the father is not the God of the OT like most people believe. The God of the OT is the entire God head. Father, son and Holy Spirit are all one God Jehovah.

Hi,

Psalms 110, Jesus used. I think it twice. In one case it was with officials, I think. in the other case it was teaching the people, if I remember this correctly now.

The important part is Jesus saying That The Holy Spirit caused David to say, The Lord, said to my Lord, sit here at my right hand side, ......

The point to the people was The Lord there is God The Father, and my Lord is Jesus, it seems to me. However they are all God, also.

When I wanted to check that out, I used Psalms 2, and indeed it did seem to prove the point, that my Lord, is Jesus in Psalms 110, and The Lord is God The Father. Each of them are God it seems, along with The Holy Spirit Who Is also God.

God seems to be more of a function or a job rather than a personage, but it may be both. In fact it seems God is also a personage that each one of them shares, individually or together when they act as God.

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

When I think of God, I think of one entity in three persons, but three persons in which there is no distinguishing between them, but these three persons are not the same, they are three separate persons. It is that when the three of them are together, being God, I cannot separate any of them without using The Bible. I use Psalms 110.

There is joy. It can be seen and felt. It involves all of me, but only a portion of each of them, interfacing with......

When I think of Jesus, it is Jesus of the Cross, it is Jesus that I am sorrowful around and other times it is The sweet Jesus who can do things so nice, that a tear comes to my eye. He Jesus teaches me to love, by his loving me.

The voice of Jesus, is separate from God The Fathers voice, when The Father is acting in a person to person fashion. The Holy Spirit has a personal voice too, but that is the hardest one for me, as he normally is only working and using that work voice, which sounds like no one and no one else.

Each feels different. Spiritually The Holy Spirit feels exactly like The Zholy Spirit, and The Holy Spirit, that is unique and separate to God The Father, Feels Identical in all ways to The Holy Spirit that is The Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the same in all of them, and separately, so it is also that way with God The Father, in Himself, and in each of Them, as separate or in Gid The Father, they are identical.

LOVE,

 

[justlookinla]

Nope, one God in three persons

Somebody who was allegedly God was with somebody else who was allegedly God. There's an issue there with polytheism.

Then I guess your in a conundrum.

(Gen. 17:1)--“Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless;"

If no man can see God, how did God appear to Abraham?

No, I'm not in a conundrum at all and neither is scripture. Scripture plainly says that no man has seen God, period. One would need to interpret "râ'âh" to reconcile with scripture instead of man's doctrine.

Correct. Jesus, who is the word of God in flesh. The word was God.

Jesus God was with Father God?

 

[mickiio]

I always liked this analogy. Heavenly things are hard for human minds to grasp.

The Trinity is like an egg.

The Father is like the yoke. You cannot physically see Him. He is the core.

Jesus is like the shell. Came to the earth a man. Seen by all. Broken for us so we could have access to the Holy Spirit and Father.


The Holy Spirit is like the egg white. Unseen, but in everything.

The three together are an egg. The three in one God.

Isn't it amazing that most life starts with an egg?

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Somebody who was allegedly God was with somebody else who was allegedly God. There's an issue there with polytheism.



No, I'm not in a conundrum at all and neither is scripture. Scripture plainly says that no man has seen God, period. One would need to interpret "râ'âh" to reconcile with scripture instead of man's doctrine.



Jesus God was with Father God?

All you keep doing is saying my answers are wrong and come back with another derogatory question. Your not actually answering any of my question. One last time.God appeared many times to people in the OT.

1. If no man has seen nor can see God, how were people seeing God in the OT?

2. If the word is God and the word (who is God) became a man, how is that man not God? Why was he worshiped? Called God? Forgave sins?




Scripture reference:

(Exodus 24:9-11)--“Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”


(Num. 12:6-8)--“He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; with him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"


(Acts 7:2), "And he [Stephen] said, 'Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran . . . '"

 

[justlookinla]

All you keep doing is saying my answers are wrong and come back with another derogatory question. Your not actually answering any of my question. One last time.God appeared many times to people in the OT.

But I am answering your questions while pointing out the issues of a Trinitarian view.

1. If no man has seen nor can see God, how were people seeing God in the OT?

Scripture plainly says that no man has seen God. I've posted scripture which is very plain about this.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
​

You're not dealing with those scriptures.

2. If the word is God and the word (who is God) became a man, how is that man not God? Why was he worshiped?

He was never worshiped as God.

Called God?

He was never called God. (Que Thomas verse)

Forgave sins?

He was given that authority by His God and Father. Incidentally, His God and Father was the same as Mary's God and Father.

 

[dms1972]

Hi,

Salvation to me, is being alive after an earthly death, like those who alive at the time of Noah that Jesus went down to see, but being with God in some fashion rather than separate from Him.

Life and death, Biblically, have this definition some of the time. Other times, life and death are only an earthly life and death.

The work, Biblically, is in seeing which is which when you can.

Hi there thanks for your comment. Because I had these theological difficulties young, and mistakenly thought I had to get into theology to understand the Bible, I became a bit disparaging of theology for a while, and sometimes I still feel that way about some of it. So first of all I am not saying theology is a waste of time, however some of it is in my experience, but certainly not all of it.

I think people may not understand the Trinity very well and some may yet be christians, in fact I am pretty sure of it.


I think salvation or how to save us is something Jesus understands - thankfully! That's becoming more and more the point I return to if looking for a definition of anything in theology. How the benefits of his salvation that flow from His death and resurrection are realised in my life is something I can know by faith - but it differs from person to person in terms of what one is saved from in this earthly life. Some things I know from the Bible and theology that salvation doesn't mean, it doesn't mean to be saved from bodily life into some intellectual existence. Though Paul says he keeps his body under, he doesn't view matter as evil as in gnosticism, and Jesus "did not despise the virgin's womb"



https://www.ccel.org/creeds/heidelberg-cat.html

Jesus the Son is the Way to the Father. God the Father is Jesus' father first of all and ours by adoption. Jesus therefore is the True Son, and also believers related to him as elder brother. Christians are tekna, children of God. God is Creator and sustainer of all in a general sense, but because all have sinned and gone astray, repentant faith in Jesus is how we return to God.

This is one of my favorite carols (yes its old fashioned, been sung thousands of times etc.) and still great.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

But I am answering your questions while pointing out the issues of a Trinitarian view.

Your just doing that to dodge the question. You can't answer a question with a question.

Scripture plainly says that no man has seen God. I've posted scripture which is very plain about this.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
​

You're not dealing with those scriptures.

I was the first one to post these scriptures. I have no problem with them because they can only be understood in light of the trinity.
Your the one who is in a delema with these verses. My answer is simple. If no man has seen or can see God yet men in the OT did see God then the only logical interpretation is that these verses are speaking of God the father. Without that view it's a contradiction. I'll ask again but you will just dodge it " if no man can see or has seen God, how did people see God in the OT?"

He was never worshiped as God.

The Old Testament taught against worshiping anyone other than God. If Jesus accepted worship of Himself, this would mean He believed He was divine. And if he didn't think he was divine he would have forbidden it like the angel in (Rev 22:8-9) "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with you and your brothers … worship God."

(Matt 14:33) "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

(John 9:38) " He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

(Matt 28:17) "And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted."

He was never called God. (Que Thomas verse)

(que the Thomas verse)? Whats that matter? He called Jesus flat out "my Lord and my God". You can get an exacto-knife and cut that verse out of your bible if you want.

He was given that authority by His God and Father. Incidentally, His God and Father was the same as Mary's God and Father.

Do you know why Jesus served and worshiped God the Father? Because in order to save us from our sins he had to be a man under the law and part of that law was to serve and worship God. If as a man, Jesus didn't do that he would not have kept the law.

 

[justlookinla]

Your just doing that to dodge the question.

Not at all. This is called discussion.

I was the first one to post these scriptures. I have no problem with them because they can only be understood in light of the trinity.
Your the one who is in a delema with these verses. My answer is simple. If no man has seen or can see God yet men in the OT did see God then the only logical interpretation is that these verses are speaking of God the father. Without that view it's a contradiction. I'll ask again but you will just dodge it " if no man can see or has seen God, how did people see God in the OT?"

You're distinguishing between God the Father and the (unscriptural) God the Son. Are you saying that God the Son was visible while God the Father was unseen, yet they're the same God? In other words, they saw God but they didn't really see God?

My view is that the God of the OT, which is the same God of the NT, was revealed through an intermediary. Just like in the NT.

The Old Testament taught against worshiping anyone other than God.

Right....as God.

If Jesus accepted worship of Himself, this would mean He believed He was divine. Did Jesus receive worship from others? And if he didn't think he was divine he would have forbidden it like the angel in (Rev 22:8-9) "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with you and your brothers … worship God.

(Matt 14:33) "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

(John 9:38) "3He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

(Matt 28:17) "17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted."

Nothing there about Jesus being worshiped as the one true God.

(que the Thomas verse)? What that that matter? He called Jesus flat out "my Lord and my God". You can get an exacto-knife and cut that verse out of your bible if you want.

Don't need to cut it out. We are 'theos'.....'theos' doesn't always refer to the one true God.

When Thomas exclaimed "my Lord and my God", who do you think he was referring to, God the Father or the (unscriptural) God the Son?

Do you know why Jesus served and worshiped God the Father?

Yes, because God the Father was His God and Father. (As well as Mary's)

Because in order to save us from our sins he had to be a man under the law and part of that law was to serve and worship God. If as a man, Jesus didn't do that he would not have kept the law.

He was the Lamb of God and the great perfect high priest.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Not at all. This is called discussion.

First of all, thank you for answering my questions. I appreciate that. Now it's a discussion.[emoji106]

You're distinguishing between God the Father and the (unscriptural) God the Son. Are you saying that God the Son was visible while God the Father was unseen, yet they're the same God? In other words, they saw God but they didn't really see God?

I'm saying the verses that say no man has seen God, imply God the father. Obviously they saw God because the OT says so.

My view is that the God of the OT, which is the same God of the NT, was revealed through an intermediary. Just like in the NT.

Intermediary? (Gen 32:20) "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved"

Face to face is intermediary?

Nothing there about Jesus being worshiped as the one true God.

Ugh, I mean this in the nicest way possible but, do you think about what your writing before you write it?

dont need to cut it out. We are 'theos'.....'theos' doesn't always refer to the one true God.

He said "my God"

When Thomas exclaimed "my Lord and my God", who do you think he was referring to, God the Father or the (unscriptural) God the Son?

He called Jesus "my God"

He was the Lamb of God and the great perfect high priest.

I agree

 

[justlookinla]

First of all, thank you for answering my questions. I appreciate that. Now it's a discussion.[emoji106]

Great!

I'm saying the verses that say no man has seen God, imply God the father. Obviously they saw God because the OT says so.

Doesn't matter which it is, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, no man has seen God.

Intermediary? (Gen 32:20) "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved"

Face to face is intermediary?

Intermediary, advocate, express image.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
​

Ugh, I mean this in the nicest way possible but, do you think about what your writing before you write it?

Sometimes.

He said "my God"

When speaking of His, and Mary's, God and Father?

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
​

He called Jesus "my God"

Jesus said we were 'theos' also.

I agree

I guess that's progress.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Doesn't matter which it is, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, no man has seen God.

Ok, so you just don't take that verse's literally? Where it says " I have seen God face to face". Or where Adam walked 'with God' in the garden. Your saying that wasn't really God but just his representative. Correct?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Not sure where your going with these.

When speaking of His, and Mary's, God and Father?

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I have no problem here. We know that the Son is equal with the Father. Again the reason Jesus served and worshiped the Father was because he was a man under the law and he had to fulfill the law perfectly. The law requires that you love God with all your heart and worship him. If Jesus didn't worship God he would not have fulfilled the law.

Jesus said we were 'theos' also.

that's not the point he was making. Do you know the context of that verse?

The two contexts where the word 'god' is used is very different, however let's just assume that we could call ourselves 'gods' why can’t we call satan 'god'? (2 Cor 4:4). That is also stated in the Bible and the scripture cannot be broken. We can also call pagan deities as gods as they are also mentioned as gods in the Bible and again scriptures cannot be broken. The difference is the context. John was proclaiming "Jesus you are my God!". As in the true God, the creator of heaven and earth.

 

[justlookinla]

Ok, so you just don't take that verse's literally? Where it says " I have seen God face to face". Or where Adam walked 'with God' in the garden. Your saying that wasn't really God but just his representative. Correct?

Right.

And you're saying it was the Father part of God which wasn't seen, right? The Son part of God was seen?

Not sure where your going with these.

A few verses showing God's representative, express image.

I have no problem here. We know that the Son is equal with the Father. Again the reason Jesus served and worshiped the Father was because he was a man under the law and he had to fulfill the law perfectly. The law requires that you love God with all your heart and worship him. If Jesus didn't worship God he would not have fulfilled the law.

Jesus was a man when He ascended to His, and Mary's God and His, and Mary's Father?

that's not the point he was making. Do you know the context of that verse?

The two contexts where the word 'god' is used is very different, however let's just assume that we could call ourselves 'gods' why can’t we call satan 'god'? (2 Cor 4:4).

Actually, he is called God....

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

​

That is also stated in the Bible and the scripture cannot be broken. We can also call pagan deities as gods as they are also mentioned as gods in the Bible and again scriptures cannot be broken. The difference is the context. John was proclaiming "Jesus you are my God!". As in the true God, the creator of heaven and earth.

'Theos' has several meanings, not all of them meaning the one supreme God, i.e., God the Father from whom Jesus proceeded.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Right.

And you're saying it was the Father part of God which wasn't seen, right? The Son part of God was seen?

Yes

Jesus was a man when He ascended to His, and Mary's God and His, and Mary's Father?

yes and he will always be a men

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

​

'Theos' has several meanings, not all of them meaning the one supreme God, i.e., God the Father from whom Jesus proceeded.

that's the point I'm trying to make. A word means what a word means in context. Like the word 'green' it can mean (your not feeling well, money, a color) you determine what is meant when the word is used by its context. John was saying to Jesus "you are my God".


Just out of curiosity have you ever studied the 'hypostatic Union'
Or communicatio idiomatum? I'll post a link, even if you don't believe it it's still something good to know if your in the mood for learning.

https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

*** also on a side note I find it interesting that when you look at the two verses the translation has God and god. I mention this because it shows my point about it being implied.

(2 Cor 4:4) "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

(John 20:28) "my Lord and my God"

It's also that way in every single translation http://biblehub.com/john/20-28.htm

http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/4-4.htm

 

[justlookinla]

Yes

That's basic polytheism. One God, the Father, invisible, one God, Jesus, visible.

yes and he will always be a men

I thought you said He was always God?

that's the point I'm trying to make. A word means what a word means in context. Like the word 'green' it can mean (your not feeling well, money, a color) you determine what is meant when the word is used by its context. John was saying to Jesus "you are my God".

As I pointed out, 'theos' can men more than just a reference to the one God.

Just out of curiosity have you ever studied the 'hypostatic Union'
Or communicatio idiomatum? I'll post a link, even if you don't believe it it's still something good to know if your in the mood for learning.

https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

Yes, I've studied that.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

That's basic polytheism. One God, the Father, invisible, one God, Jesus, visible.



I thought you said He was always God?



As I pointed out, 'theos' can men more than just a reference to the one God.



Yes, I've studied that.

Hold on I'm still editing my last post lol

 

[justlookinla]

Hold on I'm still editing my last post lol

Oh..ok...sorry.