On the importance of citing sources

prodromos

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There is an Eastern Orthodox forum which may be more suitable if you're looking for those just those who agree with you instead of having a reasonable debate.
Ironically, the Eastern Orthodox community forum is the only one which has an area where people who are not Eastern Orthodox can challenge and argue against our beliefs. You just scored a couple of own goals :oldthumbsup:
 
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pescador

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Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Does this text really mean one should not have any pictures of their families?

Deuteronomy 12:3
And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

Or does this verse give us a better picture of not worshiping any pagan idols?

To my knowledge no Historical Christian Church worships nor has no pagan idols.

Why do you conflate a commandment describing the Hebrews' behavior -- a single verse -- from Exodus and another single verse from Deuteronomy describing how the Hebrews should treat pagan objects? And then interpret both with a meaningless example from modern times and a non-sequitor about worshiping pagan idols? You're not making any sense.

You also omitted Paul's New Testament writing in Romans 1:22-23, "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles", which is more relevant.

There is nothing wrong with having family pictures; there is a lot wrong with filling churches with "graven images" of "saints" -- all Christians are saints -- and praying to them as intermediaries between you and God.
 
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The Liturgist

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Ironically, the Eastern Orthodox community forum is the only one which has an area where people who are not Eastern Orthodox can challenge and argue against our beliefs. You just scored a couple of own goals :oldthumbsup:

Today being Orthodox Pascha, I just want to say to you, @GreekOrthodox and my other Eastern and Oriental Orthodox friends, Christos Anesti!
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Why do you conflate a commandment describing the Hebrews' behavior -- a single verse -- from Exodus and another single verse from Deuteronomy describing how the Hebrews should treat pagan objects? And then interpret both with a meaningless example from modern times and a non-sequitor about worshiping pagan idols? You're not making any sense.

You also omitted Paul's New Testament writing in Romans 1:22-23, "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles", which is more relevant.

There is nothing wrong with having family pictures; there is a lot wrong with filling churches with "graven images" of "saints" -- all Christians are saints -- and praying to them as intermediaries between you and God.

Bottom line the texts I quoted was written for Israel, not for gentiles.

Your interpretation of Romans 1 is funny because it does not say Catholics are the people being condemned.

18 God shows his anger from heaven against all the evil and wrong things that people do. Their evil lives hide the truth they have. 19 This makes God angry because they have been shown what he is like. Yes, God has made it clear to them.

20 There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do.

21 People knew God, but they did not honor him as God, and they did not thank him. Their ideas were all useless. There was not one good thought left in their foolish minds. 22 They said they were wise, but they became fools. 23 Instead of honoring the divine greatness of God, who lives forever, they traded it for the worship of idols—things made to look like humans, who get sick and die, or like birds, animals, and snakes.

24 People wanted only to do evil. So God left them and let them go their sinful way. And so they became completely immoral and used their bodies in shameful ways with each other. 25 They traded the truth of God for a lie. They bowed down and worshiped the things God made instead of worshiping the God who made those things. He is the one who should be praised forever. Amen.

26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.

28 People did not think it was important to have a true knowledge of God. So God left them and allowed them to have their own worthless thinking. And so they do what they should not do. 29 They are filled with every kind of sin, evil, greed, and hatred. They are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, lying, and thinking the worst things about each other. They gossip 30 and say evil things about each other. They hate God. They are rude, proud, and brag about themselves. They invent ways of doing evil. They don’t obey their parents, 31 they are foolish, they don’t keep their promises, and they show no kindness or mercy to others. 32 They know God’s law says that anyone who lives like that should die. But they not only continue to do these things themselves, but they also encourage others who do them.

"
Ver. 21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God.

This is the one greatest charge; and the second after it is their also worshipping idols, as Jeremy too in accusing them said, This people has committed two evils: they have forsaken me the fountain of living water, and have dug for themselves broken cisterns. Jeremiah 2:13 And then as a sign of their having known God, and not used their knowledge upon a fit object, he adduces this very thing, that they knew gods. Wherefore he adds, because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God. And he names the cause through which they fell into such senselessness. What then is it? They trusted everything to their reasonings. Still he does not word it so, but in a much sharper language, but became vain in their reasonings, and their foolish heart was darkened. For as in a night without a moon, if any one attempt to go by a strange road, or to sail over a strange sea, so far will he be from soon reaching his destination, that he will speedily be lost. Thus they, attempting to go the way leading to Heaven, and having destroyed the light from their own selves, and, in lieu of it, trusted themselves to the darkness of their own reasoning, and seeking in bodies for Him who is incorporeal, and in shapes for Him who has no shape, underwent a most rueful shipwreck. But beside what has been said, he names also another cause of their error, when he says,"
CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 3 on Romans (Chrysostom)

"
4. In what then were they unlike the others? Why were they blamed? Why rightly accused? Hear the words of the Apostle which I had begun to quote; The wrath of God, says he, is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness (even of those, namely, who had not received the law); against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. What truth? Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them. By whose manifestation of it? For God has manifested it to them. How? For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His Eternal Power and Godhead. Why did He manifest it? That they might be without excuse. Wherein then are they to be blamed? Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God.

5. What mean these words, Glorified Him not as God? They did not give Him thanks. Is this then to glorify God; to give God thanks? Yes, verily. For what can be worse, if having been created after the image of God, and having come to know God, you shall not be thankful to Him? This surely, this is to glorify God, to give God thanks. The faithful know where and when it is said, Let us give thanks unto our Lord God. But who gives thanks to God, save he who lifts up his heart unto the Lord? Therefore are they blameable and without excuse, Because when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, nor gave Him thanks. But — what? But they became vain in their imaginations. Whence did they become vain, but because they were proud? Thus smoke vanishes away by rising up aloft, and a flame burns the more brightly and strongly in proportion as it is kept low; They became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. So smoke, though it rise higher than the flame, is dark.

6. Finally, mark what follows, and see the point on which the whole matter depends. For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. For arrogating to themselves what God had given, God took away what He had given. Therefore from the proud He hid Himself, who conveyed the knowledge of Himself only to those who through the creature sought diligently after the Creator. Well then did our Lord say, You have hid these things from the wise and prudent; whether from those who in their manifold disputations, and most busy search, have reached to the full investigation of the creature, but knew nothing of the Creator, or from them who when they knew God, glorified Him not as God, nor gave Him thanks, and who could not see perfectly or healthfully because they were proud. Therefore You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. What babes? To the lowly. Say on whom does My Spirit rest? Upon him that is lowly and quiet, and who trembles at My words. At these words Peter trembled; Plato trembled not. Let the fisherman hold fast what that most famous philosopher has lost. You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. You have hid them from the proud, and revealed them to the humble. What things are these? For when He said this, He did not intend the heaven and earth, or point them out as it were with His hand as He spoke. For these who does not see? The good see them, the bad see them; for He makes His sun to rise on the evil and the good. What then are these things? All things are delivered unto Me of My Father."
CHURCH FATHERS: Sermon 18 on the New Testament (Augustine)

 
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Daniel Marsh

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"
Chapter 19 [XII]— The Knowledge of God Through the Creation
And then the apostle very properly turns from this point to describe with detestation those men who, light-minded and puffed up by the sin which I have mentioned in the preceding chapter, have been carried away of their own conceit, as it were, through empty space where they could find no resting-place, only to fall shattered to pieces against the vain figments of their idols, as against stones. For, after he had commended the piety of that faith, whereby, being justified, we must needs be pleasing to God, he proceeds to call our attention to what we ought to abominate as the opposite. For the wrath of God, says he, is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold down the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them: for God has showed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him are clearly seen from the creation of the world, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and divinity; so that they are without excuse: because, knowing God, they yet glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools; and they changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and to four footed beasts, and to creeping things. Romans 1:18-23 Observe, he does not say that they were ignorant of the truth, but that they held down the truth in unrighteousness. For it occurred to him, that he would inquire whence the knowledge of the truth could be obtained by those to whom God had not given the law; and he was not silent on the source whence they could have obtained it: for he declares that it was through the visible works of creation that they arrived at the knowledge of the invisible attributes of the Creator. And, in very deed, as they continued to possess great faculties for searching, so they were able to find. Wherein then lay their impiety? Because when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, nor gave Him thanks, but became vain in their imaginations. Vanity is a disease especially of those who mislead themselves, and think themselves to be something, when they are nothing. Galatians 6:3 Such men, indeed, darken themselves in that swelling pride, the foot of which the holy singer prays that it may not come against him, after saying, In Your light shall we see light; from which very light of unchanging truth they turn aside, and their foolish heart is darkened. Romans 1:21 For theirs was not a wise heart, even though they knew God; but it was foolish rather, because they did not glorify Him as God, or give Him thanks; for He said to man, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom. Job 28:28 So by this conduct, while professing themselves to be wise (which can only be understood to mean that they attributed this to themselves), they became fools. Romans 1:22

Chapter 20.— The Law Without Grace

...

Now just as those who come to know the Creator through the creature received no benefit towards salvation, from their knowledge — because though they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, nor gave Him thanks, although professing themselves to be wise; Romans 1:21 — so also they who know from the law how man ought to live, are not made righteous by their knowledge, because, going about to establish their own righteousness, they have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:3

Chapter 21 [XIII.]— The Law of Works and the Law of Faith

"
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Spirit and the Letter (St. Augustine)
 
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