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On the importance of citing sources

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by The Liturgist, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I happen to be Charismatic, but I believe in using my brain. The problem with the pentecostal charismatic labels is that there are many winds of doctrine floating around under those labels.

    Please, name the top ten Charismatic Pentecostal Systematic Theology Books.
     
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  2. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    What would you say is the top ten principles for self moderating yourself?

    Thanks,
    Daniel
     
  3. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Hi Chilehed, Catholic Apologetists rightfully, point out that everyone who claims to have the Holy Spirit giving them an interpretation often contradicts others who also claims that the Holy Spirit is giving them the correct interpretation of a text. And, then asks the good question, who or what is the tie breaker?
     
  4. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 20:4
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

    Does this text really mean one should not have any pictures of their families?

    Deuteronomy 12:3
    And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.

    Or does this verse give us a better picture of not worshiping any pagan idols?

    To my knowledge no Historical Christian Church worships nor has no pagan idols.
     
  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    denomination specific area would be the area for a reasonable place for that.
     
  6. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    In my experience, both concerns have some validity. People do jump into congregational forums just to tell that group how wrong they are about xyz. On the other hand, a long pattern of that has made genuine fellowship difficult in some of those forums, because the members have become quite hostile to "outsiders" even when they're not seeking to undermine their teachings/practices.
     
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  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    read to here
     
  8. Taodeching

    Taodeching Well-Known Member

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    See many are not like that, not being a Bible alone type I want to know the thought process of the person. I am not want people to be a PhD in theology just put down thier thoughts to the best of their ability.

    You did a great job here and there are many times things said go over my head here. I type slow to I bet many do also. You posted an explanation to me and I appreciate that, I don't think it is asking to much to jot down a thought or two.

    Thank you for your explanation and God Bless!
     
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  9. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Well-Known Member

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    I would have no idea which are considered the top 10 Charismatic Pentecostal Systematic theology books. I don't live by systematic theology but by the word of God, which I read. I cannot say that I have read these others you do not name.

    I do not consider myself charismatic, but pentecostal and I do not tend to follow the charismatic theology, which I find appalling.

    I grew up in Southern Rhodesia in the Assembly of God congregation under Jim Mullen and his brother and influenced by Willie Burton of the Congo Mission.

    My father had the greatest influence on my life and taught me to understand the word through the principles of the doctrine of Jesus Christ as listed in Hebrews 6 and, to me, is the greatest study of Pentecostal systematic theology. In the church they taught Christ through the typology of the temple and sacrifices, clearly showing that these things were a shadow of he who was to come. My parents, who were saved in the Assembly of God before I was born, testify to this.

    In all things we were pointed, not to the writings of men, but to the Bible: the word of God; it being paramount to every understanding.

    Southern Africa had the longest standing revival in history [other than, perhaps, the church of the Book of Acts] it being in full swing when I was born and carrying on until around my 13th year, and I bear witness to this.

    Our historical influence came from the Welsh revival; the Elim Mission of Great Britain, and the missionaries of the Congo Mission.

    I am not influenced by the Charismatic Renewal.

    I, too, like to use my mind, but I make it subject to Christ and the word of God.
     
  10. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    1- I realize that many people do not have a theological background, so I keep my posts short for the most part and only deal with one piece at a time in a fairly simplified manner.

    2- I'll wait for some time before posting on an issue that I've gotten heated about.

    3- In some instances, I've stated my position and I'm not trying to convince anyone that I am right.

    4- If I realize that the person is not really reading my posts but simply wants to prove themselves right, I'll drop out of the thread.

    5- When I do post, part of my thought process is that I am trying to educate a general audience about a particular issue. I realize that many people have never set foot inside an Orthodox church especially since I give church tours. So I try to explain things in a way that non-theologically minded people would understand.

    Maybe not a top ten but a top five :)
     
  11. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    You proved my entire point about people jumping in randomly. This is the GT section and the discussion is about quoting sources. I was answering Maria's concern about posting about factions within CF and I was simply using icons as an example. I'm trying to answer one person's question and you've jumped in and criticized the use of graven images. This discussion has nothing to do with graven images.
     
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  12. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Well, we can only do our best. I think what @Athanasius377 was referring to were certain sources, books and commentators well known for being dubious and controversial.
     
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  13. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    The Bible and early church was not in a vacuum. So, reading Early Church Fathers, Secular Authors of those time periods, study of other tools like archaeology is used.
     
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  14. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    It is nice to hear that your glasses are from Alfred Edersheim:

    History of the Jewish Nation after the Destruction of Jerusalem by Titus (Edinburgh, 1856)
    The Golden Diary of Heart-Converse with Jesus in the Psalms (1874)
    The Temple and Its Ministry and Services at the Time of Jesus Christ (London, 1874)
    Bible History (7 vols., 1876–87)
    The World Before the Flood and the History of the Patriarchs (1875)
    Sketches of Jewish Social Life in the Days of Christ (1876)
    The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah (2 vols.,1883; condensation in one volume, 1890)
    Prophecy and History in Relation to the Messiah (Warburton Lectures for 1880-1884, 1885)
    Tohu va Bohu, "Without form and Void." A Collection of fragmentary Thoughts and Criticisms. Ed. with a Memoir, by Ella Edersheim (1890)
    Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim (London, 1898)
    Alfred Edersheim - Wikipedia

    The connection of Edersheim's books to your church teaching background was

    "W.F.P. Burton (1886-1971) was born and raised in England. From a child he heard the wonderful truth of the Gospel. His parents dedicated him to God’s work in Africa even before he was born. As a boy his one desire was to be a missionary. In 1905 he came under deep conviction of sin at an R.A. Torrey Evangelistic campaign in London. A few days later he experienced salvation. At once he contacted various African mission societies but there would be a delay of eight years before he was able to step out and pursue this calling. In those intervening years he was on hand for his aging parents while working for an Engineering firm. During this vital period he grew in the study of the Word of God, in prayer and in winning souls to Christ. He also established the habit of rising early and of spending at least two hours in Bible study each morning.

    All his friends had received the Baptism in the Holy Ghost and were speaking in tongues but to his great disappointment he had prayed, believed and claimed but still had not received. During a meeting at the Preston Pentecostal Convention in 1910 he felt a deep sense of his own utter vileness before God, but then he looked to the utter worthiness of Christ's sacrifice at Calvary. A new deep revelation of the Blood of Jesus broke upon him in these meetings. The Spirit was poured out upon him and he began to praise God in a new tongue that he had never learnt. In confirming his missionary call, God answered prayer by miraculously giving him a third set of teeth which was recorded in scientific magazines.

    Finally in 1914 he arrived in South Africa where he laboured for one year. He then travelled north with his good friend Jimmy Salter to the Congo. These early days were marked by fighting sickness (malaria), encountering cannibal tribesmen, learning the language and making the first maps of the country. Their first convert was a young boy called Nyuki. For a radius of 40 miles around them a quarter of a million souls awaited the Gospel. A new church was planted and evangelism commenced. In 1920 160 of their converts experienced an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Again in the 1930 the Lord sent an outpouring of the Spirit amongst them and worked mighty miracles. Over these years their were many very real times of terrible discouragement but by faith he persevered. In 1960 when Willie left Congo there were 75 missionaries, 14 mission stations, over 1000 assemblies and 43,000 Believers. He spent his last days living out of a suit case, travelling and preaching and died a very happy man.

    Taken and condensed from Pentecostal Pioneers Remembered by Keith Malcomson" Willie Burton: Man of Faith

    Burton sounds like a good guy to look up in heaven. I am curious what years were the revivals you refer to?
     
  15. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    The Assembly of God in the USA at least is well known in many of their churches, not all, is well known for the various winds of doctrine.... An AOG here in Michigan recently had doctrines of the Christadelphians taught in their bible studies.
     
  16. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Thank You, I printed them and posted them on the side of my computer.

    I do love it when someone tries to pigeon hole me. I must admit there is a temptation to play devils advocate.
     
  17. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    good discussion to those who are on topic
     
  18. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Well-Known Member

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    I would have to read Edersheim to know what you're talking about, but you suggest that was the basis of Willie Burton's faith.

    My mum and dad speak highly of brother Burton who moved among the churches in Southern Rhodesia in the early days of their salvation. I was only a small child and do not remember him. I have studied some of his teachings that he gave them, they are written in his own handwriting, I suppose I should try to get a hold of them for their historical value, just never thought about it.

    I am uncertain if I could put dates on the Southern African revival since it was only in my later years when reading about revivals that I realised I was born in such an experience.

    My dad suggests that the revivals began in the days of John G Lake and the Apostolic Faith Mission and flowed on to the Assembly of God on a prophetic word at an AFM where it was said God was giving the mantle to another.

    My father ministered in the power of the Spirit during this time planting churches in Southern Rhodesia and pastoring churches both in South Africa and Rhodesia. The first of these was a mixed race church in a suburb in Umtali on the eastern border of what now is Zimbabwe.

    I know that we were in revival because the Lord added to the Church daily and the number multiplied greatly.

    From Gwelo my dad outreached to QueQue, planting a church there under the ministry of Abe Robertson who also planted a church in nearby Redcliffe, a mining village. There were converts there.

    While in Gwelo young converts came from afar and, being taught the word more fully by my dad, went out planting churches. One couple started a cafe church in South Africa.

    At this time a man visited our church from Sinoia, was gloriously saved and he and his family were all baptised. My dad approached the chairman of the Assembly of God to send someone there as it was too far for him to travel. A church was planted as a result. I was born in Umtali where he planted his first church and I was 10 at this time and we lived there till the end of my 12th year.

    Following this dad was sent to Hatfield, a suburb in the south part of Salisbury [now Harare] for there were converts there and a church was soon planted by the Holy Spirit; the congregation purchasing its own place of worship. We were there only a year when the church sent us back to Umtali where I continued to observe God move in miraculous ways, whole families coming to faith in Jesus Christ.

    My dad was tireless; holding meetings at farm homes in the middle of a civil war and outreaching to surrounding towns and villages. I remember travelling to Rusape and Chipinga, the latter congregation experiencing a wonderful outpouring of the Holy Spirit in about 1982 or 3 under the ministry of a man I only remember affectionately as "The Red Rev."

    It was in 1983 that I first realised that we had been experiencing revival all those years after Paddy McGowan visited Basingstoke in England for, apparently, there was considered to be a revival there among the house churches and he wanted to learn of them.

    However, when he arrived he shared an experience of our congregation where a family of 6 came to the front to accept Jesus while we were worshipping before the message was preached, they exclaimed, "Why have you come to us?".

    It is hard for me to say when the decline came but I saw the roots of it when teaching that came from America rebelled against the Holy Spirit for it taught licentiousness and worldliness to the children of those who had been birthed by the Holy Ghost. I saw much of this come with the Charismatic movement desiring to hold on to the traditions of men and the prosperity gospel that taught the unwary to covet this world's goods.

    My wife and I left Zimbabwe in 1984 by which time I considered the revival to be over as doctrines of the traditions of men and worldliness flowed freely through the church.

    One such was a man going about encouraging the saints of God into sexual perversions saying, "Unto the pure all things are pure."

    The centerpiece of this man's preaching was to take two clean handkerchiefs out of each side pocket of his suit and wave them before the congregation, calling out, "What am I holding?"

    "two clean handkerchiefs," they called in response.

    He would rub them together and then display them again, saying, "See? They are still clean. If you are both clean neither can make the other dirty."

    I was shocked when leading ministers of the Bible College I attended, leading ministers of the movement I adhered to and leading ministers in the Charismatic Movement said that he was being used of God to call many to Christ.

    Although, at that time, I did not know of the prophecy spoken at the Apostolic Faith Mission conference so many years before, I heard the Lord say to me, "I am removing the mantle and will give it to another."

    The ones I believed he sent me to proved unworthy and I do not know if any other received it.

    That is all I can tell you, although others have researched what I say about the Southern African revival and have conceded that it is true. Jim and Fred Mullin, along with brother Potgieter and Nicholas Bengu are now recorded in history.

    That is my witness of the revival.

    If all this comes from looking through the glasses of Alfred Edersheim as you suggest, perhaps we need to look through them again. However I do not believe it was the work of a man but of God.
     
  19. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I posted a brief bio of Taken and condensed from Pentecostal Pioneers Remembered by Keith Malcomson" Willie Burton: Man of Faith

    Torrey was the connecting factor for Edersheim. Also, your descriptions of what you learned about the Temple is identical to Edersheim's works. Even Pastors stand on the shoulders of giants in Theology. No problem with that.
     
  20. Llewelyn Stevenson

    Llewelyn Stevenson Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for that information. I have heard my dad mention Torrey, though he did not recall Edershiem when I asked him.

    My mum tells me he read mostly Gordon Lindsay in his early days in Christ, though that is not the connection to the AOG. She went to Bible Study and he studied at home "and formed his own opinion" [her words]. He went to the evangelistic outreach. We were 5 young boys at the time and someone had to stay home so they shared meetings.

    I do want to read Edershiem but I swapped computers and lost your post. Now I can find it.
     
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