On the importance of citing sources

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,112
5,678
49
The Wild West
✟471,688.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
That's a very loose application of the text quoted, and its out of context so it is rather inexact.

I read the side column of your introduction of yourself.

1. United States tells me something about your application of the Scriptures.

2. Christian suggests to me that you are rather self-opinionated and don't want to be held responsible to any denominational theological thought, or that you're concealing it for advantage.

When reading what you say I tend to take note of these things.

For instance you noted what I explained about myself and my pentecostal upbringing and immediately struck out with an anti-pentecostal stance in quoting something you believe opposes the experience.

Duly noted.

In my case I had no choice but to select “Christian” as my faith group because I am a Congregationalist in the high church tradition of the King’s Weigh House, that renounces the United Church of Christ, the United Reformed Church, and various other liberal uniting churches that have swallowed up most of the Congregationalist denominations in the Anglophone world.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,112
5,678
49
The Wild West
✟471,688.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,112
5,678
49
The Wild West
✟471,688.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
This was a topic that was very important to me years ago. At that time I was spending a lot of time on a "Postmodern Christian" message board, "theooze.com" that went belly up around 2012. But it was an interesting place that was only slightly moderated most of the time. It more or less was almost a kind of Wild West place like Tombstone, a virtual anarchy until somebody really went overboard where a moderator had to delete threads, ban somebody etc. But until then, the law was nowhere in sight.


What I liked about that place was the kind of interactions, discussions and debates you could have. Because they could often be much more interesting that what takes place in what I call the "Christian Ghetto", where all the different groups stay in their little neighborhoods and only talk about various minutia of what canon law etc. applies to whatever situation.


Instead of that there was a lot of "Think Different" kinds of discussions, where lots of people were rethinking or advocating for some kind of position that was much different than what they were raised in. You had some nonsacramental protestants becoming interested in more traditional Christianity and asking questions. But you often had the opposite of that, where others were questioning the need for "Institutional Christianity" and doing things like making threads promoting the Christian Anarchy movement, and lots of people were into things like "House Churches".


Anyway while on the Board I had it in for this one radical author named Frank Viola whose first big hit book was "Pagan Christian" because not only did I disagree with the book (That tries to make the case that the basic liturgical Christian format comes from Paganism) but the author two or three times would come by to promote his next venture and I would do my best to denounce him because he really seemed like a false teacher. Basically he was making his living selling materials to people who want to do "House Churches" especially Charismatics and Anabaptist types, and he seemed to be doing his best to basically proselytize people away from their local body to instead staying home and having their friends over doing a home church worship/ prayer / Bible study meeting using his materials and being part of his home church network.
https://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Church-Practices/dp/1414364555


Oh and I forgot the most important part as far as the OP goes. This guy was a naked Plagiarist. I once was very active studying the "Church Growth" movement when I was looking to a be a Protestant pastor. As a seminary student, but also a former student of the Social Sciences I was very interested in ways to engineer church functions to be seeker friendly, and other kinds of group dynamics that let a small group actually grow into a church. (Their are lots of Social Psychology things that come into play that small church plants have to overcome). Anyway I was very up on books written to help churches have "cell groups" and I owned many of them, and intended to use some of them. But when I read the guys materials I could tell he was directly stealing the various formats, exercises etc. that came from these books! Which would have been fine if he had at least cited them, but he didn't he just advocated doing the various exercises and wrote it in a way where the reader would probably assume he invented it!


Anyway this one time I really confronted him on the plagarism. On top of that he posted a thread on something like a new book on a "Emergent Biblical Church structure". He had a few followers that were interested in this new book he was researching and were looking for some preview type hints. But the guy was evasive, I could just tell that he absolutely knew nothing on the topic (He was just biding his time to hopefully steal from some other Protestant author). So I answered the topic questions from the poster from what I knew Eastern Orthodox theology had the answers and gave them and in detail especially on topics like paradosis / Apostolic tradition but also pointed out that this was the very antithesis refutation to his position on many assumptions (but it answered all the questions of the poster extremely well)!

But I found out like a year and a half later, after I lost track of him and started thinking about him again and googled him, and I found he basically plagiarized me this time! Well technically it was me, summarizing all the Eastern Orthodox theology I digested from reading books by Conciliar press and hearing various Eastern Orthodox church services homilies! And the same sort of thing happened, he got praised by people who assumed that he made all that stuff up on his own. So I was temporarily chagrined. A few years back, I have seen him come out with a "Recommended Reading" list a few years back, and was happy to see him recommend maybe a dozen Eastern Orthodox books on that list so I guess I sort of won in the long run... He is both citing sources, but his teaching has become a bit more moderated as well even though he is still making money from his old books like "Pagan Christianity" that the iconoclasts still buy.

That now-defunct board sounds like it would have been a lot of fun, but I myself am too old for such quarrels, so I for one am glad we have the strong moderation that we do here on CF.com. Otherwise I would just get myself too worked up! I’ve tried other forums on the Net and they all seem to either be undermoderated and tolerant of horrible bullying and flaming, or else overmoderrated (a low church Episcopalian/Anglican forum once issued me a warning for daring to mention Dom Gregory Dix). CF.com is a really great blessing for all of us.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,112
5,678
49
The Wild West
✟471,688.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Nothing blesses me more then less words from others and more from scripture. We all have our preferences. I will gravitate towards those others might be bugged by. Theres a lid for every pot it seems lol

Scriptural quotations are good, and I enjoy posts which resonate with them. My main frustration is when people assume there is only one interpretation of a given pericope, and then post that pericope as a proof text in support of whatever they are arguing for, without explaining what the underlying scripture means to them, how they feel it supports their thesis, and why they reached that particular conclusion. This can be done in a minimum of words, far fewer words than the scriptural citation, and can even be done primarily using other scriptural references, which is also good, as it avoids eisegesis.

Eisegesis, where someone quotes in support of their position one random verse or pericope which may or may not be subject to multiple, disputed interpretations, is a serious frustration for many of us. As opposed to exegesis, where the position is derived from a diverse array of scriptural verses and is based on the implication these pericopes have on each others meaning.
 
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,191
Yorktown VA
✟176,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That now-defunct board sounds like it would have been a lot of fun, but I myself am too old for such quarrels, so I for one am glad we have the strong moderation that we do here on CF.com. Otherwise I would just get myself too worked up! I’ve tried other forums on the Net and they all seem to either be undermoderated and tolerant of horrible bullying and flaming, or else overmoderrated (a low church Episcopalian/Anglican forum once issued me a warning for daring to mention Dom Gregory Dix). CF.com is a really great blessing for all of us.

When Beliefnet was still mainly forums, I was the moderator for the EO section. It's a difficult job at times because not only did we have to handle the people who swore we were worshiping Mary, thought we were Jewish, etc., we had a few Old Calendarists who were members of the "Most Holy, Most Greek, Mostest Orthodoxist of All Believers", that drove me crazy trying to moderate things. At least here, I do self-censor a lot :)
 
Upvote 0

chilehed

Veteran
Jul 31, 2003
4,711
1,384
63
Michigan
✟237,116.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Disagree , there is only one Spirit and He teaches the Scriptures , everybody should have Exactly the same understanding of them
there is enought division of denominations alredy
there is no such thing as opinion if you ask me , either provide it based on Scriptures or it doesn't matter what you wrote no need to type "opinions" because its irrelevant what's ones opinion.
TOTALLY missed the point, and proved it at the same time.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,635
7,842
63
Martinez
✟902,646.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Many members including me are in the bad habit of expressing doctrinal positions without either citing sources from which one learned the particular doctrine or scriptural interpretation. Additionally, I think a smaller number of members post their own opinions, which could be valid, about what is the correct reading of scripture or the correct theological doctrine or answer to a question, without clearly expressing whether or not it is an opinion, and if it is a new one, that someone has just become aware of, without expressing this, and being prepared to provide at least some degree of explanation as to how they got there.

I think this is a bad habit, and we need to get out of it. Also, simply citing scriptural verses in support of an opinion, by themselves, without discussing potential alternate interpretations of those verses, is also I think problematic, as it has a tendency to lead to “verse wars” in which people cite verses eisgetically, as if our interpretation of a particular verse, by itself, out of context of the rest of scripture, is sufficient to support our interpretation or opinion regarding another issue, when this is really a case of eisegesis per se.
Well, look at it this way. Most of the time it takes quite a few posts to figure out a person's theological stance and how a new poster should navigate the forum. Though CF does a great job dividing all of us into many factions, it only serves to further the divide. Personally, I have attempted to join a particular group discussion completely contrary to my belief only to quickly get reminded who may be allowed to comment. In other words, if I do not agree with the theological system, "get out".
In writing this I feel rather sad. There are a ton of factions in CF, all by our doing. Be blessed.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Daniel Marsh
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,191
Yorktown VA
✟176,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Well, look at it this way. Most of the time it takes quite a few posts to figure out a person's theological stance. Though CF does a great job dividing all of us into many factions, it only serves us to further divide. Personally, I have attempted to join a particular group discussion completely contrary to my belief only to quickly get reminded who may be allowed to comment. In other words, if I do not agree with the theological system, "get out".
In writing this I feel rather sad. There are a ton of factions in CF, all by our doing. Be blessed.

Do you mean checking what forum you are posting in? I admit, I've jumped to a topic without realizing that it is the the Baptist area first.
 
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,191
Yorktown VA
✟176,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married

I'm perfectly fine with those kinds of restrictions for specific discussions. It could be that someone is inquiring about why the Eastern Orthodox have icons and we're trying to explain it without someone jumping in and quoting "Thou shalt not have graven images" at us.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm perfectly fine with those kinds of restrictions for specific discussions. It could be that someone is inquiring about why the Eastern Orthodox have icons and we're trying to explain it without someone jumping in and quoting "Thou shalt not have graven images" at us.

But if you have "graven images"..?
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Daniel Marsh
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,121
4,191
Yorktown VA
✟176,342.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
But if you have "graven images"..?

I'm just supportive of having areas where those of us of a particular denomination or broad areas such as "Traditional Theology" can be able to discuss things without having random people jump into those areas just to criticize a particular practice.
 
Upvote 0

AubreyM

Well-Known Member
Mar 22, 2021
435
163
33
Alabama
✟24,364.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I've seen posts here on CF that are taken directly from online ministries with specific rules about online sharing. We're not talking about a paraphrase either. I mean a direct copy + paste without attribution. People who do that seem to think there aren't ways of checking that sort of thing.

CF rules prevent calling that sort of thing out. Apparently, this practice of stealing other people's writing without crediting them can't even be referred to as that "P" word that will get you expelled from college or certain careers. So, instead, I silently judge the people who do this.

Reading and found this, have done this before with Shawn McCrannys work off heart of the matter. He has been my teacher and helper of understanding scripture now for a very long time nearly 5 years.

He is one of this type of teachers that says you believe what you are going to check the scriptures, look towards God and Jesus Christ and don’t trust me type of teacher.

He also sees the scriptures as being completely fulfilled, which leads me to see the same thing, he has done over 800 shows all free on YouTube, even does a verse by verse on a lot of the New Testament scriptures on his other YouTube channel.

Both sources are here ; Heart of the matter Shawn then you can also try to find campus, but it is a bit harder to find however if you click other channels on heart of the matter you will see C.A.M.P.U.S.

He also gives sources and things he finds, on the scriptures especially introductions to the scriptures before going into it.

It took him a year or so to go verse by verse on Revelation with a lot of material to source his what he is reading and explaining which is something I’ve also found very interesting about his Character never been taught by anyone like this, but he says don’t trust Him trust God and the Lord Jesus Christ and look towards them.
 
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm just supportive of having areas where those of us of a particular denomination or broad areas such as "Traditional Theology" can be able to discuss things without having random people jump into those areas just to criticize a particular practice.

If you really think that "random people jump into those areas just to criticize a particular practice", you're in the wrong place.

This is the traditional theology forum, it's not the Greek Orthodox forum. There is an Eastern Orthodox forum which may be more suitable if you're looking for those just those who agree with you instead of having a reasonable debate.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Taodeching

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2020
1,540
1,110
51
Southwest
✟60,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Nothing blesses me more then less words from others and more from scripture. We all have our preferences. I will gravitate towards those others might be bugged by. Theres a lid for every pot it seems lol

The problem with just posting verses is it says absolutely nothing. Since this is a discussion board not a posting board and just posting a verse or verses out of context tells no one anything, there should be an explanation with it if the person posting verses whats people to know what they think. Just because a person who posts verses doesn't mean I agree with their ideas, they need to explain so I and most people can see where they are coming from.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,112
5,678
49
The Wild West
✟471,688.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I'm just supportive of having areas where those of us of a particular denomination or broad areas such as "Traditional Theology" can be able to discuss things without having random people jump into those areas just to criticize a particular practice.

Indeed. The Congregational Forums and Traditional Theology are a great blessing in this regard.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,112
5,678
49
The Wild West
✟471,688.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
If you really think that "random people jump into those areas just to criticize a particular practice", you're in the wrong place.

This is the traditional theology forum, it's not the Greek Orthodox forum. There is an Eastern Orthodox forum which may be more suitable if you're looking for those just those who agree with you instead of having a reasonable debate.

Begging your pardon, but we are in fact at present in General Theology.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

:sighing:
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,340
8,742
55
USA
✟686,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I would also add when citing sources that it’s important to acknowledge when a source is disputed or unreliable

This I would have no idea of...

As a matter of fact, what I would consider outright heretical isn't what others do...

So I'm fairly sure as a laymen there are some things I could neither know nor state in a post.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Daniel Marsh
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2BeholdHisGlory

Still on vacation!
Mar 20, 2021
823
414
Outer Space
✟11,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The problem with just posting verses is it says absolutely nothing. Since this is a discussion board not a posting board and just posting a verse or verses out of context tells no one anything, there should be an explanation with it if the person posting verses whats people to know what they think. Just because a person who posts verses doesn't mean I agree with their ideas, they need to explain so I and most people can see where they are coming from.

When reasoning out of the scripture by the use of scripture you can often answer a question that come by the same scripture, and those are the people I am drawn to reading (whether I find they are correct or incorrect) believe it or not for other reasons. Now for you it might say absolutely nothing but for me I prefer it. And just because someone posts only verses doesn't mean I always agree with how they are used either. Sometimes you can tell more precisely what someone is trying to build whether its gone a little left or right, and for me its often easier to respond using scripture (whether to help another out or further confirm something for the person).

I honestly do not have the best communication skills let alone a broad vocabulary so its far more fustrating for me to understand what others are saying half the time (who do have these skills). It can make communicating more difficult, besides being a super slow typer it just takes too much effort. For me copy pasting the things I have pre arranged (as I might understand them) to confirm another poster is easier for me but I also hope my references will make it easier for them to look into these things themselves.

I do understand that many are off put by what I might personally prefer (and thats okay too, we will all have preferences). Very few (in my own experience online) have been able to minister to me concerning the things of God by communicating with me using much of their own words for the most part. Now I have always been like that (consider it a birth defect) others might not relate (some might) I don't know, I can't even tell if its more of a preference towards the one or an aversion towards the other. I am not trying to put anyone down who prefers less scripture. I am only jumping on the thread to be counted as one who feels differently.
 
Upvote 0