• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

On Salvation

Status
Not open for further replies.
W

western kentucky

Guest
FreeinChrist said:
I am not trying to be rude in not responding to you. But at this point, I really don't want to continue in this thread because it has led to what I consider awful statements by one equating God's grace and Christ's sacrifice with our works.
God Bless
I feel that you are taking the statement made by Florida College and running with it.

Obedience + God's grace = salvation

There are two factors in one's salvation. One's obedience to God, and God's grace. If one subtract's obedience from the equation, then one will not equal salvation. If one subtract's God's grace from the equation, then one will also not equal salvation. They both are equally important! One does not earn his salvation, because God does not owe him anything (Rom. 4:5), but does this exclude following God's commands (Matt. 7:21-24)?

You may disagree with this, but is it really that awful to where you can't even finish the discussion?
 
Upvote 0
Lanakila said:
Repentence and confession to God are part of the salvation process. They aren't works, but combine with faith. I think that salvation is being overly complicated here for some reason. I will give my experience now:

When I came to God, I turned to Christ believing that he paid the penalty for my sins, and repented of those same sins, while confessing them at the same time. This all took faith that God was real, was listening, and going to forgive. But, its all similtaneous. In other words its not a later work, but happens all at the same time. God the Holy Spirit is drawing someone to Himself at the time as well.

This isn't a complicated thing, and is easily explained in many gospel tracts.

*Mod Hat On Now*But, I need to remind folks that the rules state that only Protestants may debate in this forum. *Mod Hat Off*
1 cor 12:13For by one Spirit are ww all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be slaves or free, whether we be catholic or Carismatic; and have been all madeto drink into one Spirit.

please do not be a corinthian that supports divisions 1 cor 3:3

as Paul wrote in 4:21 for correction 1john 1:9 or hebrew 12:5-11

if one is spiritual and a carnal believer attack you gal 4:29

count is joy James 1:1-3
 
Upvote 0
This is the Major Question.

How does one get Faith?

Romans 10:17 by hearing

But who gives the ears to hear?

Gal 5:22 from the H.S.

2 tim 3:15 scriptures make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 10:30 I [JC] and the Father are one [of the same]

so since one get faith from God the 3 in 1 and HE promises to perfect HIS work were does works fit into are salvation....


as slaves to Christ we work but not for salvation 1 cor 7:20-24
 
Upvote 0

danceforjoy

Active Member
Oct 15, 2003
104
0
86
North of Brisbane
Visit site
✟22,724.00
Faith
Protestant
If we see baptism only as a form or ritual, we miss the point. Paul in Romans six insists that we follow Christ into the watery grave and then rise with Him in newness of life. Public confession encourages others to follow your example. If you confess Me before man, I will confess you to my Father in heaven etc....many argue that the thief on the cross was saved w/o it, but I am sure and so are you, that if he had the opportunuty, he would have. But the ritual without living the selfless new life doesn't add up, what do you think?
 
Upvote 0

danceforjoy

Active Member
Oct 15, 2003
104
0
86
North of Brisbane
Visit site
✟22,724.00
Faith
Protestant
Hi, a (brother) brethren in CHRIST! It is true what you say, and you are good at shouting it. Do you know that faith also comes to us through the gift of the Holy Ghost? For one of His fruit is, see Gal.5:22 and I think somewhere it says that God gives every man a portion of faith and it is up to us to built on it and to use it wisely.
 
Upvote 0
western kentucky said:
My question:

How did you come to the conclusion that one must have faith, repent, and confess, but not be baptized? Where in the scriptures is repentance and confession both combined with faith?
Faith comes from all three person of the godhead

according to John 16:7-15 show what the Holy Spirit is conviencing an unbeliever so that he can be saved....thus for him to believe he needs to realize that he a sinner and not righteousand that God is going to judge him if he does not confess that he needs God
 
Upvote 0

Ken

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2003
1,137
47
62
North Central Indiana
Visit site
✟1,582.00
Faith
Calvinist
Western Kentucky, how do you respond to the following passages, that unequivocally state that a person is not saved by any observation of a law or commandment (e.g., "be baptized")??

(Gal 2:16 NASB) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

(Gal 3:2-5 NIV) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? {3} Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? {4} Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? {5} Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

(Gal 3:10-12 NIV) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." {11} Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." {12} The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

(Rom 3:20 NASB) because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

(Rom 3:27 NASB) Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

(Rom 3:28 NASB) For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

(Rom 4:2 NASB) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God.

(Rom 4:4 NASB) Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due.

(Rom 4:6 NASB) just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

(Rom 9:31-32 NASB) but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. {32} Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

(Rom 11:6 NASB) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Secondly, the doctrine of justification is one which says that a person is justified (considered righteous) by God's declaring them to be so, abd then, as a result of that imputation, of God considering such a person fully saved in God's eyes, the person then desires to be obedient to the commandments, for instance, the command to be baptized, but such things are a response to God after one is saved, a person is not saved by engaging in this or that activity.....

A person is "born-again" or rather "born from above", and this is the result of the Holy Spirit's activity in the heart of a person, and this is a sovereign work of God, (John 3:8 NASB) "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

So one can never put God into a situation which says to Him, "God, I did this or that, I got baptized, I said a sinner's prayer, I gave 10% of my income to the church, etc etc, and so now, you must grant me salvation based on my obedience." God must not do anything, unless He so chooses. Baptism is simply one one more of thos "things" that one does after becoming a Christian, it in no way whatsoever makes a person a "true Christian".

I believe that Charles Spurgeon dealt with the erroneous doctrine you are professing many years ago in the following, which is an excerpt from a sermon based on
(Mark 16:15-16 NASB) And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. {16} "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Spurgeon said:
"I find that the great error which we have to contend with throughout England (and it is growing more and more), is one in direct opposition to my text, well known to you as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. We will confront this dogma with the assertion, that BAPTISM WITHOUT FAITH SAVES NO ONE. The text says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" but whether a man be baptized or no, it asserts that "he that believeth not shall be d a m n e d:" so that baptism does not save the unbeliever , nay, it does not in any degree exempt him from the common doom of all the ungodly. He may have baptism, or he may not have baptism, but if he believeth not, he shall be in any case most surely
d a m n e d. Let him be baptized by immersion or sprinkling, in his infancy, or in his adult age, if he be not led to put his trust in Jesus Christ—if he remaineth an unbeliever, then this terrible doom is pronounced upon him—"He that believeth not shall be d a m n e d."
 
Upvote 0
danceforjoy said:
Hi, a (brother) brethren in CHRIST! It is true what you say, and you are good at shouting it. Do you know that faith also comes to us through the gift of the Holy Ghost? For one of His fruit is, see Gal.5:22 and I think somewhere it says that God gives every man a portion of faith and it is up to us to built on it and to use it wisely.
people complained about large caps once so I started leaving them in small caps

and started to use the enlarger to highlight messages plus easier to read when writing in someone quote..

But if this bothers you I know you can longsuffer like Christ suffers with us 2 peter 3:9
 
Upvote 0
Ken said:
Western Kentucky, how do you respond to the following passages, that unequivocally state that a person is not saved by any observation of a law or commandment (e.g., "be baptized")??

(Gal 2:16 NASB) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

(Gal 3:2-5 NIV) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? {3} Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? {4} Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? {5} Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

(Gal 3:10-12 NIV) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." {11} Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." {12} The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

(Rom 3:20 NASB) because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

(Rom 3:27 NASB) Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

(Rom 3:28 NASB) For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

(Rom 4:2 NASB) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God.

(Rom 4:4 NASB) Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due.

(Rom 4:6 NASB) just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

(Rom 9:31-32 NASB) but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. {32} Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

(Rom 11:6 NASB) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Secondly, the doctrine of justification is one which says that a person is justified (considered righteous) by God's declaring them to be so, abd then, as a result of that imputation, of God considering such a person fully saved in God's eyes, the person then desires to be obedient to the commandments, for instance, the command to be baptized, but such things are a response to God after one is saved, a person is not saved by engaging in this or that activity.....

A person is "born-again" or rather "born from above", and this is the result of the Holy Spirit's activity in the heart of a person, and this is a sovereign work of God, (John 3:8 NASB) "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

So one can never put God into a situation which says to Him, "God, I did this or that, I got baptized, I said a sinner's prayer, I gave 10% of my income to the church, etc etc, and so now, you must grant me salvation based on my obedience." God must not do anything, unless He so chooses. Baptism is simply one one more of thos "things" that one does after becoming a Christian, it in no way whatsoever makes a person a "true Christian".

I believe that Charles Spurgeon dealt with the erroneous doctrine you are professing many years ago in the following, which is an excerpt from a sermon based on
(Mark 16:15-16 NASB) And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. {16} "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Spurgeon said:
"I find that the great error which we have to contend with throughout England (and it is growing more and more), is one in direct opposition to my text, well known to you as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. We will confront this dogma with the assertion, that BAPTISM WITHOUT FAITH SAVES NO ONE. The text says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" but whether a man be baptized or no, it asserts that "he that believeth not shall be d a m n e d:" so that baptism does not save the unbeliever , nay, it does not in any degree exempt him from the common doom of all the ungodly. He may have baptism, or he may not have baptism, but if he believeth not, he shall be in any case most surely
d a m n e d. Let him be baptized by immersion or sprinkling, in his infancy, or in his adult age, if he be not led to put his trust in Jesus Christ—if he remaineth an unbeliever, then this terrible doom is pronounced upon him—"He that believeth not shall be d a m n e d."
true baptism is done by God 1 cor 12:13

Man can not save anyone ......only God....
 
Upvote 0

danceforjoy

Active Member
Oct 15, 2003
104
0
86
North of Brisbane
Visit site
✟22,724.00
Faith
Protestant
Wonderful reply Ken!
I too like the quote by Spurgeon very much on baptism and faith, but why are we hung up on the question of works? Is it because James says that faith w/o works is dead?
We all must know about big John, a slave that was set free. Even during the auction big John would interupt and shout: " I won't work for anybody." He repeated the same to the kind old man that was successful in bidding for him.
You don't have to John, I came to set you free. John was so smitten because no one ever showed him such love and kindness. No one ever done so much for him and paid such a high price for his freedom. So he said, I will work for you the rest of my life.
We too have been bought with the highest price, the blood of God, and set free from the slavery of sin. Like big John, we too respond the same way. but there are some of us who talk all day, yet refuse to be yoked together with Christ, to those of us, James is saying that this kind of faith is not living faith at all, it must be a working faith. Not in order to be saved, but because we already have been and laying up treasures in the bank of heaven.
 
Upvote 0
A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
people complained about large caps once so I started leaving them in small caps

and started to use the enlarger to highlight messages plus easier to read when writing in someone quote..

But if this bothers you I know you can longsuffer like Christ suffers with us 2 peter 3:9
longsuffering wrong word


forbear is the correct word
 
Upvote 0

Ken

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2003
1,137
47
62
North Central Indiana
Visit site
✟1,582.00
Faith
Calvinist
no danceforjoy, I was not aware of the story of big john... thanks...

hopefully you realize that I am not "hung up" on the question of works, I just wanted to be sure and state that baptism cannot save because the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith alone..... and so, in this thread, we have not (until now) been given the oft quoted book of James, which is where some people are hung up ;) on saying that faith without works is dead, almost thinking that Paul and James say different things in regard to what saving faith looks like.... at any rate, for more on this, (the relationship of faith to works, and that saving faith is never mere intellectual assent) see my post at
http://www.christianforums.com/t64127&page=2

blessings
 
Upvote 0
W

western kentucky

Guest
Ken said:
Western Kentucky, how do you respond to the following passages, that unequivocally state that a person is not saved by any observation of a law or commandment (e.g., "be baptized")??

(Gal 2:16 NASB) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

(Gal 3:2-5 NIV) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? {3} Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? {4} Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? {5} Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

(Gal 3:10-12 NIV) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." {11} Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." {12} The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

(Rom 3:20 NASB) because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

(Rom 3:27 NASB) Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

(Rom 3:28 NASB) For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

(Rom 4:2 NASB) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God.

(Rom 4:4 NASB) Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due.

(Rom 4:6 NASB) just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

(Rom 9:31-32 NASB) but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. {32} Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

(Rom 11:6 NASB) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Secondly, the doctrine of justification is one which says that a person is justified (considered righteous) by God's declaring them to be so, abd then, as a result of that imputation, of God considering such a person fully saved in God's eyes, the person then desires to be obedient to the commandments, for instance, the command to be baptized, but such things are a response to God after one is saved, a person is not saved by engaging in this or that activity.....

A person is "born-again" or rather "born from above", and this is the result of the Holy Spirit's activity in the heart of a person, and this is a sovereign work of God, (John 3:8 NASB) "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

So one can never put God into a situation which says to Him, "God, I did this or that, I got baptized, I said a sinner's prayer, I gave 10% of my income to the church, etc etc, and so now, you must grant me salvation based on my obedience." God must not do anything, unless He so chooses. Baptism is simply one one more of thos "things" that one does after becoming a Christian, it in no way whatsoever makes a person a "true Christian".

I believe that Charles Spurgeon dealt with the erroneous doctrine you are professing many years ago in the following, which is an excerpt from a sermon based on
(Mark 16:15-16 NASB) And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. {16} "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Spurgeon said:
"I find that the great error which we have to contend with throughout England (and it is growing more and more), is one in direct opposition to my text, well known to you as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. We will confront this dogma with the assertion, that BAPTISM WITHOUT FAITH SAVES NO ONE. The text says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" but whether a man be baptized or no, it asserts that "he that believeth not shall be d a m n e d:" so that baptism does not save the unbeliever , nay, it does not in any degree exempt him from the common doom of all the ungodly. He may have baptism, or he may not have baptism, but if he believeth not, he shall be in any case most surely
d a m n e d. Let him be baptized by immersion or sprinkling, in his infancy, or in his adult age, if he be not led to put his trust in Jesus Christ—if he remaineth an unbeliever, then this terrible doom is pronounced upon him—"He that believeth not shall be d a m n e d."
Ken, thank your for your post. I really appreciate it. I am in school right now, and on Thursday I have a 20 page project due, so I will not be able to give you a response until Friday....
 
Upvote 0
F

Florida College

Guest
FreeinChrist said:
WOW, :eek: , that statement is outright blasphemy to God! :(

I will pray for you.
I believe this thread is leading you to make foolish and blasphemous statements like the one above... and I want nothing of that.

Free,

In one sense, I can appreciate your zeal for God, but your zeal must be accompanied with knowledge to be acceptable to God (Romans 10:1-2). I am not convinced that it is.

Your post above strongly reminds me of the reaction that those of the Synagogue of the Freedmen had to Stephen’s teaching in Acts 6:8-14. Those Jews did not receive and search the word as the Bereans would do later in Acts 17:10. Rather, those Jews resorted to false charges of “blasphemy” to stir up opposition to Stephen’s teaching.

My quote that you posted is the last sentence of a paragraph from post #68 on page 7 of this thread. The paragraph is at the top of that page. I am posting it here for quick reference for any who would like to read the quote in its context:

"What you mean is that I am not necessarily agreeing with your way of
thinking. The word "justify" in James 2:21, 24, & 25 is the Greek word "dikaioo." It is the same word that appears in Titus 3:7, "Having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Dikaioo also appears in Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." The use of the word in these passages is obvious - - whatever grace and the blood of Jesus does for us, works does for us."


Rather than show where errors were made (?), you jumped right to the charge of “blasphemy!” It is one thing to make a charge, but it is quite another to prove your point. You gave absolutely no proof or basis for your charge. Did you even bother to look up the Greek word “dikaioo” to see if it really is the word that appears in James 2:21, 24, 25; Titus 3:7; and in Romans 5:9? Or, would that have just taken too much time - - especially when there are charges of “blasphemy” to be made? The high priest, when he didn’t like what he heard, charged Jesus with “blasphemy” in Matthew 26:59-65. The charge seemed justified in his mind. Your action brings to my remembrance Jesus’ words in John 15:20, “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will also keep yours also.”

After making the false charge of “blasphemy,” now you are ready to walk away. As you are leaving, let me be so bold as to remind you of a few open-ended items you have left behind:

1.) You quote Eph. 2:8-9, and say that we are saved by faith alone. Then your thinking shifts to say that faith, repentance, and confession are all included automatically when one believes. John 12:42-43 plainly states that the rulers believed, but would not confess Jesus. Does that sound like faith and confession automatically go hand in hand? No, it does not! Acts 2:38 tells us what those who believed the message that Peter preached on Pentecost were told to do: repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Why would be tell them to repent if it was automatically included in belief? The truth of the matter is, faith, repentance, and confession are not automatically related at all. They are separate and distinct actions.

2.) You acknowledge that salvation is a gift in Ephesians 2:8-9, but fail to acknowledge Joshua chapter 6 and the commands associated with receiving the “gift” on that occasion.. If Eph. 2:8-9 requires no action whatsoever on our part for salvation, then it will harmonize well with other passages i.e. Joshua 6. Does it harmonize? The truth of the matter is that God “gave” the Israelites the city of Jericho (Joshua 6:2), but there were also commands given by God to the Israelites in order for them to receive the city. Likewise, in order to receive the “gift” of salvation today, we must obey all the commands of God regarding salvation under Christ - - faith, repentance, confession and baptism. You accept all of these conditions except baptism. You say it is a work. Where does the scripture say that baptism is any more of a work than faith, repentance, or confession? John 6:28-30 plainly says that faith is a work - - a work that each individual is responsible and accountable for. Rather than accept that, you try to use the rest of John chapter 6 to prove that verses 28-30 don’t mean what they say. Even a novice bible student should realize from these passages that Jesus is answering the question he was asked by telling the people “to believe.” An average student in Christianity 101 would understand Jesus’ answer to the question that he was asked.

3.) You conclude that the “works” of Eph. 2:9 are “all” works, rather than concluding that he is specifically addressing a certain type of works .You fail to realize that there many different types of works discussed in the N.T. - - (here is just a quick sampling) - - good works (Matt. 5:6), works of Christ (Matt. 11:2), man’s works (Matt. 16:27), works of Abraham (John 8:39), works of God (John 9:3), idolatrous works (Acts 7:41), works of righteousness (Acts 10:35), works of repentance (Acts 26:20), works of the law of Moses (Romans 3:27), works of darkness (Romans 13:12), works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19), wicked works (Col. 1:21), our works (2 Tim. 1:9), dead works (Heb. 6:1), works of the devil (1 John 3:8), Cain’s works (1 John 3:12), first works (Rev. 2:5), Babylon’s works (Rev. 18:6), and the works of the dead (Rev. 20:12). The works that Ephesians 2:9 is focusing on are of the nature that one could boast about them. Ultimately, whatever works one decides are included in Eph. 2:9 will agree with other scriptures. It will agree with what people are told to do to be saved under the law of Christ. The understanding of the works that are not required for salvation in Eph. 2:8-9 will agree with passages that tell us what is required for salvation: passages such as John 3:16; Luke 13:3,5 ; Matt. 10:32-33 ; Mark 16:16 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 8:12-13 ; Acts 8: 35-39 ; Acts 10:47-48 ; Acts 16: 30-33 ; Acts 17:30 ; Acts 22:16 ; 1 Peter 3:20-21 ; 2 Thess. 1:8 ; & Heb. 5:9.

4.) You want to say that baptism is a work - - “an outward confession of an inward change” (post #52 on p. 6) - - therefore, not required for salvation. Your reasoning is based on the baptism of John. The baptism of John is described in Matthew 3:1-8. Here is the point that I have not seen you acknowledge at any point in this study: the baptism of John is not the same as the baptism in the name of Christ (Acts 18:24-26, 19:1-5). The baptism that Jesus commands is required for salvation (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 22:16 ; John 3:3-5 & Rom. 6:3-11, and 1 Peter 3:20-21. It is a baptism in water (Acts 8:35-39, 1 Pet. 3:20-21), but clearly not for the same purpose as the baptism of John. How is it determined that baptism in the name of the Lord is any more of a work than faith, repentance, or confession? They are all simply commands of the Lord that must be obeyed.

5.) You attempted to “dodge” Mark 16:16 by your reasoning that the last 12 verses of Mark 16 were left out of two early manuscripts. So, how many manuscripts were the verses in? Is your concern really about the last 12 verses of chapter 16, or about one particular verse - - verse 16?

6.) You also attempted to “dodge” Acts 2:38 by quoting from the Greek scholar Zodhiates (Spiros, I assume). So, how did you determine that Zodhiates’ commentary is accurate? I read that his works are very questionable because he relies heavily on the modern Greek, instead of the Koine Greek. Nevertheless, I see the plain structure of Acts 2:38 - - repentance + baptism = remission of sins. I have posted earlier comments about this verse. “And” is a coordinating conjunction that connects two equal parts. “For” is the Greek word “eis,” which also appears in Matt. 26:28 and Rom. 4:5. I noticed that you made no comments about “eis” in those verses. But if the remission of sins precedes repentance and baptism in Acts 2:38, then the remission of sins precedes the shedding of Jesus’ blood in Matt. 26:28, and righteousness precedes faith in Romans 4:5. Would you accept those conclusions? Here is the jist of Acts 2:38: “and” connects repentance and baptism; repentance and baptism are “for” (unto) the remission of sins - - to summarize, both repentance and baptism are necessary for the remission of sins. Why would you choose a commentary of someone who is unknown by many (or all) of us? Why not choose reputable Greek scholars’ works, such as Strong’s, Vines’, and Young’s? It is not hard to look up the various Greek words given in the text, consider the definitions offered, and compare how the Greek words are used in other passages of scripture. If Zodhiates’ commentary about Acts 2:38 is correct - - that repentance is for salvation and baptism is “an external identification visible by others” - - then why didn’t the various Greek scholars who have translated the scriptures at various times over hundreds of years translate Acts 2:38 with the meaning that he described? I know of no credible translation that renders Acts 2:38 with the reading that Zodhiates suggests. Are you aware of any? Is anyone else aware of any?

7.) Finally, you said that that Matt. 7:21-23 is focusing on people that were trying to serve God by works. Jesus tells us what these folks were lacking in verse 21 - - they said, "Lord, Lord," but did not do the Father's will. What these verses tell us in this glimpse of the judgment is that "many" (vs. 22) will be thoroughly convinced they are saved. They will attempt to reason with the Lord on how they have served him. Jesus will reply, "I never knew; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Here is the scene: people were calling out to the Lord, but not doing God's will. They are convinced that they are serving him, but he never knew them. Why? They did not do God's will. They acted outside the law of Christ. The scene in Matt. 7:21-23 is not about people that were trying to work their way into heaven - - it is about people who didn't obey God's will and were never saved in the first place. They thought they were saved, but weren't. This teaching demands that we give the utmost attention to the gospel plan of salvation.

As you depart, don’t forget to brush the dust off that is settling on you (Acts 13:50-51)!

FC
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.